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Col_Nasty

Sharing links to History?

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Since playing this game I have learned so much.  Raised in the USAF and Serving in the USA  101st  I never learned very much about the Navy.. even though we settled in San Diego 40 years ago LOL.  I see people talk about the ships in a historical way all the time but I find articles often as I get curios about the Boat I am playing and WOW! some of them have great stories about them and the people on them.  Just finished playing the Helena and so I went to go see photos of her IRL only to find out that she was sunk.  Most of them men were saved right away but many were on a island avoiding the Japanese being helped by Natives in loincloths.

 

When I find things like this I want to post a link.  Is that allowed?  I would be shocked if someone hasn't started one ( outside or WIKI that is ) of other articles.  Some of the photos are amazing.

 

Col Out

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Unless the originating site has link restrictions, I think doing so is normally okay.

Many players share things they find here.

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25 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Unless the originating site has link restrictions, I think doing so is normally okay.

Many players share things they find here.

Thanks!  The Helena story is amazing.  SO is the Yamato

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I enjoy all the naval history posts and links. The historical aspect of this game is the primary reasion I play it.

 

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So long as the discussion stays factual, respectful, and on-topic, historical discussions are usually welcome here.

The most common derailments occur when politics (historical or contemporary) starts to creep into the discussion, and that will get any thread locked, so avoid that.

Edited by Edgecase
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18 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Since playing this game I have learned so much.  Raised in the USAF and Serving in the USA  101st  I never learned very much about the Navy.. even though we settled in San Diego 40 years ago LOL.  I see people talk about the ships in a historical way all the time but I find articles often as I get curios about the Boat I am playing and WOW! some of them have great stories about them and the people on them.  Just finished playing the Helena and so I went to go see photos of her IRL only to find out that she was sunk.  Most of them men were saved right away but many were on a island avoiding the Japanese being helped by Natives in loincloths.

 

When I find things like this I want to post a link.  Is that allowed?  I would be shocked if someone hasn't started one ( outside or WIKI that is ) of other articles.  Some of the photos are amazing.

 

Col Out

Hey Col_Nasty,

Historical responses/articles are great to share but make sure they stay on topic and away from political topics. 

This might be a great place for you to scour through and see what has been covered: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/forum/324-historical-discussion/

Edgecase said it best, keep it on topic and it will be fine!

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18 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Since playing this game I have learned so much.  Raised in the USAF and Serving in the USA  101st  I never learned very much about the Navy.. even though we settled in San Diego 40 years ago LOL.  I see people talk about the ships in a historical way all the time but I find articles often as I get curios about the Boat I am playing and WOW! some of them have great stories about them and the people on them.  Just finished playing the Helena and so I went to go see photos of her IRL only to find out that she was sunk.  Most of them men were saved right away but many were on a island avoiding the Japanese being helped by Natives in loincloths.

 

When I find things like this I want to post a link.  Is that allowed?  I would be shocked if someone hasn't started one ( outside or WIKI that is ) of other articles.  Some of the photos are amazing.

 

Col Out

For a good novel, based upon actual WW2 events, "Battle of the April Storm", by, ummm, Len Dieghton, I think.  Based upon the fight between the RN Glowworm, a DD, and the German Admiral Hipper and it's escorts.  It's what hooked me on this stuff.

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19 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Since playing this game I have learned so much.  Raised in the USAF and Serving in the USA  101st  I never learned very much about the Navy.. even though we settled in San Diego 40 years ago LOL.  I see people talk about the ships in a historical way all the time but I find articles often as I get curios about the Boat I am playing and WOW! some of them have great stories about them and the people on them.  Just finished playing the Helena and so I went to go see photos of her IRL only to find out that she was sunk.  Most of them men were saved right away but many were on a island avoiding the Japanese being helped by Natives in loincloths.

 

When I find things like this I want to post a link.  Is that allowed?  I would be shocked if someone hasn't started one ( outside or WIKI that is ) of other articles.  Some of the photos are amazing.

 

Col Out

If you wanna read about Helena and know her awsome deeds, read:James D. Hornfischer. Its a relatively new book on the matter and its very detailed.

In addition there is http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/050/04050.htm Which is a government website or a derivative thereof.

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18 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Since playing this game I have learned so much.  Raised in the USAF and Serving in the USA  101st  I never learned very much about the Navy.. even though we settled in San Diego 40 years ago LOL.  I see people talk about the ships in a historical way all the time but I find articles often as I get curios about the Boat I am playing and WOW! some of them have great stories about them and the people on them.  Just finished playing the Helena and so I went to go see photos of her IRL only to find out that she was sunk.  Most of them men were saved right away but many were on a island avoiding the Japanese being helped by Natives in loincloths.

 

When I find things like this I want to post a link.  Is that allowed?  I would be shocked if someone hasn't started one ( outside or WIKI that is ) of other articles.  Some of the photos are amazing.

 

Col Out

Naval Warfare can be quite nasty.  In WWII alone you can find instances where you can appreciate "Not being there."

 

There's a lot of cases where Allied & Axis ship encounters in the northern waters, i.e. those Western Allied supply runs to help the Soviet Union, i.e. the trips towards Murmansk.  The Germans tried a lot to intercept such convoys.  There's cases where these ships are fighting in the middle of the night in ultra cold waters.  Ships sinking, sometimes taking all hands down with them.  Or if the guys somehow survive the sinking, they won't last long in the dark, freezing waters.  Lots of sailors in general died like that.  There's even cases where winning ships won't stay long in an area to find survivors because of the threat of submarines.  Scharnhorst was lost in one of such engagements.  The Allies eventually got the better side of this and the convoys were never stopped.  

 

Scharnhorst's loss in 1943 was an interesting one because her Radar was knocked out so early in the fight.  Meanwhile all the British had theirs, including Duke of York.  The RN was also using flashless powder, which for the Germans being reduced to relying on reacting to gun flashes while the British had Radar directed gunfire... This was going to go bad for the Kriegsmarine.  This would be the 2nd to last Battleship on Battleship engagement, the last one being Surigao Strait in late 1944.

 

Out in the Pacific, the oceans are vast and still deadly in different ways.  For the Japanese, life was dangerous as a crewman aboard a cargo ship.  US Submarines ran rampant on Imperial Japan.  The Allies devoted considerable time, technology, and resources to beat the U-Boat threat, but Japan didn't have those luxuries against the USN's Submarines.  Even for the IJN itself, the Submarine threat had gotten so bad that a bunch of their warships were getting picked off by them.  If you ever start reading the history of IJN ships, you start encountering a shocking, regular occurrence of their ships being sunk by US Submarines.  It was so bad that the USN issued directives for their Submarines to attack Japanese Destroyers, knowing full well that Japan couldn't replace them.  The Hunters became the Hunted.  Cruisers, even Carriers were being destroyed.  Shokaku, Taiho, the incomplete Shinano were sunk by submarines.

 

If you want a horrifying read on the sinking of a warship, read up on Shokaku's sinking.

 

There is also the brutality between the nations when it came to the Pacific War.  I have no doubt that survivors in the waters were either shot in the water, or picked up and executed.  It's happened in Midway, it's happened in many other locations, and lord knows what happened in those small encounters out in the middle of nowhere.  The nature of the war with the Allies vs Japan wasn't the same as Allies vs Germany.  In the war with Germany, both sides took care of prisoners when possible.  Not so in the Pacific.  The Pacific War is loaded with brutality.  You had Japanese submarines attacking convoys, shooting survivors in the water or bringing them aboard for execution, or chaining men together, weighting them, and throwing them into the ocean.  It wouldn't surprise me if the USN did the same, especially when people found out more about Japanese brutality.  The cycle keeps going.  In "Japanese Destroyer Captain" the author survived his ship's sinking in Operation Ten-Go, the suicide sortie of Yamato.  He was in the water and he spoke about later flights of USN aircraft flying around and strafing survivors.  He spoke of a PBY Catalina flying over to pick up a nearby, downed American pilot, and left the Japanese in the water.  They were right f--king there.  You also had an interesting case during the fighting in the Solomon Islands, in the months after Guadalcanal, where the USN had a night engagement with the IJN, sinking Japanese DDs loaded with IJA soldiers headed to reinforce an island garrison.  When American rescuers were picking up men out of the water after the battle, the Japanese refused rescue.

 

In the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, where the Allies destroyed a Japanese convoy with DDs and transports full of soldiers from Rabaul to New Guinea, it was a brutal bloodbath.  You had a case where a B-17 was lost and the parachuting crewmen were being shot by Japanese fighters, even while in the water, and the Allies responded in kind.  In post-battle rescue attempts by the Japanese, PT Boats arrived to attack them.  What happens when aircraft shoot up transports full of troops?  From one of the B-25 aviators:

 

"They went in and hit this troop ship. What I saw looked like little sticks, maybe a foot long or something like that, or splinters flying up off the deck of ship; they’d fly all around ... and twist crazily in the air and fall out in the water. Then I realized what I was watching were human beings. I was watching hundreds of those Japanese just blown off the deck by those machine guns. They just splintered around the air like sticks in a whirlwind and they’d fall in the water."

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There is also the brutality between the nations when it came to the Pacific War. 

This cannot be overstated. But the brutality between the US and Japan at the time makes stories like Inazuma and Ikazuchi even more compelling

 

On 2 March 1942, Ikazuchi, along with Inazuma, rescued 442 survivors from the destroyers HMS Encounter and USS Pope. These ships had been sunk the previous day in the Second Battle of the Java Sea, along with the cruiser HMS Exeter, in the Java Sea between Java and Borneo, off Surabaya. The survivors had been adrift for some 20 hours, in rafts and lifejackets or clinging to floats, many coated in oil and unable to see. Among the rescued was Sir Sam Falle, later a British diplomat. This humanitarian decision by Lieutenant Commander Shunsaku Kudō placed Ikazuchi at risk of submarine attack, and interfered with her fighting ability due to the sheer numbers of rescued sailors. The action was later the subject of a book and a 2007 TV program; "The Untold Story of Captain Kudo Shunsaku and the Destroyer Ikazuchi".
 

As I recall it, after picking up all these sailors, the two ships put into a neutral port and "lost" them.

 

Made even more incredible was that not only was there risk of submarines, but Ikazuchi had actually been unsuccessfully attacked already, and another submarine attack sank a Japanese medical ship laden with supplies and injured soldiers. But rather than seek revenge, Captain Kudo and his men helped their fellow human beings.

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28 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

This cannot be overstated. But the brutality between the US and Japan at the time makes stories like Inazuma and Ikazuchi even more compelling

 

On 2 March 1942, Ikazuchi, along with Inazuma, rescued 442 survivors from the destroyers HMS Encounter and USS Pope. These ships had been sunk the previous day in the Second Battle of the Java Sea, along with the cruiser HMS Exeter, in the Java Sea between Java and Borneo, off Surabaya. The survivors had been adrift for some 20 hours, in rafts and lifejackets or clinging to floats, many coated in oil and unable to see. Among the rescued was Sir Sam Falle, later a British diplomat. This humanitarian decision by Lieutenant Commander Shunsaku Kudō placed Ikazuchi at risk of submarine attack, and interfered with her fighting ability due to the sheer numbers of rescued sailors. The action was later the subject of a book and a 2007 TV program; "The Untold Story of Captain Kudo Shunsaku and the Destroyer Ikazuchi".
 

As I recall it, after picking up all these sailors, the two ships put into a neutral port and "lost" them.

 

Made even more incredible was that not only was there risk of submarines, but Ikazuchi had actually been unsuccessfully attacked already, and another submarine attack sank a Japanese medical ship laden with supplies and injured soldiers. But rather than seek revenge, Captain Kudo and his men helped their fellow human beings.

There's crazy sh*t that happened so much in the Pacific.  It was so bad, that there is one guy I feel paid the price when his conduct said otherwise.  General Yamashita was in charge of the defenses in the Philippines in late 1944.  He was pulling his forces back, ordering a military evacuation of Manila and concentrate his troops in the easier to defend mountains.  Except the guy in charge of the SNLF and IJN sailors that was supposed to be under Yamashita, ordered his men back into Manila and fought in the city, against orders by Yamashita.  Numerous atrocities were done, as well as the subsequent battle devastating the city.  It also has to be said that the officer in charge of the naval contingent was the old captain of Battleship Kirishima when she went down and was looking to use Manila to redeem himself.

 

As far as I've read, Yamashita's conduct had been clean.  But in the post-war warcrimes trials, he was condemned and eventually executed due to the actions of a subordinate that disobeyed his orders to begin with, orders that would not have allowed a Battle of Manila to begin with because all Japanese troops would have been in the mountains.

 

If anyone wants to get an idea of the widespread scale of brutality in the Pacific, this 2001 documentary "Hell in the Pacific" is a good starting place.  Everyone participated in this, which is a very stark contrast to the "cleaner" fighting in Western Europe and the Mediterranean Theaters.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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3 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There's crazy sh*t that happened so much in the Pacific.  It was so bad, that there is one guy I feel paid the price when his conduct said otherwise.  General Yamashita was in charge of the defenses in the Philippines in late 1944.  He was pulling his forces back, ordering a military evacuation of Manila and concentrate his troops in the easier to defend mountains.  Except the guy in charge of the SNLF and IJN sailors that was supposed to be under Yamashita, ordered his men back into Manila and fought in the city, against orders by Yamashita.  Numerous atrocities were done, as well as the subsequent battle devastating the city.  It also has to be said that the officer in charge of the naval contingent was the old captain of Battleship Kirishima when she went down and was looking to use Manila to redeem himself.

 

As far as I've read, Yamashita's conduct had been clean.  But in the post-war warcrimes trials, he was condemned and eventually executed due to the actions of a subordinate that disobeyed his orders to begin with, orders that would not have allowed a Battle of Manila to begin with because all Japanese troops would have been in the mountains.

 

If anyone wants to get an idea of the widespread scale of brutality in the Pacific, this 2001 documentary "Hell in the Pacific" is a good starting place.  Everyone participated in this, which is a very stark contrast to the "cleaner" fighting in Western Europe and the Mediterranean Theaters.

 

I'm not trying to say bad things didn't happen. I just said that all the bad things make the few good things which happened kinda miraculous.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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14 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There's crazy sh*t that happened so much in the Pacific.  It was so bad, that there is one guy I feel paid the price when his conduct said otherwise.  General Yamashita was in charge of the defenses in the Philippines in late 1944.  He was pulling his forces back, ordering a military evacuation of Manila and concentrate his troops in the easier to defend mountains.  Except the guy in charge of the SNLF and IJN sailors that was supposed to be under Yamashita, ordered his men back into Manila and fought in the city, against orders by Yamashita.  Numerous atrocities were done, as well as the subsequent battle devastating the city.  It also has to be said that the officer in charge of the naval contingent was the old captain of Battleship Kirishima when she went down and was looking to use Manila to redeem himself.

 

As far as I've read, Yamashita's conduct had been clean.  But in the post-war warcrimes trials, he was condemned and eventually executed due to the actions of a subordinate that disobeyed his orders to begin with, orders that would not have allowed a Battle of Manila to begin with because all Japanese troops would have been in the mountains.

 

If anyone wants to get an idea of the widespread scale of brutality in the Pacific, this 2001 documentary "Hell in the Pacific" is a good starting place.  Everyone participated in this, which is a very stark contrast to the "cleaner" fighting in Western Europe and the Mediterranean Theaters.

 

 

There was a television docu-drama about the trial of Yamashita made back in the 70s:  "Judgment: The Court Martial of the Tiger of Malaya - General Yamashita." 

Edited by HamptonRoads

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20 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Since playing this game I have learned so much.  Raised in the USAF and Serving in the USA  101st  I never learned very much about the Navy.. even though we settled in San Diego 40 years ago LOL.  I see people talk about the ships in a historical way all the time but I find articles often as I get curios about the Boat I am playing and WOW! some of them have great stories about them and the people on them.  Just finished playing the Helena and so I went to go see photos of her IRL only to find out that she was sunk.  Most of them men were saved right away but many were on a island avoiding the Japanese being helped by Natives in loincloths.

 

When I find things like this I want to post a link.  Is that allowed?  I would be shocked if someone hasn't started one ( outside or WIKI that is ) of other articles.  Some of the photos are amazing.

 

Col Out

There is the "Historical Discussion" area of the forum. Such things should have a home there. On the flip side , since you do have military service, you should know know "military service" and as well "WAR" are not "politically correct". you will come to find out discussion of "WAR" and as well the martial arts  are now in the realms of "history" which has become plagued with political correctness. It was going there in the 1980's  And  so there is a, big "impasse". However pictures themselves are only worth a 1000 words and if you don' t say anything , you put those pc communists over a barrel.  Post some links . always good to see some real history , without getting sticky from the modern funk of made up bull.

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26 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There's crazy sh*t that happened so much in the Pacific.  It was so bad, that there is one guy I feel paid the price when his conduct said otherwise.  General Yamashita was in charge of the defenses in the Philippines in late 1944.  He was pulling his forces back, ordering a military evacuation of Manila and concentrate his troops in the easier to defend mountains.  Except the guy in charge of the SNLF and IJN sailors that was supposed to be under Yamashita, ordered his men back into Manila and fought in the city, against orders by Yamashita.  Numerous atrocities were done, as well as the subsequent battle devastating the city.  It also has to be said that the officer in charge of the naval contingent was the old captain of Battleship Kirishima when she went down and was looking to use Manila to redeem himself.

 

As far as I've read, Yamashita's conduct had been clean.  But in the post-war warcrimes trials, he was condemned and eventually executed due to the actions of a subordinate that disobeyed his orders to begin with, orders that would not have allowed a Battle of Manila to begin with because all Japanese troops would have been in the mountains.

 

If anyone wants to get an idea of the widespread scale of brutality in the Pacific, this 2001 documentary "Hell in the Pacific" is a good starting place.  Everyone participated in this, which is a very stark contrast to the "cleaner" fighting in Western Europe and the Mediterranean Theaters.

 

Had the bad luck  of making MacArthur look bad twice.

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On 6/11/2019 at 9:33 PM, Col_Nasty said:

Thanks!  The Helena story is amazing.  SO is the Yamato

The Yamato was a story of "flagship" follies that was doomed because of it.  Was the constant butt-end of jokes of the line sailors about a rear-echelon ship that sat as the  Harishama Hotel (the main Jp anchorage) through most of the war and had never fired her guns in anger. Then  was "chased off by a DD's of the US fleet in her only surface battle and then later sunk without any effective means of reply or accomplishing anything.

Really more of a tragedy for anyone who served on her. I guess that is 'amazing" in a way. Such is the life of a sailor in a losing fleet

Edited by Strachwitz666

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1 hour ago, Strachwitz666 said:

Had the bad luck  of making MacArthur look bad twice.

MacArthur did a fine job making himself look bad in the 50s.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If anyone wants to get an idea of the widespread scale of brutality in the Pacific, this 2001 documentary "Hell in the Pacific" is a good starting place.  Everyone participated in this, which is a very stark contrast to the "cleaner" fighting in Western Europe and the Mediterranean Theaters.

 

That documentary is real good.

The real tragedy in naval battles was the enviroment they happened. If your ship was sunk near a coast or in a convoy, there was a chance for survial (as long it wasn't a catastrophic damage).

If you go through the list of IJN DD from the book  "The IJN in the Pacific War", most were sunk with total loss of men. 

Many of the battles around the Murmansk convoys were lethal after your ship was sunk. The water temperatures left only a small window of opportunity to be rescued. 

Till the victory against the U Boots in the Atlantic 1943, there were many scary tales what survivors went through even on a small rescueboat. 

And I don't want to think about subs themself. Somewhere in 200 meters dept and no chance to be rescued is scary.

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