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Herr_Reitz

Farming for damage - randoms

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At what point in a match (game) do you flip the switch and say, "It's a loss, might as well get what I can."? 

Just had a match where our Shima drove by TWO empty caps they could have capped early, right at the start. I overflew both areas in my planes; reds were at opposite end of the match. But no... they were out for personal damage it seems. We lost. He was the last to go. 

Which got me thinking about the first line up there... do you go into random matches for yourself or for a win? tiafyc

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For both questions its depends in what ship i using...

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sounds like someone had their priorities all messed up... Isay

  1. Play the game mode for the win always
  2. Then DMG farm in the process

Some players just havent gotten the notion of having more then one option to win

Edited by Navalpride33
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I flip the switch when there is no strategy evolving and we are out of the time needed to recover.

I always try for the win by staying team aware. I look at the map and set myself up to do my logical job based on the map and the fleet/team on hand. As things evolve if I see a good strategy forming up I stick with the team/flank and battle it out. If on the other hand the fleet starts to sputter and break down and my flank is doomed I hide or run and give and take damage as I go. I don't div-up with anyone, but if I see a group that seems to be communicating, I will follow them and support in the role built for my ship.  If all is lost, and I am the last one on the map I usually just head on into the pack blasting. Can't see hiding in another time zone is much fun.

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31 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

do you go into random matches for yourself or for a win?

For the win, of course. However, I've been playing around with the idea of farming Russian battleships to burn their finite number of DCP charges and leave them vulnerable for the endgame. 

If you can fire-farm a BB (or other ship with a heal) when its DCP and heals are on cooldown, you can permanently weaken them, or at the very least leave them on lower health for a significant period of time - which might give one of your colleagues the chance to deliver a killing blow that would otherwise have been just a grievous wound. And farming ships that can't heal for everything you can get DOES leave them permanently weakened.

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27 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

At what point in a match (game) do you flip the switch and say, "It's a loss, might as well get what I can."? 

Just had a match where our Shima drove by TWO empty caps they could have capped early, right at the start. I overflew both areas in my planes; reds were at opposite end of the match. But no... they were out for personal damage it seems. We lost. He was the last to go. 

Which got me thinking about the first line up there... do you go into random matches for yourself or for a win? tiafyc

Hey Herr_Reitz,

For me every match I begin with the thought "winning is all that matters" and this is how I play the game. I care about winning more than personal accolades and honestly if you are doing "your job" the damage and achievements will come. Granted there are some games that maybe losses from the early going, a DD dies early or a flank falls and this might change the way you play. If you go in with the mindset of trying to win every game and doing what you can to make this happen you will win more games and get better individual results. Yes, some matches end quickly and there is nothing you can do about that. 

I always tell players that you will get damage/achievements if you are helping your team win. If a game is so far out of reach that you don't see a possible way of getting back into it, then it might change the circumstances for that one match. In a team game you have to play for the team and that you will get good results from it. 

  • Play to win the game, simple as that.
  • Damage and achievements will come as you play to win. Yes, it is hard to pass up that broadside cruiser sometimes but killing that DD will help win the game. This is one of those decisions you will run into a lot during the course of a match.
  • The ship you are using is also a valid reason to do things differently. I wouldn't play the Des Moines the same way I play the Henri but they both serve their purposes.
  • Communicate to your teammates with last known spots or other relevant information but don't spam the map =).

Hopefully this answers a little bit of what you are asking and gives insight into how I play the game. 

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2 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

For the win, of course.

this

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For the win. I'll gladly trade my ship for the win instead of farming.

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11 minutes ago, Kami said:

Hey Herr_Reitz,

For me every match I begin with the thought "winning is all that matters" and this is how I play the game. I care about winning more than personal accolades and honestly if you are doing "your job" the damage and achievements will come. Granted there are some games that maybe losses from the early going, a DD dies early or a flank falls and this might change the way you play. If you go in with the mindset of trying to win every game and doing what you can to make this happen you will win more games and get better individual results. Yes, some matches end quickly and there is nothing you can do about that. 

I always tell players that you will get damage/achievements if you are helping your team win. If a game is so far out of reach that you don't see a possible way of getting back into it, then it might change the circumstances for that one match. In a team game you have to play for the team and that you will get good results from it. 

  • Play to win the game, simple as that.
  • Damage and achievements will come as you play to win. Yes, it is hard to pass up that broadside cruiser sometimes but killing that DD will help win the game. This is one of those decisions you will run into a lot during the course of a match.
  • The ship you are using is also a valid reason to do things differently. I wouldn't play the Des Moines the same way I play the Henri but they both serve their purposes.
  • Communicate to your teammates with last known spots or other relevant information but don't spam the map =).

Hopefully this answers a little bit of what you are asking and gives insight into how I play the game. 

Kami, the problem is that there are a group of players who don't give a flip about winning and are only in it to shoot up stuff and get an occasional kill.  They'll tell you up front that they don't give a damn about winning.  On this, I agree with Jingles when he called this sort of player selfish because in their desire to just shoot up stuff, they are selfishly condemning the rest of the team to their utter lack of desire to play to win.  

Regardless, what I've learned to do is try to leverage players that seem to be like this, but using the F3 key to get them to focus their "desire to shoot up stuff" on specific targets.  And for the most part, they're relatively willing to do so.  I don't tell them why I'm using the F3 key (i.e. trying to focus their fire for the sake of the team's efforts).  I just let them think what they want, since I usually F3 weakened enemy ships where these players have the chance at relatively easy kills.  I want those ships dead for the good of the team's efforts towards winning, and I try to play off these players' desires to sink ships for their own personal glory.  And I guess that if the enemy ship gets sunk quickly, we both get what we want.

 

Moving on, I came over from WoT back during open beta, and one lesson I learned over there that's still true in WoWS is that if you want to increase your WR in the long run and increase your chances of winning the game at hand, the most important thing you can do is stay alive and productive, because the instant you die, your chances of winning are now completely in the hands of the surviving players on the team.  And if you're an above 50% WR player, what that translates into is this.  Over the long run, you can assume that all survivors are server average players, i.e. about 50% or a little below.  And if you're better than the server average, not being on the team reduces your chances of winning.  So it's always better to stay alive and productive and try to keep your fate in your own hands.

 

With regard to shooting DDs, it all depends on what ship I'm in, the accuracy of its guns, and so on and so on.  If the DD is 15 km away and I'm in a Minotaur, I'm probably not going to bother, because my shells are so slow and loopy that landing hits on DDs at that range is nigh on impossible.  OTOH, if I'm in something like a Moskva or a Hindenburg, I might give it a go since those ships have accurate, high velocity guns with flatter trajectories.  And honestly, if really frustrates me when battle callers tell me to make what are in my estimation ultra low probability shots at some DD when I know damn well that my chances of scoring a hit are slim and none (and Slim just left town).  I loathe taking ultra low chance shots when I have much better shots begging to be taken.

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I keep shooting until I sink. I guess some would see that as farming damage.

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1 hour ago, Herr_Reitz said:

At what point in a match (game) do you flip the switch and say, "It's a loss, might as well get what I can."? 

Just had a match where our Shima drove by TWO empty caps they could have capped early, right at the start. I overflew both areas in my planes; reds were at opposite end of the match. But no... they were out for personal damage it seems. We lost. He was the last to go. 

Which got me thinking about the first line up there... do you go into random matches for yourself or for a win? tiafyc

Wait... there are objectives other than killing things?  Hmmm.... The other boats on my team are humans?

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1 hour ago, ColdwaterCowboy_1 said:

I flip the switch when there is no strategy evolving and we are out of the time needed to recover.

That is essentially the start of every match.  So I guess I'm doing it right!

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1 hour ago, turdjelly said:

Wait... there are objectives other than killing things?  Hmmm.... The other boats on my team are humans?

Believe it or not, in a battle last night, we had a BB player who refused to ram an enemy BB, despite having enough health to do so and having much less health than the enemy BB, in a situation where it would have been VERY advantageous to ram.  And you know what his reason for not doing so was?  He claimed that he didn't want to promote suicide.  :Smile_facepalm:

I had another player in a thread less than a week ago claim that he didn't like playing PvP battles because he didn't like "shooting people".   :Smile_facepalm:

 

:Smile_facepalm::Smile_facepalm::Smile_facepalm:

 

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I got into a discussion the last couple days and made the remark to me the team winning is more important than me winning. I made a extreme case saying if it meant jumping on a torpedo in a DD so the team could win I would do it. I said I was not a save a star type of guy / damage farmer. I had a person tell me that I presume had much better stats than me that even though people don't like damage farmers they do more for the team than what someone who was trying to put the team first. That damage farming essentially put the team first over trying to get a cap, or putting yourself last. It was a long discussion but that was the jist of our discussion on the subject. The only way I could see that as being true would be if you knew you was taking HP away setting up for a kill.  To help the team, not trying to pad my numbers.

 

Just my opinion

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Well thanks EVERYONE! ! ! Some great feedback. I myself go in for the win, strive to play strategically but muff up some times. A number of excellent thoughts and suggestions here. I'm hopeful others may add what they feel is needed if we all missed anything. 

When you train in the military you usually encounter something that goes like this... "The enemy you need to conquer lies deep between your ears." You don't want to just hand yourself over to the reds for nothing. Then again, you don't want to cower behind others or islands doing nothing. Yet again, you don't want to banzai from the git-go either. 

The better able you are to use your weapon, the better you are... so I'm hopeful others will at least read what you all have posted here, consider it and perhaps utilize it to do a better job in their upcoming matches. 

thanks much, I will also work on further improvements along those lines. 

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Lots of people give up easily.  They either then get rekt because they stopped caring, or they try to play like a Ranked player trying to Save Their Star.

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11 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

At what point in a match (game) do you flip the switch and say, "It's a loss, might as well get what I can."? 

Just had a match where our Shima drove by TWO empty caps they could have capped early, right at the start. I overflew both areas in my planes; reds were at opposite end of the match. But no... they were out for personal damage it seems. We lost. He was the last to go. 

Which got me thinking about the first line up there... do you go into random matches for yourself or for a win? tiafyc

I always try to play for the win and go after objectives, however I'm beginning to think I need to change my strategy. It seems that too many players either don't know what they're doing or only care about damage and staying alive. We just lost a match where 2/3 of the team abandoned the 2 caps we had and sailed away into open waters running from the enemy. At the end we had 4 Cruisers, a BB and a CV at the back of the map. I and a lone DD tried to hold our last cap and naturally lost.

When I lose it often seems to be due to scenarios like this and after a fair bit of games it has a negative impact on your stats. The only way to fix the real issue is for WG to change the way they give points and calculate stats. You shouldn't be rewarded for running away, abandoning your team and objectives and being the last to die. These players are obviously prioritizing themselves over their objectives, team and the outcome of the battle. The only way to fix that is to reward good teamplay and to give negative stats for bad since it will have to impact the same self absorbed players for them to care about playing as a team. (ie: if players continue to be rewarded for bad behavior they will continue)

Until the day WG makes those changes (which I doubt they will), I guess the real question is becoming, should you just roll with the potatoes? 

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29 minutes ago, Code_Slinger said:

I always try to play for the win and go after objectives, however I'm beginning to think I need to change my strategy. It seems that too many players either don't know what they're doing or only care about damage and staying alive. We just lost a match where 2/3 of the team abandoned the 2 caps we had and sailed away into open waters running from the enemy. At the end we had 4 Cruisers, a BB and a CV at the back of the map. I and a lone DD tried to hold our last cap and naturally lost.

When I lose it often seems to be due to scenarios like this and after a fair bit of games it has a negative impact on your stats. The only way to fix the real issue is for WG to change the way they give points and calculate stats. You shouldn't be rewarded for running away, abandoning your team and objectives and being the last to die. These players are obviously prioritizing themselves over their objectives, team and the outcome of the battle. The only way to fix that is to reward good teamplay and to give negative stats for bad since it will have to impact the same self absorbed players for them to care about playing as a team. (ie: if players continue to be rewarded for bad behavior they will continue)

Until the day WG makes those changes (which I doubt they will), I guess the real question is becoming, should you just roll with the potatoes? 

Interesting thoughts... maybe we need them to implement The Magic 8 Ball... which works like you'd expect...

A zone of distance between the teams (could be any shape but lets say rectangular) starts between the two closest opposing ships at the start. Say it's six blocks. If you are seven blocks out, after X amount of time your ship would start losing health. As the match progresses, the Magic 8 Ball continues to reduce it's range, maybe ending up at the maximum minimum range of detection for the ships, so concealment's still a thing but they are drawn closer. 

Otherwise, how would you see them making such a change? 

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2 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Interesting thoughts... maybe we need them to implement The Magic 8 Ball... which works like you'd expect...

A zone of distance between the teams (could be any shape but lets say rectangular) starts between the two closest opposing ships at the start. Say it's six blocks. If you are seven blocks out, after X amount of time your ship would start losing health. As the match progresses, the Magic 8 Ball continues to reduce it's range, maybe ending up at the maximum minimum range of detection for the ships, so concealment's still a thing but they are drawn closer. 

Otherwise, how would you see them making such a change? 

Good point. I think ships could be monitored through scripts for staying outside of a specified area like you said, or retreating outside of the specified area and failing to shoot (and hit) the other team on a regular basis, failing to attack with some regularity depending on ship type, etc. It's something that would require careful thought to create a system that rewarded team play and punished running or hiding. I think supporting, defending and attacking caps and the enemy around them should reward better too. Maybe visibility of and proximity to the cap could be used as a factor in calculating score and stats.

So I don't have all the answers but I do know the system as it stands todays rewards bad sportsmanship. Much like Ranked where players will abandon their team and the objectives and focus on "saving their star", rewarding players for running away, staying alive and refusing to actively engage has a negative impact on the game and discourages teamwork.

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By the time I know we have lost I'm usually looking for help from the guys that sailed away from the fight and am lucky if I can take one red down with me.

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I can usually tell in the first 2 minutes if my team is gonna win or lose, so trying doesn't mean much.

I usually focus on whatever event mission I'm trying to accomplish.

That's what most players do. They scream that they want more content, then they scream when players focus on the content instead of the win.

As far as carries go, I gave that up a long time ago. Find a new Daddy.
(Exception: I will try to carry in Ranked, because I currently like that mode. Also, events like Torpedo Beat, etc.)

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19 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

At what point in a match (game) do you flip the switch and say, "It's a loss, might as well get what I can."? 

Just had a match where our Shima drove by TWO empty caps they could have capped early, right at the start. I overflew both areas in my planes; reds were at opposite end of the match. But no... they were out for personal damage it seems. We lost. He was the last to go. 

Which got me thinking about the first line up there... do you go into random matches for yourself or for a win? tiafyc

Sounds like many IJN DDs players I have seen. I cannot count how many Kageros or Shimas I have seen do this. A few nights ago I had a Shima driver berate me for staying behind islands in my cruiser while he spent most of the game sitting at the back next to an empty cap relying on two squishy cruisers to spot for him. This was a match with no CVs.

If I know a game is lost I will prioritize damage. If our only DD is hiding behind me I will retreat and kite.

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Most players think they cannot impact the match at all. Most of them aren't good enough to do so (or worse, don't believe it even is possible) and so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You want to be good enough to actually impact matches. Most if not all games you play will have multiple players on your team that are completely useless other than as meatshields. With a scattering of players at other skill levels. Such is the way of WoWs.

always play for a win. Coincidentally it turns out one of the easiest ways to win games is to do a lot of meaningful damage. The one game I played yesterday was a "sure loss" initially but the enemy team folded at the end because two of us played for the win.

Keep in mind that if your team is outnumbered at the end, one of two situations is possible:

  1. Enemy team is mostly composed of players who are bad (often sitting in back not contributing during the important parts of the game)
  2. Enemy team is mostly composed of players who are good

#1 is easily winnable if you are good. #2 probably isn't winnable. For the situation in #1, oftentimes a numerically superior opponent will basically yolo into a team once the game is "won." This is pretty common in WoWS and is amplified by mostly bad players.

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