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Of all the DDs to nerf the DPM on, the grozovoi gets the .5s reload nerf? (Edit: Now .2s)

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Earlier today on the stream, "[EN] News & Balance changes with MrConway, Crysantos and Shonai!" (which is still live on twitch), one of the nerfs discussed was nerfing the grozovoi DPM. 

Becuase the grozovoi's HE/AP dpm of 160k/240k was the excessive one at 6km detection. Not the daring's best-in-class 244k HE or 300k AP dpm (which arms on destroyers) at 6km stealth, or the harugumo's super-pen 240k HE dpm or 340k ap dpm (which also arms on DDs) at 6.2 max detection. All three APs perform similarly for ballistics and penetration, and both also have better win rates the the grozovoi, which is the fourth best win rate among the eight tier ten DDs (i.e. perfectly average). 

For further reference, the gearing boasts 210k HE dpm while the khaba boasts 180k HE DPM. The grozovoi, is, in fact, tied with the yueyang for DPM, with the only ships lower on the DPM table being the Shima and Z-52 (the legendary mod does have the groz beat out the yueyang, though, by 6% over the normal main battery mod).  

 

What could possibly explain the rationale behind nerfing the groz rof? Especially when there's clearly actual over-performing DDs? 

Stats edit: The groz is actually at its best on the NA server by a good margin; it's even below the median on the RU server at 6th place (of 8) by win rate, and 7th for damage.

 

 

Edit: People seem to be missing the point here: I'm saying they should actually be nerfing the grossly-overperforming daring, not the slightly-above-average grozovoi. For reference, if you stuck a Daring next to a grozovoi, the daring would ap (as it will never overpen the hull) kill the gorzovoi with more than half of its health remaining, with a second grozovoi very easily being on the table at that point after popping a post-fight heal or two. That's the difference in raw DPM, even if a somewhat ideal scenario for a daring. 

 

Post devblog edit: The devblog has come out with a .2 second nerf instead of .5, which contradicts the stream and is presumably the more correct value

Edited by PG908
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I assume its about utility.  It's the best AA DD, and averages good damage and has good overall utility.  Groz average damage last week 52K, 4.72 plane kills, base capture point 35.57, survival rate 39.18%, 1655 average XP.  Now compared that to the Gearing's 39K damage, 2.3 plane kills, base captures 29.26, 27.22% survival, 1368 XP.

 
xp damage
caused
aircraft
destoryed
base
capture
survived
Grozovoi 1,655 53,380 4.72 35.57 39.18%
Gearing 1,368 39,231 2.30 29.26 27.22%

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190615/na_week/average_ship.html

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26 minutes ago, PG908 said:

Earlier today on the stream, "[EN] News & Balance changes with MrConway, Crysantos and Shonai!" (which is still live on twitch), one of the nerfs discussed was nerfing the grozovoi DPM. 

Becuase the grozovoi's HE/AP dpm of 160k/240k was the excessive one at 6km detection. Not the daring's best-in-class 244k HE or 300k AP dpm (which arms on destroyers) at 6km stealth, or the harugumo's super-pen 240k HE dpm or 340k ap dpm (which also arms on DDs) at 6.2 max detection. All three APs perform similarly for ballistics and penetration, and both also have better win rates the the grozovoi, which is the fourth best win rate among the eight tier ten DDs (i.e. perfectly average). 

For further reference, the gearing boasts 210k HE dpm while the khaba boasts 180k HE DPM. The grozovoi, is, in fact, tied with the yueyang for DPM, with the only ships lower on the DPM table being the Shima and Z-52 (the legendary mod does have the groz beat out the yueyang, though, by 6% over the normal main battery mod).  

 

What could possibly explain the rationale behind nerfing the groz rof? Especially when there's clearly actual over-performing DDs? 

 

 

1 minute ago, Slimeball91 said:

I assume its about utility.  It's the best AA DD, and averages good damage and has good overall utility.  Groz average damage last week 52K, 4.72 plane kills, base capture point 35.57, survival rate 39.18%, 1655 average XP.  Now compared that to the Gearing's 39K damage, 2.3 plane kills, base captures 29.26, 27.22% survival, 1368 XP.

 
xp damage
caused
aircraft
destoryed
base
capture
survived
Grozovoi 1,655 53,380 4.72 35.57 39.18%
Gearing 1,368 39,231 2.30 29.26 27.22%

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190615/na_week/average_ship.html

I would assume Slimeball is right that its about the utility.  Grozovoi can quad wield smoke, def AA, speed boost, and a heal.

 

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3 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I assume its about utility.  It's the best AA DD, and averages good damage and has good overall utility.  Groz average damage last week 52K, 4.72 plane kills, base capture point 35.57, survival rate 39.18%, 1655 average XP.  Now compared that to the Gearing's 39K damage, 2.3 plane kills, base captures 29.26, 27.22% survival, 1368 XP.

 
xp damage
caused
aircraft
destoryed
base
capture
survived
Grozovoi 1,655 53,380 4.72 35.57 39.18%
Gearing 1,368 39,231 2.30 29.26 27.22%

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190615/na_week/average_ship.html

Yes, but then shouldn't the AA (that lets it survive carriers and cap) be nerfed? And why not the Daring's 1.8k base experience, 60k average damage, 43 cap points, and 40% survival rate? 

Plane kills and survival rates have plummeted since 8.x for DDs, indicating heavy carrier involvement in said stats. I wouldn't exactly consider them reasonable justification for a dpm nerf. The poor survival rates and plane kills of a DD suggest that DDs have terrible AA except for a handful, not that the gorozovi's very average dpm needs a nerf. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Wows_Nightly_News said:

I would assume Slimeball is right that its about the utility.  Grozovoi can quad wield smoke, def AA, speed boost, and a heal.

 

Then why nerf the DPM, which clearly isn't the problem, especially when other DDs surpass its statistics?

 

Additionally, having a fourth consumable (a heal) has seemingly been balanced by giving them all a base charge of 1 (except DFAA). It's hard to deny that the combination of DFAA and a heal works well on a dd in 8.x, but that's a DD v CV balance issue, not a DPM issue, which is a very standard six guns on a 4s reload. 

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Probably because the Groz dosn't really have much in the way of weaknesses.

The Daring is the slowest DD at the tier, even compared to the base speeds of all the other destroyers, let alone when the others use speed boost. Her DPM, on the other hand, is very difficult to make use of, considering the horrible ballistics and lacking pen, not to mention the deep skill requirements to make her perform.

The Haru has similarly bad ballistics, horrible maneuverability despite decent speed, bad stealth, absurdly long torpedo reload, and can still eat BB AP pens.

The Groz, on the other hand, is fast with decent maneuverability, an absurdly versatile consumable loadout, and excellent ballistics.

I expect thier trying to move the Groz into more of a support role with all this, instead of the super Jack of all trades she is now. Currently, she can use her speed and ballistics to keep enemy DDs at a range where the struggle to hit her, while she can hammer them pretty easily.

I love playing my Groz, but this is probably overdue.

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You can have 10 million theoretical DPM, yet be incapable of utilising it to it's fullest due to shell arcs and speeds. Grozovoi is blessed to be able to nail shots with ease at 12km+ on most targets thanks to the crazy velocities. Then you add speed, concealment, heal and AA and you get your reason why.

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11 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

Probably because the Groz dosn't really have much in the way of weaknesses.

The Daring is the slowest DD at the tier, even compared to the base speeds of all the other destroyers, let alone when the others use speed boost. Her DPM, on the other hand, is very difficult to make use of, considering the horrible ballistics and lacking pen, not to mention the deep skill requirements to make her perform.

The Haru has similarly bad ballistics, horrible maneuverability despite decent speed, bad stealth, absurdly long torpedo reload, and can still eat BB AP pens.

The Groz, on the other hand, is fast with decent maneuverability, an absurdly versatile consumable loadout, and excellent ballistics.

I expect thier trying to move the Groz into more of a support role with all this, instead of the super Jack of all trades she is now. Currently, she can use her speed and ballistics to keep enemy DDs at a range where the struggle to hit her, while she can hammer them pretty easily.

I love playing my Groz, but this is probably overdue.

The problem I have is that the only metric the groz really stands out in is plane kills. Every other stat on wowsnumbers she's firmly in the middle of the pack, indicating that "jack of all trades, master of none" is reasonably balanced. If they were nerfing all the power creep DDs (so anything newer than the z-52), that's reasonable. But here it seems like WG is sending grozovoi to the principle's office for a dress code violation while other DDs are committing felonies in the hall.

fe7b764aef50b96d78d52dfa6737fc56.png

 

Edit: the grozovoi's good ballistics and consumables are intended to make up for the otherwise lacking DPM, worthless torpedoes, relatively large size, and poor stealth.

Edited by PG908
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This is what happens when people impacting the game don't actually play the game.

 

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47 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I assume its about utility.  It's the best AA DD, and averages good damage and has good overall utility.  Groz average damage last week 52K, 4.72 plane kills, base capture point 35.57, survival rate 39.18%, 1655 average XP.  Now compared that to the Gearing's 39K damage, 2.3 plane kills, base captures 29.26, 27.22% survival, 1368 XP.

 
xp damage
caused
aircraft
destoryed
base
capture
survived
Grozovoi 1,655 53,380 4.72 35.57 39.18%
Gearing 1,368 39,231 2.30 29.26 27.22%

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190615/na_week/average_ship.html

Image result for people don't think it be like it is but it do

Also made me curious about the Tier X DD Win Rates.

Grozovoi 53.48%

Khabarovsk 49.51%

Shimakaze 49.53%

Harugumo 50.23%

Z-52 50.41%

Yueyang 43.82% :Smile_unsure:... I remember when YY was a monster in the Destroyer game.

Gearing 48.8%

Daring 56.24%

 

It's also amusing to see that despite all her nerfs, Khabarovsk still easily leads in Damage Average, even over Harugumo.

Khabarovsk 65657 :Smile_trollface:

Harugumo 58093

Grozovoi 53380

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, PG908 said:

All three APs perform similarly for ballistics and penetration

What are you smoking? Grozovoi have by far the best penetration and shell velocity of all DDs in the game, surpassing even Khaba

image.thumb.png.63cd19e4078b0927a3a2b114bfd41e69.png

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I think you need to spend some time playing daring to know her strengths and weaknesses.  Players that know how to use her will make her shine, those that don't will flat out fail.  Its very easy to out play a daring in groz, likewise its pretty ez to kill a groz if you know how as well.

Edited by mixmkz

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1 hour ago, PG908 said:

 

Except the issue is that the Groz's DPM applies across all ranges. The Daring and Gearing have issues applying that DPM past ranges of 7.5-8.5km . 

In my Groz I have no issues hitting DD's between 8-10km. A gearing can only dream of such applicable DPM across all ranges. 

It also does not have poor stealth for a DD of that capability. 

 

+ the utility makes her a formidable opponent. 

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26 minutes ago, PG908 said:

Yes, but then shouldn't the AA (that lets it survive carriers and cap) be nerfed? And why not the Daring's 1.8k base experience, 60k average damage, 43 cap points, and 40% survival rate?

I can see logic in leaving the AA alone and nerfing DPM.  For one, no AA ships need to be nerfed with CVs where they currently are.  Second, I'd guess the Groz is trolling other DDs and WG wants to reel that in some. 

As for Daring being untouched, I've got nothing.  All I'll say is I have no doubt WG has a nerf bat with the Daring's name on it, it's just a matter of time before its pulled out... 

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4 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

What are you smoking? Grozovoi have by far the best penetration and shell velocity of all DDs in the game, surpassing even Khaba

image.thumb.png.63cd19e4078b0927a3a2b114bfd41e69.png

Grozovoi Laser Cutting Beams :Smile_teethhappy:

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2 minutes ago, mixmkz said:

I think you need to spend some time playing daring to know her strengths and weaknesses.  Players that know how to use her will make her shine, those that don't will flat out fail.

He also fails to mention that the Daring has a much less GP vs the Groz. This by default makes her have a higher W/R. 

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1 minute ago, DolphinPrincess said:

What are you smoking? Grozovoi have by far the best penetration and shell velocity of all DDs in the game, surpassing even Khaba

image.thumb.png.63cd19e4078b0927a3a2b114bfd41e69.png

All three are plenty good enough for destroyer purposes, where DD fights will be happening at 5-7km and cruisers are more than hittable with the 10s travel times of the harugumo and daring at 12km+ (compared the the 8s of the groz). The pen, however, holds up much better on the grozovoi. But if it were really a ballistics issue, the khab would be getting nerfed too (and it probably deserves said nerf).

 

It's a stretch to call the grozovoi significantly better than the khaba, imo. It has slightly better pen up to 11km, while it inexplicable has slightly longer travel times and slightly worse arcs despite the slightly higher shell velocity.

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3 minutes ago, PG908 said:

All three are plenty good enough for destroyer purposes, where DD fights will be happening at 5-7km and cruisers are more than hittable with the 10s travel times of the harugumo and daring at 12km+ (compared the the 8s of the groz). The pen, however, holds up much better on the grozovoi. But if it were really a ballistics issue, the khab would be getting nerfed too (and it probably deserves said nerf).

 

It's a stretch to call the grozovoi significantly better than the khaba, imo. It has slightly better pen up to 11km, while it inexplicable has slightly longer travel times and slightly worse arcs despite the slightly higher shell velocity.

Its not just about hitting Destroyers, its about the penetration against Cruisers

Try doing this in a Harugumo or Daring:

 

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1 minute ago, DolphinPrincess said:

Its not just about hitting Destroyers, its about the penetration against Cruisers

Try doing this in a Harugumo or Daring:

 

Then shouldn't the pen be nerfed, not the damage? A rate of fire nerf won't change that a groz can do that. And even then, if it's a situational OP-ness, shouldn't the grozovoi, which doesn't otherwise overperform, get a small buff somewhere else to keep it in the middle of the pack? 

 

Interestingly, the second highest DD pen at 4km is the gearing/yang, with 130mm (although the args and slight angle of the 100mm belt might lead to bounces anyway), while the haru has about 110ish and the daring has 95ish.

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Grozovoi was graced with it's repair party (fortunately not radar as originally considered...) Largely because it wasn't popular and not because it needed it. The CV rework has lent itself very well to the Grozovoi's outfit further increasing it's power.

I've not dug deep into stats but my knee-jerk is that this is pretty justified.

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4 minutes ago, PG908 said:

Then shouldn't the pen be nerfed, not the damage? A rate of fire nerf won't change that a groz can do that. And even then, if it's a situational OP-ness, shouldn't the grozovoi, which doesn't otherwise overperform, get a small buff somewhere else to keep it in the middle of the pack? 

 

Interestingly, the second highest DD pen at 4km is the gearing/yang, with 130mm (although the args and slight angle of the 100mm belt might lead to bounces anyway), while the haru has about 110ish and the daring has 95ish.

If Yamato was overpowered, would you nerf its overmatch or would you nerf some other aspect?

The entire Russian DD line have lower DPM than USN DDs, but as a trade off they have higher shell velocity and penetration. 

So why would you nerf that pen and turn them into USN clones?

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Just now, mofton said:

Grozovoi was graced with it's repair party (fortunately not radar as originally considered...) Largely because it wasn't popular and not because it needed it. The CV rework has lent itself very well to the Grozovoi's outfit further increasing it's power.

I've not dug deep into stats but my knee-jerk is that this is pretty justified.

But I clearly outlined that the grozovoi's RoF is fine... The russian pen is questionable (but the whole nation has that), but the dpm is absolutely fine where it is and instead suggested that the nerf might be better applied to the daring (which also, for the record, has a heal), since its dpm is off the charts. And, unlike the grozovoi, it tops the leaderboard, indicating that it's maybe a little OP.

The heal also wasn't given to the groz to make people play it; the whole gimmick is that you have few charges of many conumables (and also the groz is kinda fat for a DD). 

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25 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

As for Daring being untouched, I've got nothing.  All I'll say is I have no doubt WG has a nerf bat with the Daring's name on it, it's just a matter of time before its pulled out... 

Sub_Octavian actually commented on this a while back.

image.thumb.png.9300e84a1d59b4edfb2955f7a9c7285e.png

image.thumb.png.92e48f46488e2a7d498d80f1817a7d02.png

TL,DR: basically, the Daring has higher skill players in it on average, so the ship gets better numbers. (Probably because of the deep skill points needed shooing away the less talented players after they fail to make it preform.) I wouldn't be surprised if it does get tweaked in the future, but this is apparently why it hasn't been touched yet.

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11 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

If Yamato was overpowered, would you nerf its overmatch or would you nerf some other aspect?

The entire Russian DD line have lower DPM than USN DDs, but as a trade off they have higher shell velocity and penetration. 

So why would you nerf that pen and turn them into USN clones?

I'm not suggesting any such thing (although quite frankly, you could shave off 20mm and still be quite healthy, and have it much harder to citadel cruisers). In this case, I'm saying that if the grozovoi citadeling cruisers is the problem, a rate of fire adjustment isn't going to do anything. Aside from doing 12% less damage per minute of citadeling things, anyway.

 

If the yamato's gunnery overperformed, then one could nerf the accuracy or damage. In this case, though, the price for being able to bow-pen BBs with AP seems to be being cheek citadeled.

 

 

Edit:

5 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

Sub_Octavian actually commented on this a while back.

image.thumb.png.9300e84a1d59b4edfb2955f7a9c7285e.png

image.thumb.png.92e48f46488e2a7d498d80f1817a7d02.png

TL,DR: basically, the Daring has higher skill players in it on average, so the ship gets better numbers. (Probably because of the deep skill points needed shooing away the less talented players after they fail to make it preform.) I wouldn't be surprised if it does get tweaked in the future, but this is apparently why it hasn't been touched yet.

That's good to hear, but quite frankly I still don't like that they're nerfing the only DD that's really able to handle CVs at this point, and I can't help but suspect that the numbers are influenced by this (winning more than other DDS becuase it doesn't die to rockets as easily - stats might not shift a lot because both teams DDs deaths cancel eachother out, except the groz). A similar situation is no doubt why the henri isn't nerfed yet (while that stalin is perhaps hard to draw data for and also has premium nerf immunity on top of "shoot the stalin syndrome")

Edited by PG908
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