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SireneRacker

Hindenburg/Roon buff, why I think it's an unfavorable approach, and my thoughts on the T8-10 KM CAs

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Heyo, wall of text alert, enjoy the read, I've been wanting to get this off my chest for some time now.

 

There's a WG stream going on as I write this, in which a buff to the German Tier X Cruiser Hindenburg was announced (also includes Roon, same buff btw).

 

The buff in question was stated to be a decrease in reload from 11 seconds to 10.5 seconds. Now, let me start this by saying that I find it good that WG is finally getting around to buffing Hindenburg. The game has not been kind to her ever since her initial nerf where the reload was increased from 10 to 11 seconds. To list a few things that happened, we saw the large wave of buffs to numerous T10s which raised the average performance of the T10 ship, whereas Hindenburg around that time got nerfed. Republique saw more widespread use, for those of you unaware, Republique is one of the most terrifying ships to face in Hindenburg, more on that later. And last one worthy of mention are the Legendary Upgrades, where Hindenburg got a rather mediocre one, again more on that later.

 

So, does this buff to her dpm finally solve the issues she has? In my eyes, no, it doesn't. It doesn't even touch her main issue, and that of the German T8-10 Cruisers.

 

While the dpm was no longer what it used to be, it's still usable. Her AP hits just as hard provided it penetrates, the HE still penetrates the 50mm plating. She was never a dpm machine, more of an opportunist that would seek AP opportunities whenever possible.

 

Same unfortunately also applies to her buff some time ago, where she gained an extra heal charge. A fifth Repair Party charge is a situational tool, only being of any use when four heals have been used and the fifth one gets activated. If this does not happen in a match, then this buff did not show any effect in said match.

 

What is Hindenburg's main issue? It's a feature of her that got powercrept. For those that have been around for some time, the term “Battleship Hindenburg” should not be uncommon. This reputation was gained for a few reasons. For one the turtleback armor which allowed her to pull some ridiculous moves in brawls, and then most importantly the 30mm midship section which allowed her to bounce all AP shells but the ones fired by Yamato, Musashi and 457mm Conqueror (which no one used, that didn't change). So basically, angle well and you can absorb a lot of damage.

 

She still has those 30mm armor. But unfortunately for her there are plenty of ships that have been released since then, and more in the pipeline. Republique being chief among them. Why her? Because she amplifies the problems that Hindenburg has. Hindy's sluggish handling is nothing new, so any Republique with two baguettes to rub together (lewd) will not struggle to land shells, and when they land, they hurt. And there is no way for Hindenburg to counter this threat at all. Angling doesn't work, the concealment is mediocre, so are her dodging abilities. What remains is literally running away and trying to slowly wear the Republique down while 10k damage salvos will return to you every 20something seconds.

 

So in short, 30mm is no longer worth what it once was, and Hindenburg is among the ones that is hit the most by this slow process.

 

What remains is the turtleback, but I shouldn't have to explain how passive the meta especially on NA is. Anyone hoping to capitalize on the turtleback on a regular basis will be left disappointed.

 

Is this an unsolvable issue? No. It can be fixed relatively easily, and WG already set the foundation for this some time ago when announcing possible upcoming changes to the midship plating of cruisers. Exactly the issue Hindenburg has, midship plating. Since then this idea has been surrounded by silence from WG's end, though I spent time on thinking about what possibilities there are for Hindenburg.

 

Since this would be a significant buff to Hindenburg's survivability, it should not surprise that there has to be something in exchange that Hindenburg will sacrifice. For this the most suitable thing would be the third (or fifth if maxed out) Repair Party charge. So while Hindenburg gains the ability to avoid more damage, she pays by being able to recover less damage. A good trade-off.

 

As clarification, these values would only affect the midship section, meaning central upper deck and upper belt. Bow and stern remain untouched.

  1. 31mm: An unconventional value for sure. This mainly excludes overmatching from Republique's 431mm guns.

  2. 32mm: Widely known value. No overmatch from guns up until 457mm, and German 128mm Secondaries lose the ability to penetrate the armor without the IFHE-skill

  3. 33mm: Again unconventional, but this one does a whole lot more. No AP overmatch at all (like Moskva/Stalingrad), Japanese 100mm+IFHE and up to 152mm+IFHE will no longer penetrate the midship section. Heavy Cruisers remain completely unaffected.

  4. 34mm: 203mm HE and 155mm+IFHE no longer penetrate the midship.

 

I do not want to say “Option X is the best, because I know for sure”. I don't know for sure what would be the most balanced option. Hence why I listed them all. For one they provide food for thought, and secondly it would be more logical if WG tested Hindenburg with these values to determine which one is the most balanced one.

 

As a final word, or sort of, how does this transfer to Admiral Hipper and Roon? They have similar issues, and Roon is evidently in need of buffs as well while Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen are at least indicated to be rather poor, given the server stats we can access. This concept should thus be applied to them as well, and the question arises how much the midship armor could be.

 

  1. 28mm: Doesn't change anything of significance. No really.

  2. 29mm: 413mm and below will bounce, however GK's 420mm shells and anything larger will slice through like a hot knife through butter. Want to make the 420mm guns have some sort of overmatch advantage, this is how you do that.

  3. 30mm: Same old, no overmatch from less than 431mm, 180mm HE shatters

 

Different values can be applied for different tiers, obviously.

 

But is an improved miship section desirable? Personally I shall say, most certainly. The beautiful thing about midship sections in that armor range is that they do not affect your gameplay unless you captalize on them. Show broadside and it'll do nothing. Sit nose in and again it won't do you any good. Only when being properly angled and when keeping the surroundings in check will this pay off. In other words, midship armor can be a skill-based option to migitate incoming AP fire. I say very much yes to this.

 

Cheers~

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8 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Personally, I don't think Hindenburg needs any changes, even the upcoming reload buff.

uOgjunw.jpg

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/na/ship_20190330.html

She is doing fine.

Problem with server stats like that is that they spit out an average from the entire server. Hindenburg is a ship that relies more on her skill floor than others, while having a not-so-high skill ceiling. This makes her seem more potent in the hands of the average and below average player. It's nice to use server stats to get a rough indication, but I would not go beyond that point. 

Accoring to the same stat sheet, Bismarck drastically outperforms NC. And I don't think we have to argue about NC being a vastly superior ship :Smile-_tongue:

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10 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

Problem with server stats like that is that they spit out an average from the entire server. Hindenburg is a ship that relies more on her skill floor than others, while having a not-so-high skill ceiling. This makes her seem more potent in the hands of the average and below average player. It's nice to use server stats to get a rough indication, but I would not go beyond that point. 

Accoring to the same stat sheet, Bismarck drastically outperforms NC. And I don't think we have to argue about NC being a vastly superior ship :Smile-_tongue:

Sorry, I'm still not sold.  With the similar Cruisers that play the same roles, Hindenburg's performance is inline with them.  Henri IV is the one that breaks things (I really don't think WG thought it through well enough handing out MBRB like that).

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20 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Sorry, I'm still not sold.  With the similar Cruisers that play the same roles, Hindenburg's performance is inline with them.  Henri IV is the one that breaks things (I really don't think WG thought it through well enough handing out MBRB like that).

From the T10 Cruisers that follow Hindenburg‘s general playstyle (Zao and Henri), both outperform her in most categories. Henri‘s current state is utterly broken, no debate, but Zao does not enjoy that status.

And this is while keeping in mind that Zao is a lot less forgiving to play. 

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SirenRacker you did a great job presenting your thoughts which obviously show that you have devoted a great deal of time and effort studying this before arriving at your suggestion for a "fix."     Certainly, I am not well enough versed in this game to be able to arrive at a decision on this, and I do play the Hindenburg, using her in ranked this time.    So Kudo's to you for your thoughts on this ship and how to improve her play.

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On 6/20/2019 at 7:08 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Personally, I don't think Hindenburg needs any changes, even the upcoming reload buff.

uOgjunw.jpg

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/na/ship_20190330.html

She is doing fine.

This shows she has second to worst win % and worst warship destroyed ratio.  Only reason Hinden isn't worst win % is because Salem is a coal ship allowing people to get their hands on a tier 10 ship.

Same with kill/death Hinden would be worst except for Salem.  I think we can all agree Salem should not be included in comparison because many players have it before they are even close to tier 10. 

Sorry also worst loss rate behind Salem as well.

Edited by 0NutsNBolts0

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There are few issues with the Hindenburg. The ship is a collection of features that are a contradiction, while being a "jack of all trades  master of none"  it some how manages to do below average in each role.

Potential Roles/Play-style

Spoiler

"Turtle back" armor + 6km hydro + 6km torpedoes,  but it is one of the slower Cruisers and has concealment that is on par with other Battleships
  Zao or Minotaur may be better for "YOLO" torp runs.

Kiting HE Spam?  Henry / Zao do it better.

Need to burn down/ pen 50mm decks ? Henry with IFHE does it better.

Need to "Surprise!" other cruisers broadsides with AP salvos? Zao, Des Moines, Minotaur or Conquer do it better

Actual Play-style

Spoiler


In order to do more then just annoy the enemy with your HE, one has to use all 4 guns form "safe distance" of about 15 ~ 17 km.
Any closer and there is not enough time to angle or dodge incoming fire, due to ship size / handling
Any further away and the shell air drag/ flight time make it "challenging" to hit anything other then a reversing BB

AP is very situational, and most effective against perfect cruiser/ battleship broadside and slightly angled DDs (10º~ 30º, 0º = perfectly broadside)

On a flip side, the "shell drag" can cause some interesting situations against mid~long range targets.
If positioned correctly behind an island one can pretend to act like an American cruiser.
(mean while Rammstein Amerika is playing somewhere in a distance )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr8ljRgcJNM

Hindenburg doesn't do anything particularly well other being a "damage sponge" and "bait for 16 inch AP."  Not exactly a role suited for a cruiser.

Increasing mid deck and casement armor to 32mm and reducing number of  repair charges by 1, would be a good place to start.

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On 6/22/2019 at 7:08 AM, SireneRacker said:

From the T10 Cruisers that follow Hindenburg‘s general playstyle (Zao and Henri), both outperform her in most categories. Henri‘s current state is utterly broken, no debate, but Zao does not enjoy that status.

And this is while keeping in mind that Zao is a lot less forgiving to play. 

It's still in the same realm of performance with Zao, Moskva.  Henri IV, Stalingrad break things.  They're broken ships.

On 6/22/2019 at 8:38 AM, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

This shows she has second to worst win % and worst warship destroyed ratio.  Only reason Hinden isn't worst win % is because Salem is a coal ship allowing people to get their hands on a tier 10 ship.

Same with kill/death Hinden would be worst except for Salem.  I think we can all agree Salem should not be included in comparison because many players have it before they are even close to tier 10. 

Sorry also worst loss rate behind Salem as well.

Second to worst WR% but it's still within what's typical for Tier X Cruisers.  Exclude the broken Henri IV, Stalingrad and what do you have:

DM 50.45%

Moskva 49.98%

Worcester 49.85%

Minotaur 49.84%

Zao 49.59%

Hindenburg 48.55%

Salem 47.26% - We know how this goes for her being a more accessible Coal Ship.

 

What we have here is when you exclude broken Henri IV and Stalingrad, the Tier X Cruisers' Win Rates all fall inline within a 2% spread.  This is fantastic.

 

The answer to me is obvious and simple.  Nerf Henri IV and Stalingrad.  Because the other Tier X Cruisers to me look quite inline to each other.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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49 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's still in the same realm of performance with Zao, Moskva.  Henri IV, Stalingrad break things.  They're broken ships.

I wouldn't compare Hindenburg with Moskva or Stalingrad. They play too differently to draw direct comparisons. Stalingrad's stats (just like Salems) are not usable due to their premium ship status.

So only being able to compare with Zao and Henri, Henri is broken which is no surprise, that leaves Zao:

Zao has 1.04% WR.
Zao deals on average 9% more damage.
Zao kills on average 0.12 ships more per match (17% higher)
Zao's SR is 4.37% higher (or a 12% increase)
Zao has a 4.1% higher hit ratio (or a 13% increase)

And now we have to add some external factors so that we can properly understand those numbers:

- Hindenburg's skill floor is significantly lower, as is her skill ceiling
- Zao is objectively speaking more vulnerable to incoming fire

And all this results in Hindenburg, a ship that should be a lot easier to play than Zao, performing objectively worse than her. And that is a problem.

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14 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

I wouldn't compare Hindenburg with Moskva or Stalingrad. They play too differently to draw direct comparisons. Stalingrad's stats (just like Salems) are not usable due to their premium ship status.

So only being able to compare with Zao and Henri, Henri is broken which is no surprise, that leaves Zao:

Zao has 1.04% WR.
Zao deals on average 9% more damage.
Zao kills on average 0.12 ships more per match (17% higher)
Zao's SR is 4.37% higher (or a 12% increase)
Zao has a 4.1% higher hit ratio (or a 13% increase)

And now we have to add some external factors so that we can properly understand those numbers:

- Hindenburg's skill floor is significantly lower, as is her skill ceiling
- Zao is objectively speaking more vulnerable to incoming fire

And all this results in Hindenburg, a ship that should be a lot easier to play than Zao, performing objectively worse than her. And that is a problem.

The splits aren't large enough to merit big chances go Hindenburg.  If we were seeing splits as large as say, the comedy that's going on in Tier V Battleships, then we'd have something to go on.  But the performance between them is close enough.

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3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The splits aren't large enough to merit big chances go Hindenburg.  If we were seeing splits as large as say, the comedy that's going on in Tier V Battleships, then we'd have something to go on.  But the performance between them is close enough.

No, it isn‘t.

I have been stating a few times already that these stats can not be directly compared (or well, you can, just don‘t expect something usable to come out of it). The difference in skill floors excludes that possibility.

The same server stats would try to tell you that Bismarck and North Carolina are roughly on the same level, although Bismarck is performing a tad bit better than NC. And that this is about as false as it can be goes without saying.

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Seems to me all the heavy hitting CAs have been obselete since Stalingrad arrived, wouldn't nerfing the latter to averageness (personal neoligism) help solve some of the issues? I wouldn't want to deprive République of breakfast.

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Hey

I think its complete and utter garbage how Wargaming had manipulated the Roon/Hindy issue.  The ships used to be very good and were always popular; then something changed with how they took/dealt damage and I called it out as a night and day change.  Then they decided to nerf the reload by 1 second; doesn't sound like much but the ships were under performing and less popular in clan battles and really not performing very well.  Then they said well it's not doing so good, so we will give it an extra heal charge.  Well what do you know, it's still under performing, so now, let's increase the ROF by a 1/2 second.  Why in the heck didn't you just leave it alone to begin with?  Was it a case of we can't have this Axis ship out performing all others, because that's what it seemed like.  About that time is when Moskva got it's armor buff which was also passed onto Stalingrad and we know how that ship performs.  All of these manipulations take away from the consistency of the game and makes game play less fun, less consistent, less enjoyable.  Buff the under performing ship when needed but leave the good ones alone.  My 2 cents for what little it's worth.

 

Pete

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17 hours ago, LoveBote said:

Seems to me all the heavy hitting CAs have been obselete since Stalingrad arrived, wouldn't nerfing the latter to averageness (personal neoligism) help solve some of the issues? I wouldn't want to deprive République of breakfast.

I don't think that Stalingrad is to blame for Hindenburg's issues. The ship that primarily replaced Hindenburg was Henri which can do everything Hindenburg does, and adds a bloody speed boost and MBRB on top. And then there were some further nails in Hindenburg's coffin, the devaluation of 30mm armor being most noticable.

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5 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

I don't think that Stalingrad is to blame for Hindenburg's issues. The ship that primarily replaced Hindenburg was Henri which can do everything Hindenburg does, and adds a bloody speed boost and MBRB on top. And then there were some further nails in Hindenburg's coffin, the devaluation of 30mm armor being most noticable.

I can still remember the days when players would speak of Godenburg with pride, or fear, but always wonder. Nowadays people are more likely to blush at mention of Hindy. But yeh you are right, she has been power creeped on one hand, undercut with devalued armour on the other.

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On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 2:51 AM, LoveBote said:

I can still remember the days when players would speak of Godenburg with pride, or fear, but always wonder. Nowadays people are more likely to blush at mention of Hindy. But yeh you are right, she has been power creeped on one hand, undercut with devalued armour on the other.

Hey

I called this out a while back just before 2 clan battle season ago and it was a night and day difference in how she could not tank damage like before, then came the reload nerf which everyone said was only 1 second, then Wargaming decided it was failing so they gave it another heal, still failing, then they talked about buffing the reload by another 1/2 second.  Why in the heck didn't they just leave it along and keep the reload at 10seconds in the first place, all of this work was for nothing.  But then we can't have the perennial favorite T10 cruiser (German to boot) beating up on everyone else, especially Moskva.   Concentrate on ships that actually need help and quit messing with the ones that don't.  No wonder you don't see that many Hindy's/Roon like you used to.  Thank you NERF bat.

 

Pete

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So Hindy went from being a a sub-par cruiser to a really overpowered one, and now back to being average? I don't see a problem here.

That being said, I do believe ships like Zao and Hindy will need a slight buff once all the other T10 cruisers, notably DM, gets their 30mm casemate. All things being equal and all.

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On 6/30/2019 at 8:31 AM, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I called this out a while back just before 2 clan battle season ago and it was a night and day difference in how she could not tank damage like before, then came the reload nerf which everyone said was only 1 second, then Wargaming decided it was failing so they gave it another heal, still failing, then they talked about buffing the reload by another 1/2 second.  Why in the heck didn't they just leave it along and keep the reload at 10seconds in the first place, all of this work was for nothing.  But then we can't have the perennial favorite T10 cruiser (German to boot) beating up on everyone else, especially Moskva.   Concentrate on ships that actually need help and quit messing with the ones that don't.  No wonder you don't see that many Hindy's/Roon like you used to.  Thank you NERF bat.

 

Pete

You and I have been in this discussion for a while.   You've claimed repeatedly in other threads that the Hindenburg's tankiness has been nerfed, and this is not the case.

SireneRacker's analysis correctly describes the Hindenburg's problem, and it is power creep, not nerfing.  The Hindenburg's armor scheme is unchanged, and a reload of 10s will not address her main problem.  To quote SireneRacker:

What is Hindenburg's main issue? It's a feature of her that got powercrept. For those that have been around for some time, the term “Battleship Hindenburg” should not be uncommon. This reputation was gained for a few reasons. For one the turtleback armor which allowed her to pull some ridiculous moves in brawls, and then most importantly the 30mm midship section which allowed her to bounce all AP shells but the ones fired by Yamato, Musashi and 457mm Conqueror (which no one used, that didn't change). So basically, angle well and you can absorb a lot of damage.

 She still has those 30mm armor. But unfortunately for her there are plenty of ships that have been released since then, and more in the pipeline. Republique being chief among them. Why her? Because she amplifies the problems that Hindenburg has. Hindy's sluggish handling is nothing new, so any Republique with two baguettes to rub together (lewd) will not struggle to land shells, and when they land, they hurt. And there is no way for Hindenburg to counter this threat at all. Angling doesn't work, the concealment is mediocre, so are her dodging abilities. What remains is literally running away and trying to slowly wear the Republique down while 10k damage salvos will return to you every 20something seconds.

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10 hours ago, AnIolairGhorm said:

You and I have been in this discussion for a while.   You've claimed repeatedly in other threads that the Hindenburg's tankiness has been nerfed, and this is not the case.

SireneRacker's analysis correctly describes the Hindenburg's problem, and it is power creep, not nerfing.  The Hindenburg's armor scheme is unchanged, and a reload of 10s will not address her main problem.  To quote SireneRacker:

What is Hindenburg's main issue? It's a feature of her that got powercrept. For those that have been around for some time, the term “Battleship Hindenburg” should not be uncommon. This reputation was gained for a few reasons. For one the turtleback armor which allowed her to pull some ridiculous moves in brawls, and then most importantly the 30mm midship section which allowed her to bounce all AP shells but the ones fired by Yamato, Musashi and 457mm Conqueror (which no one used, that didn't change). So basically, angle well and you can absorb a lot of damage.

 She still has those 30mm armor. But unfortunately for her there are plenty of ships that have been released since then, and more in the pipeline. Republique being chief among them. Why her? Because she amplifies the problems that Hindenburg has. Hindy's sluggish handling is nothing new, so any Republique with two baguettes to rub together (lewd) will not struggle to land shells, and when they land, they hurt. And there is no way for Hindenburg to counter this threat at all. Angling doesn't work, the concealment is mediocre, so are her dodging abilities. What remains is literally running away and trying to slowly wear the Republique down while 10k damage salvos will return to you every 20something seconds.

Hey

Well then maybe Wargaming should have just left it is the state that it originally was since she was top of the proverbial T10 cruiser pile for a long; all the more reason to have NOT nerf'd the reload a full second, which isn't much but when they did something else changed at the same time.  Now it has an additional heal, another 1/2 second back to the reload AND now what if it doesn't perform?  Give it another 1/2 second reload buff?  which would put it back to where it originally was which begs the question that I posted initially, why?  Let's face it; the constant Nerfing, buffing, changes to concealment, AA, DFAA and manual AA, sector changes, the constant changes for "Balance" does nothing but make things more irritating because you never know what is affected in the next update, the one after and instead of Balance, the game becomes more unbalanced.  Power Creep; we see it with the Russian BB's and what's coming?  Hardly anything balanced, consistent, and predictable game play.  Maybe Wargaming should try leaving things alone for a while and let people adapt their play style instead of constant Balancing and ruining once good ships but then if you look there is a bias against German and Japanese ships in this game.

 

Pete

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9 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

Well then maybe Wargaming should have just left it is the state that it originally was since she was top of the proverbial T10 cruiser pile for a long; all the more reason to have NOT nerf'd the reload a full second, which isn't much but when they did something else changed at the same time.  Now it has an additional heal, another 1/2 second back to the reload AND now what if it doesn't perform?  Give it another 1/2 second reload buff?  which would put it back to where it originally was which begs the question that I posted initially, why?  Let's face it; the constant Nerfing, buffing, changes to concealment, AA, DFAA and manual AA, sector changes, the constant changes for "Balance" does nothing but make things more irritating because you never know what is affected in the next update, the one after and instead of Balance, the game becomes more unbalanced.  Power Creep; we see it with the Russian BB's and what's coming?  Hardly anything balanced, consistent, and predictable game play.  Maybe Wargaming should try leaving things alone for a while and let people adapt their play style instead of constant Balancing and ruining once good ships but then if you look there is a bias against German and Japanese ships in this game.

 

Pete

You keep coming back to the changes made to the Hindenburg, particularly reload times, but that has nothing to do with her main issue.  Even if WG made zero changes to the Hindenburg, the main issue she has today would still exist: she is being power crept largely because new battleships are able to overmatch her existing, not-nerfed armor.

WG routinely adjusts things as they add new content; that's their prerogative to do so.  If we don't like where the game is going, then we can stop playing the game.  SireneRacker's analysis is objective and non-emotional, which is much more useful than statements about Russian bias or "just leave things as they are".  I expect most of us want the game to change and develop--that's good for the game and keeps things interesting and fresh.  Yes, there will be consequences to choices WG makes, and they'll be more responsive to constructive input.

The Hindenburg is (emotionally) my favorite ship in the game.  I would love nothing more than to see her resiliency improved to make her more durable against the new battleships, so no one needs to convince me that changes are desirable.  I think SireneRacker's analysis is spot-on, constructive, and useful, which is very refreshing.

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Once you get to Tier 10 it's mainly the skill of the player not the ship imho. My first Tier 10 ship and I still love playing the Hindy. I'm an average player but my last random battle in her was like 150K damage with 4 sunk. I'm still learning my Des Moines but I haven't played her as much. T10 ships are fun for even the average player but I prefer to play them on premium time.

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On 8/1/2019 at 8:46 AM, AnIolairGhorm said:

You keep coming back to the changes made to the Hindenburg, particularly reload times, but that has nothing to do with her main issue.  Even if WG made zero changes to the Hindenburg, the main issue she has today would still exist: she is being power crept largely because new battleships are able to overmatch her existing, not-nerfed armor.

WG routinely adjusts things as they add new content; that's their prerogative to do so.  If we don't like where the game is going, then we can stop playing the game.  SireneRacker's analysis is objective and non-emotional, which is much more useful than statements about Russian bias or "just leave things as they are".  I expect most of us want the game to change and develop--that's good for the game and keeps things interesting and fresh.  Yes, there will be consequences to choices WG makes, and they'll be more responsive to constructive input.

The Hindenburg is (emotionally) my favorite ship in the game.  I would love nothing more than to see her resiliency improved to make her more durable against the new battleships, so no one needs to convince me that changes are desirable.  I think SireneRacker's analysis is spot-on, constructive, and useful, which is very refreshing.

Hey

There is the issue that Wargaming has never discussed and that it the RNG game mechanics as they apply to some ships over others, does it apply to people over others, why during a game does it seem the winning team suddenly starts losing when clearly they were the dominent team to begin with.  Does RNG manipulate the game to keep things "balanced"?  How is it then in the very beginning of a game does someone get spotted when they are clearly too far away from any enemy ships and/or aircraft to get spotted?  How is it that one can be within 10km or less and make a waterline shot on an easy target only to get little to no damage?  But we need SAP shells when in fact we never needed in times past?  Or the shear numbers of BB over pens, ricochet's to the rate of around 3 to 1 and it matters not on nation?  I recently had a game where I was in a Repub. and went against a Yamato with less than 800HP, and hit him for 11 AP shells for ZERO damage, not over pens, not ricochet's but ZERO damage, I died to his teammates and he lived, I call [edited] on that.  How many times does your supposedly good fire starting cruiser fail to start fires, even though your anywhere from 15-20% fire rate, with flags fail to perform?  Then there is AA with values that nobody fully understands and can see actually working (DFAA is a joke anymore).  Then with the carrier rework; everyone lost out on the concealment Nerf, AFT 20% AA range nerf, manual AA nerf, and now they are talking about a nerf to IFHE which will hurt many ships  and yet we are led to believe the game is balanced?  Really?  Tell me there isn't Wargaming manipulation going on and things we aren't told about game mechanics.  Now they want to bring subs. 

 

Pete

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On 9/25/2019 at 8:22 AM, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

There is the issue that Wargaming has never discussed and that it the RNG game mechanics as they apply to some ships over others, does it apply to people over others, why during a game does it seem the winning team suddenly starts losing when clearly they were the dominent team to begin with.  Does RNG manipulate the game to keep things "balanced"?  How is it then in the very beginning of a game does someone get spotted when they are clearly too far away from any enemy ships and/or aircraft to get spotted?  How is it that one can be within 10km or less and make a waterline shot on an easy target only to get little to no damage?  But we need SAP shells when in fact we never needed in times past?  Or the shear numbers of BB over pens, ricochet's to the rate of around 3 to 1 and it matters not on nation?  I recently had a game where I was in a Repub. and went against a Yamato with less than 800HP, and hit him for 11 AP shells for ZERO damage, not over pens, not ricochet's but ZERO damage, I died to his teammates and he lived, I call [edited] on that.  How many times does your supposedly good fire starting cruiser fail to start fires, even though your anywhere from 15-20% fire rate, with flags fail to perform?  Then there is AA with values that nobody fully understands and can see actually working (DFAA is a joke anymore).  Then with the carrier rework; everyone lost out on the concealment Nerf, AFT 20% AA range nerf, manual AA nerf, and now they are talking about a nerf to IFHE which will hurt many ships  and yet we are led to believe the game is balanced?  Really?  Tell me there isn't Wargaming manipulation going on and things we aren't told about game mechanics.  Now they want to bring subs. 

 

Pete

Hmmm, you've lost me.  The discussion is about the Hindenburg, so I'm wondering whether your reply here was intended for a different thread?

 

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1 hour ago, AnIolairGhorm said:

Hmmm, you've lost me.  The discussion is about the Hindenburg, so I'm wondering whether your reply here was intended for a different thread?

 

Hey

The point that I mentioned covers several topics but points to the fact that Hindenburg used to be a great ship, very popular at T10 and very deserving of it's reputation then something with game manipulation changed it just before one of the clan seasons, about the time Moskva got it's armor buff.  It was a night and day difference in how it played and how it performed.  Shortly thereafter; Wargaming nerf'd the reload 1 second, and the ship suffered, many people didn't play it as much, at least for clan battles since it was under performing.  Then wargaming decided the up the reload by 1/2 second, and it still is not as popular, not performing to what it used to.  then you add into the mix, the 10% loss of concealment (which affected all ships), the loss of 20% to it's AA (again affected all ships using AFT) and then it is still only using 6km torps where Zao got a torp buff, the ridiculous armor of Moskva/Stalingrad and you start to see a pattern which leads into the other stuff I mentioned.  If you can't see a certain bias against German ships, and Japanese for that matter, then you are blind.  The Hindy is still not what it used to be and has been clearly messed with and power creeped.

 

Pete

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