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TheDreadnought

An easy tweak to improve Secondary gameplay and reduce questions

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As has been noted, secondaries have a "delay" because they must turn to engage the target, and only do that once the target enters their range.  This is confusing for those who haven't looked at the issue.

In addition, manually designating a target for secondaries has minimal effect right now.  It just causes secondaries to prioritize that target over others if they are in range of more than one.  (There's a benefit to the Captain Skill Manual Secondaries, that also requires you to designate a target, but that's not relevant to this discussion.)

To encourage more active gameplay, and reward people who manage their secondaries actively, even without the captain skill - how about changing the effect of designating a target.

When you designate a target for your secondaries, they will immediately turn and begin to track that target.  Then they will open fire as soon as the target is within range, without any wasted time.

This will give more active players a nice little reward, make designating a secondary target more useful, and reduce questions or confusion around the "delay" when secondaries don't shoot at a target right away.

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@TheDreadnought -- this is a really good suggestion. It's simple, it seems very fair (balanced) and I think it would be quite rewarding. Hopefully it wouldn't be too hard to change the code to implement.

I wholeheartedly support this proposal!!

(come to think of it, I don't think I currently play any ships with secondaries that matter... nevertheless a great suggestion)

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Yeah this seems like a good idea that probably should've been in from the get-go.

Might tie it to the Manual Secondaries skill. Or else, what benefit does Manual Secondaries have over stock at that point?

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1 minute ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Yeah this seems like a good idea that probably should've been in from the get-go.

Might tie it to the Manual Secondaries skill. Or else, what benefit does Manual Secondaries have over stock at that point?

Manual secondaries gives you a huge boost to dispersion.  My own long running secondary experiment showed that the effect of that boost is that it TRIPLES your hit rate.  Definitely still worth while.

All this does is save you an extra second or two before that first salvo.

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Just now, TheDreadnought said:

Manual secondaries gives you a huge boost to dispersion.  My own long running secondary experiment showed that the effect of that boost is that it TRIPLES your hit rate.  Definitely still worth while.

All this does is save you an extra second or two before that first salvo.

Only for T7+. There are T6 and below ships with decent secondaries too, like Arkansas and Mikasa (who still needs a range increase)

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Secondary builds are not relevant, and they should be. Save for a yolo German or a few oddballs (Massachusetts), it really is just a poor use of captain points imo. Saving 2 seconds of engagement time isnt the change we need, but it does make sense and would help. 

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Heyo Captains,

As part of our NA Community Stream last Friday, we actually asked @Sub_Octavian about this delay with 2ndaries and AA, 

You can find his response here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/435911521?t=01h25m10s

It actually has to do with how the loading mechanics.

Fem, 

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1 hour ago, Femennenly said:

Heyo Captains,

As part of our NA Community Stream last Friday, we actually asked @Sub_Octavian about this delay with 2ndaries and AA, 

You can find his response here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/435911521?t=01h25m10s

It actually has to do with how the loading mechanics.

Fem, 

So fix the loading mechanic. You don't start a firefight by slotting in the magazine and racking the bolt. Your gun should already be loaded and ready. The magazine slotting and racking should've been done when the battle timer started, just like with main battery guns and torpedo launchers. They load and then remain loaded until needed, and when no longer in use, load and standby.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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2 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

Manual secondaries gives you a huge boost to dispersion.  My own long running secondary experiment showed that the effect of that boost is that it TRIPLES your hit rate.  Definitely still worth while.

All this does is save you an extra second or two before that first salvo.

It also adds a very juicy eye fruit when tracking enemies. Imo it'll be very healthy for yhe game.

Edited by Crokodone

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52 minutes ago, Femennenly said:

Heyo Captains,

As part of our NA Community Stream last Friday, we actually asked @Sub_Octavian about this delay with 2ndaries and AA, 

You can find his response here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/435911521?t=01h25m10s

It actually has to do with how the loading mechanics.

Thanks for the timestamp.  I went back and reviewed his answer to be sure I had heard him correctly.  He actually skated the question about a secondary delay and turned immediately to AA mechanics, saying that they are analogous.  From this I take it that the secondary delay is considered to make very little difference when you consider that secondaries generate an "aura", like continuous AA.  Neither will produce an instant kill; more like DoT — the target is nibbled to death.  An interesting corollary is that the change would functionally apply only to the first salvo of the game.  All other salvos fire when the timer elapses from the previous.

Still. I think that aesthetically it would be nice to see the secondary guns (that are otherwise unoccupied?) turn to the designated target even if it's out of range, then commence firing immediately it enters range.  This should make no practical difference to the function of the secondary batteries/aura so would be low priority — a nice to have.

 

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That's a great idea  , so we know of the reload issue but doesnt the not targeting compound the time aswell, or does by the time they turn they are loaded by then

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6 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

So fix the loading mechanic. You don't start a firefight by slotting in the magazine and racking the bolt. Your gun should already be loaded and ready. The magazine slotting and racking should've been done when the battle timer started, just like with main battery guns and torpedo launchers. They load and then remain loaded until needed, and when no longer in use, load and standby.

While that makes conceptual sense, in terms of the game mechanics, it make no practical difference. 

 

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7 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

While that makes conceptual sense, in terms of the game mechanics, it make no practical difference. 

It actually does, guns starting out unloaded means they only start loading when they confirm a target, which means a 3-10 second delay before they start shooting, wherein the target can do basically whatever it wants. And here's the kicker: Secondaries aren't alone in this. AA also starts out unloaded, and only begin "loading" when a target enters their range. This is, for example, how airplanes can get through your long range AA without taking any damage. Because the AA gun hasn't completed its load cycle before the planes got into the medium range ring.

 

It makes no practical difference? Because when you know what it affects, I'd say it makes a pretty big difference.

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1 hour ago, Femennenly said:

Heyo Captains,

As part of our NA Community Stream last Friday, we actually asked @Sub_Octavian about this delay with 2ndaries and AA, 

You can find his response here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/435911521?t=01h25m10s

It actually has to do with how the loading mechanics.

Fem, 

I'm sorry, Fem, but Sub_Oct's answer is contradictory.  He says that nothing is delaying the guns from firing but then says that when a target is detected in range, the sec's turn and then fire.  Well, OBVIOUSLY, the time required for the secondaries to turn IS A DELAY!!!  The secondaries should already be on target BEFORE you get into secondary gun range.   Or perhaps use @TheDreadnought suggestion that if you manually select a secondary target, the sec guns will turn to aim at that target whether it's in range or not.  Actually, not a bad suggestion, as it increases the value of manually selecting a target ahead of time.

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11 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It actually does, guns starting out unloaded means they only start loading when they confirm a target, which means a 3-10 second delay before they start shooting, wherein the target can do basically whatever it wants. And here's the kicker: Secondaries aren't alone in this. AA also starts out unloaded, and only begin "loading" when a target enters their range. This is, for example, how airplanes can get through your long range AA without taking any damage. Because the AA gun hasn't completed its load cycle before the planes got into the medium range ring.

 

It makes no practical difference? Because when you know what it affects, I'd say it makes a pretty big difference.

Indeed.  Secondaries and AA guns should be loaded at the start of the battle and remain loaded throughout the battle, though obviously needing to be reloaded after each firing.

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If you insist on remaining in the conceptual realm, then concept this:  The first shot at a target never hits.  For area effects like flak bursts, that effect might not be so bad, but guns shooting shells always require some correction.

WoWS is simplifying the targeting to a single algorithm.  I'm okay with that.  Would I like to see the change you suggest?  Yes, I would.  But if it doesn't happen, I'm okay with that, too.

 

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How do you manually direct secondaries when you have manual fire control. Not having any luck with search. Found it.

Edited by brogun

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