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What are your thoughts about the Scapa Flow? should it remain as a memorial like the AZ? Should they really be for sale? should it be left alone? Or it’s an opportunity for Wargaming (WoWs) to Learn more from these beasts for future updates/improvements/upgrades 

 

theres no right or or wrong answers 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-48684400

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Sell it for scrap....Keeping i alive Is like watching and refusing to take a family member off life support.

Their is no profit for history/culture. All our Revolutionary war battle sites are strip malls or parking lots.

IMO, by scraping it,  is the humane choice to let the old girl go in peace

Edited by Navalpride33
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6 minutes ago, Sierra_Alarid said:

What are your thoughts about the Scapa Flow? should it remain as a memorial like the AZ? Should they really be for sale? should it be left alone? Or it’s an opportunity for Wargaming (WoWs) to Learn more from these beasts for future updates/improvements/upgrades 

 

theres no right or or wrong answers 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-48684400

It is the diving rights for recreational diving that are being sold here and unlike the Arizona are not war graves.

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I cannot say whether what's been happening at Scapa Flow is right or wrong.

What I can say is that Scapa flow should not ever be made into a port in WoWs. Seriously people the place was not a real port or naval base. It was an anchorage in one of the most featureless and desolate places in northern Scotland

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Given whats on sale is already owned then its fine. Its the right to dive on those ships. There is a Wargrave in the flow but it has nothing to do with the German ships.

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15 minutes ago, silverdahc said:

Were there any lives lost at scappa flow?

Yes.  Many.

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Agreed It’ll be beneficial to Scrap them  coins/razor blades/Firearms/Steel for construction/ etc could be refined and turned into something else

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18 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Yes.  Many.

9 German sailors when the German High Seas Fleet was scuttled at the end of WW1. 

833 when the Ark Royal was torpedoed in WW2.

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14 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Yes.  Many.

I would note thought that particular wreck is not the one being sold. Nine Germans were killed in the scuttling but they are not interred in the wrecks.

During the Second World War however, the Revenge Class Battleship Royal Oak was torpedoed by a particularly bold U-Boat raid. 833 men died over a hundred of which were boys bellow the age of 18. Royal Oak is a protected war grave and not for sale (she also can't be dived on by civilians).

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34 minutes ago, Sierra_Alarid said:

What are your thoughts about the Scapa Flow? should it remain as a memorial like the AZ? Should they really be for sale? should it be left alone? Or it’s an opportunity for Wargaming (WoWs) to Learn more from these beasts for future updates/improvements/upgrades 

 

theres no right or or wrong answers 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-48684400

 

27 minutes ago, silverdahc said:

Were there any lives lost at scappa flow?

 

Is the USS Arizona the tomb?

 

11 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Yes.  Many.

From what I am aware, there are only 4 wrecks in Scapa Flow in which life was lost during the Wars.

UB-116, HMS Royal Oak, HMS Vanguard, and HMS Hampshire.

All are protected sites and no diving is permitted on them.

The remains  of the German High Seas fleet is questionable. They were 'scuttled' by the Germans and other then in one case, most ships sank without loss of life from the crews. They really can't be considered War graves and untouchable as they were basically abandoned by their crews.

 Most of the sunken warships were salvaged in the 30s. The remaining ships and ship parts are accessible to those with the skills and the permits. The key point here is the salvage rights. Those were originally purchased/obtained around 1922 from the British Admiralty. 45 of the 52 ships scuttled were recovered. Those that remain would likely have also been salvaged had WW2 not occurred.

The company that owned the 'rights' to the remaining wrecks went into receivership and, like it or not, the rights to those sunken ships are considered company 'assets'.

Believe it or not, Titanic and Lusitania are also 'owned' by someone with the salvage rights. 

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Many were already salvaged for scrap, sold to Hitler and turned into U Boats. The German crews were executed by the British and their grave site is a memorial.

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49 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Yes.  Many.

 Yeah but are we talking about the U-boat attacks on scapa flow or the the scuttling of the German fleet?

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These are important places in history and should not be torn from the bottom to make useless stuff that we will throw away in six months. And by the way, shipwrecks are not a great source of steel, especially ones that have been sitting on the bottom for over 100 years. The metal is rusted, worn, flimsy, and oxidized. Certainly not something you want to build skyscrapers out of.

I think that these wrecks are more valuable as a piece of history and send a message about that time. About the constructs of war. That it was noble, in the germans eyes at least, to scuttle the ship and risk your life to stop the ships from falling into the hands of the enemy.

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I feel sorry for the dude who bought them for salvage then had that taken away from him.

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22 minutes ago, mcgibe said:

These are important places in history and should not be torn from the bottom to make useless stuff that we will throw away in six months. And by the way, shipwrecks are not a great source of steel, especially ones that have been sitting on the bottom for over 100 years. The metal is rusted, worn, flimsy, and oxidized. Certainly not something you want to build skyscrapers out of.

I think that these wrecks are more valuable as a piece of history and send a message about that time. About the constructs of war. That it was noble, in the germans eyes at least, to scuttle the ship and risk your life to stop the ships from falling into the hands of the enemy.

They can't be salvaged due to their protected status under a law.

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19 minutes ago, mcgibe said:

These are important places in history and should not be torn from the bottom to make useless stuff that we will throw away in six months. And by the way, shipwrecks are not a great source of steel, especially ones that have been sitting on the bottom for over 100 years. The metal is rusted, worn, flimsy, and oxidized. Certainly not something you want to build skyscrapers out of.

I think that these wrecks are more valuable as a piece of history and send a message about that time. About the constructs of war. That it was noble, in the germans eyes at least, to scuttle the ship and risk your life to stop the ships from falling into the hands of the enemy.

I am with @mcgibe on this one. Let it be a place for divers to discover the wrecks and celebrate the history of that time frame. Also, tourism dollars will help the local economy as if you look at it on a map Scapa flow aka the Orkney Islands are kinda out in the middle of nowhere. Now I don't dive but for the opportunity to explore some of these wrecks up close I would learn how to.

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I just think that even if these wrecks aren't war graves, they should still be left as monuments of history. I'm glad that places like the Arizona are protected from people that believe it's ok to dredge up a war grave without sympathy for the ones who gave their lives there. At least there are a few nice things in the world

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37 minutes ago, mcgibe said:

These are important places in history and should not be torn from the bottom to make useless stuff that we will throw away in six months. And by the way, shipwrecks are not a great source of steel, especially ones that have been sitting on the bottom for over 100 years. The metal is rusted, worn, flimsy, and oxidized. Certainly not something you want to build skyscrapers out of.

I think that these wrecks are more valuable as a piece of history and send a message about that time. About the constructs of war. That it was noble, in the germans eyes at least, to scuttle the ship and risk your life to stop the ships from falling into the hands of the enemy.

Uh, not like I necessarily disagree with the overall thrust of the argument - as in, though these are not war graves I'd prefer old ships to not be salvaged (and it's not happening regardless; as already pointed out, what's being sold is NOT the right to do that) - but the highlighted part of that argument is incredibly ignorant.

Shipwrecks from the world wars are INCREDIBLY valuable in terms of steel, and it's one key reason why there's so much illegal salvaging of war graves in the Pacific (and in parts of the North Atlantic too - England's done a terrible job of protecting their wrecks). Why? Because it's low-background steel - or in other words, steel produced before nuclear tests started getting carried out. Basically ALL steel produced since is contaminated with some level of radiation due to how it's produced - and the lack of such is insanely valuable for any number of incredibly delicate equipment and measuring instruments.

Edited by NozTheWhiteDawn

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33 minutes ago, mcgibe said:

These are important places in history and should not be torn from the bottom to make useless stuff that we will throw away in six months. And by the way, shipwrecks are not a great source of steel, especially ones that have been sitting on the bottom for over 100 years. The metal is rusted, worn, flimsy, and oxidized. Certainly not something you want to build skyscrapers out of.

I think that these wrecks are more valuable as a piece of history and send a message about that time. About the constructs of war. That it was noble, in the germans eyes at least, to scuttle the ship and risk your life to stop the ships from falling into the hands of the enemy.

10 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

They can't be salvaged due to their protected status under a law.

 

It is true there is a special law for these wrecks because they are not war graves, however, the metal is extremely valuable for practical reasons. This is due to the metal having originally been refined before the first atom bomb was detonated. It's the biggest reason war graves keep getting looted.

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1 minute ago, NozTheWhiteDawn said:

Uh, not like I necessarily disagree with the overall thrust of the argument - as in, though these are not war graves I'd prefer world war-era ships to not be salvaged (and it's not happening regardless; as already pointed out, what's being sold is NOT the right to do that) - but the highlighted part of that argument is incredibly ignorant.

Shipwrecks from the world wars are INCREDIBLY valuable in terms of steel, and it's why there' so much illegal salvaging of war graves in the Pacific (and in parts of the North Atlantic too - England's done a terrible job of protecting their wrecks). Why? Because it's low-background steel - or in other words, steel produced before nuclear tests started getting carried out. Basically ALL steel produced since is contaminated with some level of radiation due to how it's produced - and that is insanely valuable for any number of incredibly delicate equipment.

Maybe ones from 50 or so years ago, but not ones from 100 years. The steel is usually not as good as stuff you can make from forges. It doesn't stop looters though and that's a problem

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2 hours ago, BTed72 said:

I am with @mcgibe on this one. Let it be a place for divers to discover the wrecks and celebrate the history of that time frame. Also, tourism dollars will help the local economy as if you look at it on a map Scapa flow aka the Orkney Islands are kinda out in the middle of nowhere. Now I don't dive but for the opportunity to explore some of these wrecks up close I would learn how to.

2 hours ago, mcgibe said:

These are important places in history and should not be torn from the bottom to make useless stuff that we will throw away in six months. And by the way, shipwrecks are not a great source of steel, especially ones that have been sitting on the bottom for over 100 years. The metal is rusted, worn, flimsy, and oxidized. Certainly not something you want to build skyscrapers out of.

I think that these wrecks are more valuable as a piece of history and send a message about that time. About the constructs of war. That it was noble, in the germans eyes at least, to scuttle the ship and risk your life to stop the ships from falling into the hands of the enemy.

1 hour ago, mcgibe said:

I just think that even if these wrecks aren't war graves, they should still be left as monuments of history. I'm glad that places like the Arizona are protected from people that believe it's ok to dredge up a war grave without sympathy for the ones who gave their lives there. At least there are a few nice things in the world

For anyone who's worried that wrecks will be raised and scrapped, I would like to mention that are already laws preventing that as they are considered "underwater monuments". What's for sale here is the diving rights and maybe some minor artifact collection. Maybe, it would be up to the buyer.

Anyway the  remaining High Seas Fleet wrecks at Scapa Flow are in a rather unique position. Unlike the vast majority of wrecks which aren't monitored in any way, these are in a secure harbor with plenty of military craft still milling about. When you own a wreck you also get the rights to sell dives on it but that doesn't stop most people in the saw way being designated a war grave did not protect Exeter from the scrappers. At Scapa Flow however it just isn't worth the risk for an illegal dive.

The salient and valuable thing being sold are the diving rights to the wrecks, not their salvage value.  It will be an interesting sale as, again, the Scapa Flow wrecks are unusually profitable as dive sights.

Edited by Wows_Nightly_News

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3 minutes ago, mcgibe said:

Maybe ones from 50 or so years ago, but not ones from 100 years. The steel is usually not as good as stuff you can make from forges. It doesn't stop looters though and that's a problem

It's not the quality that's the issue here, it's the fact, pure and simple, that the steel was forged before the atomic tests. This isn't steel being used to make some i-beams or whatever, it's needed for extremely precise measuring equipment that cannot afford any radioactive contamination - stuff like geiger counters or extremely precise medical or space monitoring equipment. And age is hardly the huge factor you seem to be thinking - you do realize that WW2 wrecks are right around 80 years old, right? Not 50?

And yes, it's theoretically possible to make new low-background steel, but it is not remotely cheap - it's both expensive and time-consuming far, FAR beyond what's needed for basically every other steel application (for one, you're basically talking having to do isotope separation of the air you're using; for another, you need access to iron ore and coal deposits that were not even remotely exposed to the air of the last 70 or so year - and keep them that way too). Combine that with the tiny market for it, and it's not remotely cost efficient - it's just that while it's a tiny market, it's also a vital one, which means access to the stuff is still needed.

The problem is dying off - the biggest issue is one particular radioactive isotope of Cobalt with a half-life of 5 years - but it'll be a while yet before it's good enough. And that's assuming no one starts doing open-air testing again. Meanwhile, it's still extremely valuable and an incredibly lucrative thing to salvage.

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Isn't this space already on some historical register now? We can speak in generalities though.

 

For profit enterprises that force a decision between extraction/exploitation or using a site/resource for culture/edification really isn't much of a decision to me considering I value culture and edification. I suppose I can see why harvesting cheap money can have value, but you rob your people by not preserving something like this.

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3 minutes ago, Pytheas said:

Isn't this space already on some historical register now? We can speak in generalities though.

Yes what's being sold is the diving rights and "light object salvage" (trinkets found in the wrecks). The ships themselves are protected.

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