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Ossiuum

What can be done about the endgame?

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Probably the area following 8.0 that I believe has suffered the most is the endgame interactions between surface ships in carriers. In most cases, any CV player worth his salt can continue to roll full squadrons out for the entire game, making them effectively as powerful as the first portion. Surface ships by the end of the game often have most of their AA stripped off and even less of a way to defend themselves than they otherwise would. Additionally, in the endgame surface ships are likely to be alone as there aren't many allies left, which lets the carriers run rampant and just see who can kill the other team first. This might be fun for the carrier, but it isn't fun to be the bot in the CV players mini game. Thoughts on improving the endgame quality? 

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Take the carriers off map and when the last combat surface ship dies games over?

 Then we're not wasting precious combat  Surface units space, And we all know carriers don't need to be on the map anyways.

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20 minutes ago, Ossiuum said:

Probably the area following 8.0 that I believe has suffered the most is the endgame interactions between surface ships in carriers. In most cases, any CV player worth his salt can continue to roll full squadrons out for the entire game, making them effectively as powerful as the first portion. Surface ships by the end of the game often have most of their AA stripped off and even less of a way to defend themselves than they otherwise would. Additionally, in the endgame surface ships are likely to be alone as there aren't many allies left, which lets the carriers run rampant and just see who can kill the other team first. This might be fun for the carrier, but it isn't fun to be the bot in the CV players mini game. Thoughts on improving the endgame quality? 

give the CVs limited quantity of aircraft again as actual real carriers do? I get that CV players complained about get de-planed before, but that was realistic as it taught players to pick their attacks more carefully. I personally think that de-planing should be a thing again.

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19 minutes ago, Panic512 said:

give the CVs limited quantity of aircraft again as actual real carriers do? I get that CV players complained about get de-planed before, but that was realistic as it taught players to pick their attacks more carefully. I personally think that de-planing should be a thing again

Which will not change anything since the post rework CV have a similar number of plane in total than the pre rework one? The only difference is the fighter consumable that is, in any way, quite lame and do not help them that much.

 

 

Add subs as some anti-camping mechanics, forcing CV to stay on the move and be easier target.

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It may seem unfair, But it is realistic. So IMO I think they need to stay the same. BTW, I am not a CV supporter but I do like realism.

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I like the new end game as a CV. 

I take the time to help the remaining surface ships ponder on their foolishness of paying real life money to be fodder, farm, exp pinata, target practice, out skilled.

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6 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Which will not change anything since the post rework CV have a similar number of plane in total than the pre rework one? The only difference is the fighter consumable that is, in any way, quite lame and do not help them that much.

 

 

Add subs as some anti-camping mechanics, forcing CV to stay on the move and be easier target.

Actually it would change significantly. Right now planes are recharged after the squadron is used or shot down, which would be the same, but the overall number in reserve to fill up that shot-up, or completely lost squadron would be finite and not unlimited like it is now.

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1 hour ago, Ossiuum said:

Probably the area following 8.0 that I believe has suffered the most is the endgame interactions between surface ships in carriers. In most cases, any CV player worth his salt can continue to roll full squadrons out for the entire game, making them effectively as powerful as the first portion. Surface ships by the end of the game often have most of their AA stripped off and even less of a way to defend themselves than they otherwise would. Additionally, in the endgame surface ships are likely to be alone as there aren't many allies left, which lets the carriers run rampant and just see who can kill the other team first. This might be fun for the carrier, but it isn't fun to be the bot in the CV players mini game. Thoughts on improving the endgame quality? 

Don't find yourself in endgame situations?  Get your battles won earlier and more decisively?

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1 minute ago, Panic512 said:

Actually it would change significantly. Right now planes are recharged after the squadron is used or shot down, which would be the same, but the overall number in reserve to fill up that shot-up, or completely lost squadron would be finite and not unlimited like it is now.

And still, you kinda missed the point. CV start with a quite small load out of plane than before, and the number of plane regenerating (which is a finite number since you have a time limit) make it so that a post rework CV have around the same number of potential plane that a pre-rework one started in its hangar. A midway started with  136 planes pre rework. Post rework she starts with 52 planes, and can regenerate around 46 for a total of controlled plane of roughly 98.

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18 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

It may seem unfair, But it is realistic. So IMO I think they need to stay the same. BTW, I am not a CV supporter but I do like realism.

Every plane that is shot down should effect the CV's combat capability. Every pilot did not have the same skill level, The more planes you lose, you should lose those pilots as well. After losing 10, 20, 30... planes the cv's combat effectiveness should suffer the same sort of losses. Sending up your 80th best pilot should not do the same damage as your first or best pilot.

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1 minute ago, Sweetsie said:

Every plane that is shot down should effect the CV's combat capability. Every pilot did not have the same skill level, The more planes you lose, you should lose those pilots as well. After losing 10, 20, 30... planes the cv's combat effectiveness should suffer the same sort of losses. Sending up your 80th best pilot should not do the same damage as your first or best pilot.

That's... kinda interesting. And even so, it could be on both way: plane could start with a high dispersion but with each successful hit, that plane dispersion could go down. Some kind of ''exp'' system in game for plane, making it more harsh to lose your plane while making it important to land hit (and making the sling shot tactics less good for players).

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1 hour ago, Ossiuum said:

Probably the area following 8.0 that I believe has suffered the most is the endgame interactions between surface ships in carriers. In most cases, any CV player worth his salt can continue to roll full squadrons out for the entire game, making them effectively as powerful as the first portion. Surface ships by the end of the game often have most of their AA stripped off and even less of a way to defend themselves than they otherwise would. Additionally, in the endgame surface ships are likely to be alone as there aren't many allies left, which lets the carriers run rampant and just see who can kill the other team first. This might be fun for the carrier, but it isn't fun to be the bot in the CV players mini game. Thoughts on improving the endgame quality? 

I see this as a simple solution: give Carriers a hard counter so that they can't sit back and have "full squadrons" at endgame....

The answers are:  DD Picket and Flak CL's armed with an AA Radar consumable.  This way, the IJN Akizuki line, the Fletcher's et al. and their up tiered cousins can choose to be "picket ships" that can:

provide the fleet an Air defense zone by using their AA radar(s): which is the same as ship radar except goes further and last just a tinge longer;

allows all ships "in the active zone" an AA dmg increase of 15%,: because the AA Radar provides detail information of the incoming planes;

allows non-carrier launched fighters to attack incoming fighters by vectoring, aiming them at incoming squadrons; and,

allows Picket and Flak ships to aim at multiple squadrons at one time.

We giveback damage potential to the Carriers and they keep regen.   Then, let's see whom survives to the end of the game.........which, is almost guaranteed for carrier's now !

This allows SAG's to have ships the "hunt" planes and forces the Carrier CPT to seriously have to think about when and how they use planes.........  And, this balances game play at both ends of the game.....

Imagine an Akizuki team on a flank that "pings" the planes a carrier launches to "find the carrier" and destroy it early game....  And, if the carrier chooses to engage two picket/flak ships.........well, that isn't going to be pretty for the planes....  Balance is all about not giving one side a clear advantage.......... 

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i already have seen the movie.

what could be done is to give thanos a better writing instead of a typical "i will destroy the universe because you are all meanies".

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12 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

I see this as a simple solution: give Carriers a hard counter so that they can't sit back and have "full squadrons" at endgame....

The answers are:  DD Picket and Flak CL's armed with an AA Radar consumable.  This way, the IJN Akizuki line, the Fletcher's et al. and their up tiered cousins can choose to be "picket ships" that can:

provide the fleet an Air defense zone by using their AA radar(s): which is the same as ship radar except goes further and last just a tinge longer;

allows all ships "in the active zone" an AA dmg increase of 15%,: because the AA Radar provides detail information of the incoming planes;

allows non-carrier launched fighters to attack incoming fighters by vectoring, aiming them at incoming squadrons; and,

allows Picket and Flak ships to aim at multiple squadrons at one time.

We giveback damage potential to the Carriers and they keep regen.   Then, let's see whom survives to the end of the game.........which, is almost guaranteed for carrier's now !

This allows SAG's to have ships the "hunt" planes and forces the Carrier CPT to seriously have to think about when and how they use planes.........  And, this balances game play at both ends of the game.....

Imagine an Akizuki team on a flank that "pings" the planes a carrier launches to "find the carrier" and destroy it early game....  And, if the carrier chooses to engage two picket/flak ships.........well, that isn't going to be pretty for the planes....  Balance is all about not giving one side a clear advantage.......... 

Going with no on anything encouraging DDs going on a snipe hunt.  

They just need to get rid of the sling shot drop.  CVs can’t be locked out of hitting targets once, their alpha just isn’t much in most cases.  AA should be good enough on clustered ships that the CV can’t hit twice with the same a squad because they would lose everything.  Understand that a CV is wasting their time just flying and striking once.  Targets DCP, repair etc.  That damage isn’t really effective damage.  It’s in line with the number of times a same tier BB shoots you over the time it takes to fly out and strike.

That still leaves targets that wander solo or camp an island for the CV to prioritize for multi attacks with a single squad.  They net more damage this way by losing less time in transit.

Too many of you guys think that because you cluster up with half the team you should be immune to CVs.  Why should death balling ruin one ship type when every other type can shoot at those ships and deal some damage?

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There is no endgame fix. You simply cannot play two separate games on the same plane and have it work. 

One game provides perpetual spotting, constant damage abilty, zero risk and over powering AA defense.  Starts strong and gets stronger.

The other game suffers from perpetual spotting,  exposed to constant risk, limited to little or no life or health generation, depleted resources in the form of broken guns and aa modules. Starts strong and gets weaker.

How to overlay these two games is proving to be impossible. 

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2 hours ago, Ossiuum said:

Probably the area following 8.0 that I believe has suffered the most is the endgame interactions between surface ships in carriers. In most cases, any CV player worth his salt can continue to roll full squadrons out for the entire game, making them effectively as powerful as the first portion. Surface ships by the end of the game often have most of their AA stripped off and even less of a way to defend themselves than they otherwise would. Additionally, in the endgame surface ships are likely to be alone as there aren't many allies left, which lets the carriers run rampant and just see who can kill the other team first. This might be fun for the carrier, but it isn't fun to be the bot in the CV players mini game. Thoughts on improving the endgame quality? 

The problem you clearly illustrate here tells you EXACTLY what needs to happen, but continues to elude people, is to attack and KILL the enemy CV early. I am so [edited]tired of people crying and moaning about CV's yet never seem to realize how to deal with them....You go kill them...First priority number 1#. The second BIG part of this issue is the "Allied" CV is the ONLY way this can be accomplished. If the allied CV will not go and keep the enemy CV lit your all doomed to whatever fate awaits you by the roll of the dice. The allied CV must keep the enemy CV spotted this is critical....a focused enemy CV that is kept spotted for the first half of the game will die if the allied BB's will keep it focused and not allowed to escape. Once the enemy CV has had its AA softened by artillery the allied CV should be able to begin to finish it off with attack places. If in the first 3 minutes of a match I can almost delete a CV with spotter planes alone if a concerted effort is made an enemy CV can be neutered somewhat. If the enemy captain is having to maneuver for its life it is not piloting planes either so this is twofold in what it accomplishes.

Believe...your really have no other options at the moment.

 

 

Edited by C_D
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1 hour ago, Sweetsie said:

Every plane that is shot down should effect the CV's combat capability. Every pilot did not have the same skill level, The more planes you lose, you should lose those pilots as well. After losing 10, 20, 30... planes the cv's combat effectiveness should suffer the same sort of losses. Sending up your 80th best pilot should not do the same damage as your first or best pilot.

I was not speaking of planes. I agree with you on planes. I was refering to the CV having no battle damage. I must have not made myself clear. Sorry

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20 minutes ago, C_D said:

The problem you clearly illustrate here tells you EXACTLY what needs to happen, but continues to elude people, is to attack and KILL the enemy CV early. I am so [edited]tired of people crying and moaning about CV's yet never seem to realize how to deal with them....You go kill them...First priority number 1#. The second BIG part of this issue is the "Allied" CV is the ONLY way this can be accomplished. If the allied CV will not go and keep the enemy CV lit your all doomed to whatever fate awaits you by the roll of the dice. The allied CV must keep the enemy CV spotted this is critical....a focused enemy CV that is kept spotted for the first half of the game will die if the allied BB's will keep it focused and not allowed to escape. Once the enemy CV has had its AA softened by artillery the allied CV should be able to begin to finish it off with attack places. If in the first 3 minutes of a match I can almost delete a CV with spotter planes alone if a concerted effort is made an enemy CV can be neutered somewhat. If the enemy captain is having to maneuver for its life it is not piloting planes either so this is twofold in what it accomplishes.

Believe...your really have no other options at the moment.

 

 

I agree 100 percent. Before the terrible CV updates started,,the CV was targeted early and often at the START of the game it should be now.

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1 hour ago, C_D said:

The problem you clearly illustrate here tells you EXACTLY what needs to happen, but continues to elude people, is to attack and KILL the enemy CV early. I am so [edited]tired of people crying and moaning about CV's yet never seem to realize how to deal with them....You go kill them...First priority number 1#. The second BIG part of this issue is the "Allied" CV is the ONLY way this can be accomplished. If the allied CV will not go and keep the enemy CV lit your all doomed to whatever fate awaits you by the roll of the dice. The allied CV must keep the enemy CV spotted this is critical....a focused enemy CV that is kept spotted for the first half of the game will die if the allied BB's will keep it focused and not allowed to escape. Once the enemy CV has had its AA softened by artillery the allied CV should be able to begin to finish it off with attack places. If in the first 3 minutes of a match I can almost delete a CV with spotter planes alone if a concerted effort is made an enemy CV can be neutered somewhat. If the enemy captain is having to maneuver for its life it is not piloting planes either so this is twofold in what it accomplishes.

Believe...your really have no other options at the moment.

 

 

Exactly this. Especially in ranked where some of the maps are smaller, it's not that hard to simply remove the CV with one or two BB salvos once he is spotted. In random battles I think carriers at T10 shouldn't be able to throw away planes as easily as they do. A good CV player will never get deplaned even striking constantly into heavy AA. 

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4 hours ago, Ossiuum said:

Probably the area following 8.0 that I believe has suffered the most is the endgame interactions between surface ships in carriers. In most cases, any CV player worth his salt can continue to roll full squadrons out for the entire game, making them effectively as powerful as the first portion. Surface ships by the end of the game often have most of their AA stripped off and even less of a way to defend themselves than they otherwise would. Additionally, in the endgame surface ships are likely to be alone as there aren't many allies left, which lets the carriers run rampant and just see who can kill the other team first. This might be fun for the carrier, but it isn't fun to be the bot in the CV players mini game. Thoughts on improving the endgame quality? 

Limit their total amount of fuel for aircraft … after 10 mins, planes hit the water or ditch on launch 

Edited by Commander_367
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3 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

And still, you kinda missed the point. CV start with a quite small load out of plane than before, and the number of plane regenerating (which is a finite number since you have a time limit) make it so that a post rework CV have around the same number of potential plane that a pre-rework one started in its hangar. A midway started with  136 planes pre rework. Post rework she starts with 52 planes, and can regenerate around 46 for a total of controlled plane of roughly 98.

So if the match lasted longer then CV could be deplaned? If it's a time constraint maybe the match longer then surface ships can destroy planes and deplane CV.

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2 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Going with no on anything encouraging DDs going on a snipe hunt.  

They just need to get rid of the sling shot drop.  CVs can’t be locked out of hitting targets once, their alpha just isn’t much in most cases.  AA should be good enough on clustered ships that the CV can’t hit twice with the same a squad because they would lose everything.  Understand that a CV is wasting their time just flying and striking once.  Targets DCP, repair etc.  That damage isn’t really effective damage.  It’s in line with the number of times a same tier BB shoots you over the time it takes to fly out and strike.

That still leaves targets that wander solo or camp an island for the CV to prioritize for multi attacks with a single squad.  They net more damage this way by losing less time in transit.

Too many of you guys think that because you cluster up with half the team you should be immune to CVs.  Why should death balling ruin one ship type when every other type can shoot at those ships and deal some damage?

Although I understand your reply, I respectfully disagree !

WoWs is at its heart, a First-Person-Shooter (FPS).  You know, games where I "aim" at you and my skill at aiming at you make me good/profitable or not..... I can not aim at planes....  And, it's not a team game at all: only clan battles are in fact team matches....  The "other 23" players influence what "I" do........and, that influence is supposed to be "balanced;"......without one ship type influencing what everyone else has to do just to survive

I should not have to "rely" on what you do just to survive.....let alone, to have a fun or have a profitable game.  I have a lot of DD's and they simply "can not defend themselves" against planes.....  Can't.  I have a dozen videos that show that a DD can't evade an air attack, can't survive endless rocket attacks, can't use smoke to evade planes and that doesn't take into consideration RADAR's, that are 100% effective; and, you can't out run planes........ 

Sorry, we disagree.  I don't not like the Carrier concept (terrible grammar I know)  and I'd like to see Carriers reigned in, in a balanced way and incorporated into matches in an equitable manner.......  Notice, I didn't say "fair"........ A Yamato at 25K can and has detonated Cruisers and the Cruiser CPT's were screaming bloody **** about "fair..."   And yet, ships shoot at ships and that, is what this game is about..........

Edited by Asym_KS
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57 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

Exactly this. Especially in ranked where some of the maps are smaller, it's not that hard to simply remove the CV with one or two BB salvos once he is spotted. In random battles I think carriers at T10 shouldn't be able to throw away planes as easily as they do. A good CV player will never get deplaned even striking constantly into heavy AA. 

I've played a little over a dozen Ranked matches and seen Carriers on the ship list and just about NEVER, has one been spotted in a place it can be shot at !   Those Island thingy's seem to get in the way.......  And, the carriers are usually, the last ships surviving the ranked battles I've played in this season......!

What you said sounds great and I agree !  Let's get our host to allow Carriers to attack Carriers early in the game to achieve air superiority BEFORE, they can attack ships......  And, if they can't, they are limited to how much they can attack ships....  Planes should be able to fight planes in the game play, actively; and, contribute to the teams air defense....not just their own.

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