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IX Tier US BBs: Georgia vs Missouri

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Now that everybody but me has been able to ride shotgun in the USS Georgia, I was wondering what you captains thoughts are on a theoretical fight between the battleships USS Missouri and USS Georgia?

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Depends on player skill. Personally I would take the extra Missouri barrels. If there is islands involved, the radar would also pay off. Missouri could just keep Georgia at range and wear him down while Geprgia fought it's own dispersion, where as all Georgia could do is close gaps with its 40km speed boost. 

 

Of course this is in game... I'm not enough of a historian to have theories about unreconstructed ships:Smile-_tongue:

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Georgia. The accuracy is more than sufficient, and Georgia just needs to go into the general mid range area under concealment (even accounting for hers being worse) and then use the speed boost to keep MO there once they find each other. She would have massive control over the engagement.

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16 minutes ago, Alevon said:

Now that everybody but me has been able to ride shotgun in the USS Georgia, I was wondering what you captains thoughts are on a theoretical fight between the battleships USS Missouri and USS Georgia?

Missouri out ranges  up to 27km Georgia  20 km and has better armor

10 minutes ago, _1204_ said:

Depends on player skill. Personally I would take the extra Missouri barrels. If there is islands involved, the radar would also pay off. Missouri could just keep Georgia at range and wear him down while Geprgia fought it's own dispersion, where as all Georgia could do is close gaps with its 40km speed boost. 

 

Of course this is in game... I'm not enough of a historian to have theories about unreconstructed ships:Smile-_tongue:


7 minutes ago, Octavian_of_Roma said:

I think the Georgia would win.

Cause speed and secondaries, in a hypothetical 1vs1 engagement.

Only if the  Missouri  let the Georgia  get within rangeMissouri_Range.thumb.png.db579f09c1d23535293952cb7a88b87e.pngMissouri_Range.thumb.png.db579f09c1d23535293952cb7a88b87e.png

Georgia_Range.png

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25 minutes ago, _1204_ said:

Depends on player skill. Personally I would take the extra Missouri barrels. If there is islands involved, the radar would also pay off. Missouri could just keep Georgia at range and wear him down while Geprgia fought it's own dispersion, where as all Georgia could do is close gaps with its 40km speed boost. 

 

Of course this is in game... I'm not enough of a historian to have theories about unreconstructed ships:Smile-_tongue:

Its all hypothetical, Cmdr. I appreciate your opinion.

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1 minute ago, shadowsrmine said:

 


Only if the  Missouri  let the Georgia  get within range

 

I think it would have to in a hypothetical 1on1. The MO would have the initial spotting advantage, but by 1 or 1.something km. But unless that MO captain is really experienced and can "sense" when hes closing on that initial spotting range, they ll both be going relatively straight at each other.

I think the only way the MO has the advantage is if he goes forward initially but turns away before being spotted. He has to be moving slowly away from the Georgia, and when the Georgia is spotted he goes full gas and tries to kite. 

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I like the MO. It would be close. But I think the GA has the edge. The MO has 9 16 inchers, the GA has 6 18 inchers with no overmatch but a faster reload. The # guns vs the accuracy balances out. Armor is basically the same. The MO usually has the speed to dictate engagements, but the GA not only equals that but surpasses it. Finally the secondaries on the GA give it the edge in fire starting. The MO's big plus, radar, isn't useful in this scenario.

I think it would be almost equal, but one on one over time the GA would win out. I think though it would more come down to who made the first mistake. Both ships are equally capable of capitalizing on a mistake, and my guess is that one move would decide it.

However, in general play, and especially in competitive, I would take the MO every time. The radar and guns are just more reliable IMO.

 

But there's one way to find out. I've got a MO. IF anyone with a GA wants to jump in a training room to test in the next hour or so, I'm game.

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9 minutes ago, shadowsrmine said:

Missouri out ranges  up to 27km Georgia  20 km and has better armor


Only if the  Missouri  let the Georgia  get within rangeMissouri_Range.thumb.png.db579f09c1d23535293952cb7a88b87e.pngMissouri_Range.thumb.png.db579f09c1d23535293952cb7a88b87e.png

Georgia_Range.png

:Smile_great:Friedrich der Grobe,Grober Kurfurst   share something of the same problems except  they don't share Georgias accuracy and have better armor GK  is also a better target since she's supposed to the biggest ship  in game extent

Friedrich_der_Grobe_Range.png

Grober_Kurfurst_Range.png

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16 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

I like the MO. It would be close. But I think the GA has the edge. The MO has 9 16 inchers, the GA has 6 18 inchers with no overmatch but a faster reload. The # guns vs the accuracy balances out. Armor is basically the same. The MO usually has the speed to dictate engagements, but the GA not only equals that but surpasses it. Finally the secondaries on the GA give it the edge in fire starting. The MO's big plus, radar, isn't useful in this scenario.

I think it would be almost equal, but one on one over time the GA would win out. I think though it would more come down to who made the first mistake. Both ships are equally capable of capitalizing on a mistake, and my guess is that one move would decide it.

However, in general play, and especially in competitive, I would take the MO every time. The radar and guns are just more reliable IMO.

 

But there's one way to find out. I've got a MO. IF anyone with a GA wants to jump in a training room to test in the next hour or so, I'm game.

I’d take you up on that but I’d just be pining for the Mighty Mo the whole time. Wish I had been able to get it when it was available. I wasn’t as active then and wasn’t really aware of it yet. 

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Ultimately I think that it would come down to player skill. Both ships have their advantages. 

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56 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

I like the MO. It would be close. But I think the GA has the edge. The MO has 9 16 inchers, the GA has 6 18 inchers with no overmatch but a faster reload. The # guns vs the accuracy balances out. Armor is basically the same. The MO usually has the speed to dictate engagements, but the GA not only equals that but surpasses it. Finally the secondaries on the GA give it the edge in fire starting. The MO's big plus, radar, isn't useful in this scenario.

I think it would be almost equal, but one on one over time the GA would win out. I think though it would more come down to who made the first mistake. Both ships are equally capable of capitalizing on a mistake, and my guess is that one move would decide it.

However, in general play, and especially in competitive, I would take the MO every time. The radar and guns are just more reliable IMO.

 

But there's one way to find out. I've got a MO. IF anyone with a GA wants to jump in a training room to test in the next hour or so, I'm game.

Them's sounds like fighting words to me, but I ain't in it.... especially since I don't have either ship.

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2 hours ago, Alevon said:

Now that everybody but me has been able to ride shotgun in the USS Georgia, I was wondering what you captains thoughts are on a theoretical fight between the battleships USS Missouri and USS Georgia?

Georgia, hands down. 457s can lolpen through the bow, and she can keep Missouri inside her secondary range with ease because of speed boost.

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2 hours ago, _1204_ said:

 Missouri could just keep Georgia at range...where as all Georgia could do is close gaps with its 40km speed boost. 

Forget the new”confused” vote emoji, we new a “contradiction” vote.

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23 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Georgia, hands down. 457s can lolpen through the bow, and she can keep Missouri inside her secondary range with ease because of speed boost.

457mm cannot lolpen 32mm bows, the threshold is 460mm only reserved for the Musashi and Yamato.

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5 hours ago, vak_ said:

Georgia, hands down. 457s can lolpen through the bow, and she can keep Missouri inside her secondary range with ease because of speed boost.

Actually no it can't. Missouri has a 32MM bow and 457MM can not overmatch that; only Yamato and Musashi with the 460's can do that.

8 hours ago, shadowsrmine said:

Missouri out ranges  up to 27km Georgia  20 km and has better armor

Missouri and Georgia have almost identical armor. Neither really has an edge in that area.

8 hours ago, Alevon said:

Now that everybody but me has been able to ride shotgun in the USS Georgia, I was wondering what you captains thoughts are on a theoretical fight between the battleships USS Missouri and USS Georgia?

Well, I have both. Obviously a lot more in Missouri as I have had it a long time and Georgia just came out. Both ships are very good; with strengths and weaknesses. I do not think it is as clear cut one way or the other as some seem to think. It is not a hands down win for either ship.

Someone above said it would come down to the Capt vs Capt element and I tend to agree with this. Whichever one makes the big mistake loses such as showing too much side or the MO Capt allowing Georgia to get close where the secondary guns come into play. Georgia wants to close the distance whereas MO wants to keep it long. RNG most likely enters into it too. If one player gets a lucky salvo, or is blessed with a lot of fires, that can swing the game too through no fault of the other player nor flaw of the ship.

Armor between the 2 is so close as to be almost identical so no real advantage to either. MO has more HP and can heal more back but Georgia has the fast cool down repair. MO has the edge there in a long drawn out battle while Georgia has the edge in a fast and close brawl type battle.

I would take MO's guns over Georgia's because they are almost as accurate (in practice vs on paper) and there are more of them. Georgia will need APRM2 if it wants to maximize it's accuracy with just 6 guns vs MBM3 for super fast reload. So 26 sec vs 30 sec is an edge to Georgia but not huge. I guess both could go with MBM3 for faster reload but both ships should have APRM2. Slight edge Georgia BUT it can not overmatch so if MO angles properly it greatly mitigates Georgia's gun damage and faster reload.

MO has the edge in long range gunnery for sure. If the Capt can keep the Georgia at range he can land shots and maybe destroy a turret, get a plunging fire citadel, or something similar that makes a big impact. Georgia can too but the ship tends to bracket a lot at range despite it's excellent accuracy. 9 shells vs just 6 heavily favors MO in a long range dual. MO also has the actual range advantage by a big margin but in a 1v1 it will be useless because neither player will be able to spot each other at their max ranges.

Georgia has the speed edge while the engine boost consumable is active but otherwise they have the same 33 knots so slight speed edge Georgia to close the distance or widen it as needed if the consumable is available.  MO has radar but I am not sure how much edge that gives it 1v1? Maybe if the battle ends up in and around islands but otherwise the range is not enough to matter due to both ships detection ranges. Georgia's spotter actually is more valuable 1v1 IMO than the radar. 

Will the Capt's be 19pt'ers and will the skills be optimized for each ship or will there be a basic say 10pt generic Capt? If Georgia has a 19pt Capt and builds to maximize it's secondary guns with BFT/AFT/MS/IFHE it loses other skills because that is 15 of the 19 right there. No SI, No FP, No CE, etc... If it does not use those skills it's secondary guns are not as good and not as big of a plus for it so it kind of needs to because 6 guns vs 9 guns if both go tank build heavily favors MO. MO on the other hand can go for a tank/survivability build with it's 19pt Capt which will help mitigate Georgia's secondary advantage AND it can run CE and thus have a small stealth edge. So Capt skills matter too.

As said, each ship has it's strengths and weaknesses. I really think it comes down to the 2 people playing them. Whoever blinks 1st most likely loses. For example, a player tries to get greedy and swing the butt out to use the rear guns thus exposing too much side and losing 20-30K. Maybe one player runs HE all game and thus misses a chance to get a huge strike on the opponent if AP was loaded. If RNG heavily favors one player over the other that can be a huge factor too. 

Missouri is a very good ship and so is Georgia. Neither is really superior to the other; just different. Too close to call. Personally I would probably take Missouri into that fight because I am more comfortable with it and feel the 9 guns give me the edge.

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4 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Actually no it can't. Missouri has a 32MM bow and 457MM can not overmatch that; only Yamato and Musashi with the 460's can do that.

Missouri and Georgia have almost identical armor. Neither really has an edge in that area.

 

:Smile_great: Then please explain where @NoZoupForYou  and others say  Georgia  has inadequate armor to really go toe to toe with other tier 9's or are you  saying  Iowa,Missouri,Georgia All Have Inadequate  to go toe to toe with other tier 9's?  Secondly if your ducking it out at long range not wanting close then you use HE 

 

Edited by shadowsrmine
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12 hours ago, shadowsrmine said:

Only if the  Missouri  let the Georgia  get within range

I'm not seeing how either's long range band even matters for this fight. Neither of them will see each other until at the best under 17km. With actual concealment builds this will be much lower. If MO tries to get distance and abuse her range advantage, and somehow GA doesn't use speed boost to prevent that, all GA has to do is go dark and drop out of detection and then close however under concealment. GA controls that aspect of the fight utterly unless the captain does not wish to do so for whatever reason.

A lot of things in this matchup could go either way due to gun density (although GA's accuracy in practice still slants it for her), like who goes where while they can't see each other and where islands are/how they're used by each, but their max range differences sure ain't one of those variables.

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It would be easy for Georgia to win. 

She stays concealed until she hits her concealment threshold. 

At this point you rush the Missouri at full speed  once you are revealed. 

Georgia's 38-39 knot speed will allow her to easily get within 10km of missouri. 

 

Once you are within secondary ranges, keep a slight angle and use your manual secondaries to rip missouri to shreds. 

 

A properly captained Georgia with a full secondary build would wreck Missouri hard.  Missouri has no chance because she cant dictate the engagement ranges due to Georgias speed. 

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2 hours ago, shadowsrmine said:

:Smile_great: Then please explain where @NoZoupForYou  and others say  Georgia  has inadequate armor to really go toe to toe with other tier 9's or are you  saying  Iowa,Missouri,Georgia All Have Inadequate  to go toe to toe with other tier 9's?  Secondly if your ducking it out at long range not wanting close then you use HE  

Georgia/Iowa/Missouri all have the same basic armor scheme with some small differences here and there (most of which mean nothing really). None of them have great armor really. Can bow tank with perfect angling but super squishy sides. I made the comment about armor because the post I quoted said one had better armor then the other, in relation to the 2 ships fighting each other (this has nothing to do with their armor vs other T9's), and they don't. Armor is a wash in Georgia v Missouri.

As I said, the armor is a wash (even if you include Iowa) as it is the same basic thing on all 3 (again slight differences)...

Note - WG has called the same armor pieces on Georgia by different names than on Iowa/Missouri in some areas even though it is in same thing (will note name difference in parentheses).

Fore/Aft Plating & Fore/Aft Deck Armor:

  • 32MM - all 3

Main Deck Armor:

  • 38MM - all 3

Superstructure:

  • 19MM - all 3

Auxiliary Room Armor:

  • None - all 3

Upper Torp Bulge(Plating)/Lower Torp Bulge (Plating):

  • 38MM/38MM - Missouri
  • 38MM/32MM - Georgia
  • 32MM/32MM - Iowa

Upper Armor Belt/Lower Armor Belt:

  • 38MM/310MM - Georgia
  • 38MM/307MM - Iowa & Missouri

Upper/Mid/Lower Citadel Belt/Plating (Torp Bulkhead):

  • 297MM/163MM/58MM - all 3

Athwartships Armor Upper/Mid/Lower (Forward):

  • 16MM/368MM/297MM - Missouri
  • 16MM/343MM/216MM - Georgia
  • 16MM/287MM/216MM - Iowa

Athwartships Armor Upper/Mid/Lower (Aft):

  • 16MM/368MM/16MM - Missouri
  • 16MM/343MM/16MM - Georgia
  • 16MM/287MM/16MM - Iowa

Turret & Barbette Armor:

  • 184MM-540MM - Georgia
  • 184MM-439MM - Missouri & Iowa

So as you can see there is very little real difference in the armor between Georgia and Missouri for the purposes of this thread topic. Iowa has the same overall layout and scheme but would have to be considered the most lightly armored of the 3. Getting back to Georgia v Missouri each has 1 main edge...

  • Missouri - can bow tank a bit better as it has better athwartships armor protecting the citadel. If shells get through the 32MM for end plating there is more armor on Missouri than Georgia to stop it from getting into the citadel. This is also really the main difference in the armor between Iowa and Missouri as well.
  • Georgia - has more robust turret armor (face and sides). This will mean it is less likely to lose a turret than Missouri which is important if you only have 6 guns. Missouri can lose a turret and still match Georgia gun for gun.

Otherwise the armor is a wash as I stated.


I respectfully disagree you use HE at long range when "duking" it out. AP can be very effective at range. It can come down through the top of a turret (weakest armor on any of them 184MM) and take it out and it can also plunge through the deck for citadels. At range people seem to feel safer and show more side so a side citadel is possible too. Normal pen damage to the upper hull and superstructure can be massive as well. Can you use HE? Sure. Do you have to? No. 

If I was playing one of the ships fighting the other pretty much my HE use would be limited to times when both ships engage in protracted bow tanking and I am not getting RNG's blessings trying to take out a turret with my AP. Otherwise, IMO, HE is a waste as the AP on both is so good. Having HE loaded means you might miss that once in the game chance to 1 shot or seriously cripple the opponent. 

Edited by AdmiralThunder

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assuming equal player skill, the Georgia would come out ahead

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11 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Actually no it can't. Missouri has a 32MM bow and 457MM can not overmatch that; only Yamato and Musashi with the 460's can do that.

Missouri and Georgia have almost identical armor. Neither really has an edge in that area.

Well, I have both. Obviously a lot more in Missouri as I have had it a long time and Georgia just came out. Both ships are very good; with strengths and weaknesses. I do not think it is as clear cut one way or the other as some seem to think. It is not a hands down win for either ship.

Someone above said it would come down to the Capt vs Capt element and I tend to agree with this. Whichever one makes the big mistake loses such as showing too much side or the MO Capt allowing Georgia to get close where the secondary guns come into play. Georgia wants to close the distance whereas MO wants to keep it long. RNG most likely enters into it too. If one player gets a lucky salvo, or is blessed with a lot of fires, that can swing the game too through no fault of the other player nor flaw of the ship.

Armor between the 2 is so close as to be almost identical so no real advantage to either. MO has more HP and can heal more back but Georgia has the fast cool down repair. MO has the edge there in a long drawn out battle while Georgia has the edge in a fast and close brawl type battle.

I would take MO's guns over Georgia's because they are almost as accurate (in practice vs on paper) and there are more of them. Georgia will need APRM2 if it wants to maximize it's accuracy with just 6 guns vs MBM3 for super fast reload. So 26 sec vs 30 sec is an edge to Georgia but not huge. I guess both could go with MBM3 for faster reload but both ships should have APRM2. Slight edge Georgia BUT it can not overmatch so if MO angles properly it greatly mitigates Georgia's gun damage and faster reload.

MO has the edge in long range gunnery for sure. If the Capt can keep the Georgia at range he can land shots and maybe destroy a turret, get a plunging fire citadel, or something similar that makes a big impact. Georgia can too but the ship tends to bracket a lot at range despite it's excellent accuracy. 9 shells vs just 6 heavily favors MO in a long range dual. MO also has the actual range advantage by a big margin but in a 1v1 it will be useless because neither player will be able to spot each other at their max ranges.

Georgia has the speed edge while the engine boost consumable is active but otherwise they have the same 33 knots so slight speed edge Georgia to close the distance or widen it as needed if the consumable is available.  MO has radar but I am not sure how much edge that gives it 1v1? Maybe if the battle ends up in and around islands but otherwise the range is not enough to matter due to both ships detection ranges. Georgia's spotter actually is more valuable 1v1 IMO than the radar.

As said, each ship has it's strengths and weaknesses. I really think it comes down to the 2 people playing them. Whoever blinks 1st most likely loses. For example, a player tries to get greedy and swing the butt out to use the rear guns thus exposing too much side and losing 20-30K. Maybe one player runs HE all game and thus misses a chance to get a huge strike on the opponent if AP was loaded. If RNG heavily favors one player over the other that can be a huge factor too. 

Missouri is a very good ship and so is Georgia. Neither is really superior to the other; just different. Too close to call. Personally I would probably take Missouri into that fight because I am more comfortable with it and feel the 9 guns give me the edge.

Very much appreciate your opinion, Admiral!

I'd love for someone to Youtube a fight between the two with 19 pts captains, and veteran commanders.

I wonder what the other seasoned contributors like Mouse would have to say. I love her technical analyses....

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5 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Georgia/Iowa/Missouri all have the same basic armor scheme with some small differences here and there (most of which mean nothing really). None of them have great armor really. Can bow tank with perfect angling but super squishy sides. I made the comment about armor because the post I quoted said one had better armor then the other, in relation to the 2 ships fighting each other (this has nothing to do with their armor vs other T9's), and they don't. Armor is a wash in Georgia v Missouri.

As I said, the armor is a wash (even if you include Iowa) as it is the same basic thing on all 3 (again slight differences)...

Note - WG has called the same armor pieces on Georgia by different names than on Iowa/Missouri in some areas even though it is in same thing (will note name difference in parentheses).

Fore/Aft Plating & Fore/Aft Deck Armor:

  • 32MM - all 3

Main Deck Armor:

  • 38MM - all 3

Superstructure:

  • 19MM - all 3

Auxiliary Room Armor:

  • None - all 3

Upper Torp Bulge(Plating)/Lower Torp Bulge (Plating):

  • 38MM/38MM - Missouri
  • 38MM/32MM - Georgia
  • 32MM/32MM - Iowa

Upper Armor Belt/Lower Armor Belt:

  • 38MM/310MM - Georgia
  • 38MM/307MM - Iowa & Missouri

Upper/Mid/Lower Citadel Belt/Plating (Torp Bulkhead):

  • 297MM/163MM/58MM - all 3

Athwartships Armor Upper/Mid/Lower (Forward):

  • 16MM/368MM/297MM - Missouri
  • 16MM/343MM/216MM - Georgia
  • 16MM/287MM/216MM - Iowa

Athwartships Armor Upper/Mid/Lower (Aft):

  • 16MM/368MM/16MM - Missouri
  • 16MM/343MM/16MM - Georgia
  • 16MM/287MM/16MM - Iowa

Turret & Barbette Armor:

  • 184MM-540MM - Georgia
  • 184MM-439MM - Missouri & Iowa

So as you can see there is very little real difference in the armor between Georgia and Missouri for the purposes of this thread topic. Iowa has the same overall layout and scheme but would have to be considered the most lightly armored of the 3. Getting back to Georgia v Missouri each has 1 main edge...

  • Missouri - can bow tank a bit better as it has better athwartships armor protecting the citadel. If shells get through the 32MM for end plating there is more armor on Missouri than Georgia to stop it from getting into the citadel. This is also really the main difference in the armor between Iowa and Missouri as well.
  • Georgia - has more robust turret armor (face and sides). This will mean it is less likely to lose a turret than Missouri which is important if you only have 6 guns. Missouri can lose a turret and still match Georgia gun for gun.

Otherwise the armor is a wash as I stated.


I respectfully disagree you use HE at long range when "duking" it out. AP can be very effective at range. It can come down through the top of a turret (weakest armor on any of them 184MM) and take it out and it can also plunge through the deck for citadels. At range people seem to feel safer and show more side so a side citadel is possible too. Normal pen damage to the upper hull and superstructure can be massive as well. Can you use HE? Sure. Do you have to? No. 

If I was playing one of the ships fighting the other pretty much my HE use would be limited to times when both ships engage in protracted bow tanking and I am not getting RNG's blessings trying to take out a turret with my AP. Otherwise, IMO, HE is a waste as the AP on both is so good. Having HE loaded means you might miss that once in the game chance to 1 shot or seriously cripple the opponent. 

:Smile_great: In that case what with all the  :etc_swear:  about Georgia,Massachusetts being OP  range is18-20 Km other ships of their tier out range  and out armor them

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