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general_D_H_Chun

Imagine the single most powerful European battleship getting powercreeped by Stalin's pipe dream

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The title was more of an attention grabber than anything. No, no ship "deserves" to be powerful. The Russian battleships aren't particularly braindead to play, and they encourage something good. So, I have nothing against RU BBs. 

However, it raises an issue that has been gaining in attention for a while now.

why would you play a German BB?

The Russians brought the 60mm bow and effective armor plating of the Germans. Except their guns behaved at close quarters. And you could completely protect yourself via angling while still firing all your guns. 

Another problem is that the Germans have disproportionately weak armor belts. 380 millimeters. The historical basis for this is that the armor scheme necessitated more armor overall, while sacrificing armor thickness over vital areas. There's a problem, however. Kremlin, almost the same armor layout as the Kurfurst. She boasts 60mm lower bow, a thicker, 60mm deck, and the same 150mm upper belt. However, she gets the 430mm armor belt. Kurfurst, however, gets only 380mm. That would be considered medicre for a tier nine and okay for a tier eight. At tier ten, what this means, is that you eat colossal damage at all ranges from armor piercing. You can't go bow in because it means sacrificing half your inconsistent firepower, but firing from all four turrets means you're giving broadside. And given that Kremlin and Kurfurst both have turning radiuses of over a kilometer, I think Kurfurst deserves at the very least to be better protected, or her gun angles improved. She simply struggles at this degree. Alas, even the improved repair party of the premium high tier secondary USN BBs, or the specialized damage control of the Russian battleships are denied from the Germans. Simply put, they have to contend with very poor tools to ensure that they even survive approaching brawling distance.

Furthermore, the Germans have a problem when it comes to accuracy. With Kremlin, the dispersion at, say, 11km, is incredibly strong. I've been able to pinpoint the weakspots of cruisers this past ranked season. Given that her sigma is 1.9, while Kurfurst has 1.8, she also has a higher chance of seeing exceptional salvos at even longer ranges. Couple this with the highest pen of any t10 BB (correct me on this, I may be wrong), and a very impressive shell travel time, she's certainly a solid ship to work with.

Kurfurst, however, not even can you angle while firing, you also struggle with accuracy, which behaves very poorly at any range.

I am not calling the Russian dispersion formula stupid or broken. I find it a great addition to the game, one that encourages intelligent BB play. The RU BBs certainly are very welcome to be included, especially from a playerbase that had been expecting a line of buffer Stalingrads.

...I just feel the Germans deserve something to compensate as well. Something that would make them less painful to play.

 

 

Proposal 

One such "German BB rework" could be that the overall accuracy is very good, however, the shell damage scales inversely with the horizontal distance it travels.

They could have good dispersion, akin to that of the Duke of York, with her 2.05 sigma (again, correct me on this), however, the alpha at, say, 20km would be a rather poor 8-10k for Kurfurst, while if I reach, say, 10km, I would be dealing essentially Kremlin shells in damage, while at 14km, they'd have around 10-12k alpha.

Their inside 12 km dispersion wouldn't be able to match RU BBs, but they'd compensate with higher alpha, yet smaller calliber.

Before you point out how broken this system would potentially be, please note that it's an example of what they could receive. They could be compensated by longer reload, slightly worse sigma at closer ranges, etc.

 

Second Proposal

Just give them higher sigma. It's not a metric for accuracy, but it gives statistically better salvos. Tirpitz and Bismarck both need something higher than 1.8 in the current meta.

 

Third Proposal

Make Secondaries actually threatening or viable. I tested a fully secondary specced Bismarck in training room, and it took the ship a grand total of five minutes to kill a Fuso without his damage control, meaning most of the damage came from fires. They lack accuracy, they lack range, they lack penetration, and in order to make them somewhat usable, you instantly have to give up fire prevention, tankiness, concealment, basically a whole bunch of things you probably need to consistently even get within your questionable secondary range of not even 12 kilometers. Furthermore, you sacrifice gun performance even more by giving up 7% of your maximum dispersion. It's really not fun.

At least make them accurate enough to actually reliably do something more than tickle the enemy.

And please, if they're such a national strength, then make it so the BB doesn't have to sacrifice everything just so his secondaries can reach out to 11km to tickle the enemy.

All in all, I'm happy the Russian BBs are here, but the Germans deserve love as well. Again, please don't call out "hey this is broken" because they're just meaningless theorycrafting. The point is that German BBs need a major overhaul. Cheers.

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Again, I mean to iterate that the title was more a humorous jab than a legitimate complaint. I don't mind a Russian company making good Russian ships.

Edited by general_D_H_Chun

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All I feel they need is their main battery dispersion tightened up a bit. Not asking for anything drastic, just about 25 meters taken off their horizontal dispersion. Biggest case in point would be Gneisenau. Six rifles coupled with German dispersion really hurts. When you're only hitting 2-3 shots average at >10 kilometers, it's painful. Really painful.

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I have to agree here.  I like Kremlin and like the playstyle where in the right hands her balance may be questionable when pitted against her contemporaries... however with the traits they bring to the table, along with the inherent weaknesses the German BB line have they are 100% obsolete in my opinion.  

The only tools and situations I can imagine GK still being more useful is trading in broadside jousting, and pushing into DD-occupied smoke with hydro.  The former I don't feel is incredibly important, the latter I feel is just taking advantage of a situation that won't happen as often as one would like.

In the end, why have good secondaries when you can land precise hits into superstructure with the main battery?  Why have turtleback when you can have armor just as good when angled but deck armor that protects against most HE spammers?  Why have hydro because your maneuverability is so poor when you can have good TDS and a decent rudder anyway?  Why should you have to sacrifice AA protection when being a huge armored target when you can be arguably better armored WITH good AA?  

In the end, why choose GK over Kremlin?  Hydro pushing, Broadside jousting, and secondary memes.  That's it in my opinion.  At this point, while I cannot speak to the German DD line outside of commentary from experienced friends... I don't think there's any reason to choose any German ships over the other nations' counterparts.  I'm not saying they are bad ships and unusable either (because I know this is how someone will immediately react seeing my post), but what I AM saying is, is that you can choose other ships that can do what they do, and better with German trait benefits being edge cases rather than practical in the general sense.

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33 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

I don't mind a Russian company making good Russian ships.

Oh Tiger, no one ever makes good Russian ships; they only DRAW good Russian ships.

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Agree fully that German BBs are obsolete. They were supposed to be the “close-range brawlers,” and maybe they were: In 2016. Supposedly their “great secondaries” (the fire chance of the 105s was nerfed a long time ago) and “turtleback,” which allegedly made them better for yoloing enemies broadside and not getting citadeled, gave them “national flavor” in brawls. They paid for these “advantages” with god-awful dispersion and, in the case of the GK, absurdly bad gun angles. 

Look, WG is never a fan of anything German (cough, cough, WoT) and probably doesn’t see an issue here. But the Russian BBs are definitely formidable brawlers—and they have an incentive to close in because they get magnificent dispersion up close (wouldn’t that be grand with a GK??). 

German BBs definitely need some love to make up for the huge changes that have happened since 2016. Something to make their guns better at close range would be great, as would a secondary rework that actually makes “German secondaries” unique and attractive—attractive enough to sink 14 skill points into, anyway. Brawling is a big risk in the stealth/island camp/long-range meta, so if WG wants a line to brawl, they should give it incentives to so. Right now, the German BB don’t have many, especially when other lines can do more things better. 

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39 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Oh Tiger, no one ever makes good Russian ships; they only DRAW good Russian ships.

  That got me to chuckle

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43 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Oh Tiger, no one ever makes good Russian ships; they only DRAW good Russian ships.

 

3 minutes ago, silverdahc said:

  That got me to chuckle

I LOL'd. Well done, Umi. 

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4 hours ago, Umikami said:

Oh Tiger, no one ever makes good Russian ships; they only DRAW good Russian ships.

Fair enough-

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