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tm63au

Graf Zeppelin Rubbish Aerial Ordnance And No STUKAS

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I know this in not the first post on this matter and I guess it wont be the last but this is ridiculous, I played a game (Coop ) earlier today hit a Izumo with 3 aerial torpedoes in 1 strike got just under 10000 HP damage and yet I struck another ship with fighter Rockets and almost got the same amount of damage this is crap.

.shot-19_06.05_10_53.21-0889.thumb.jpg.53b457f450fabaa674c602007a8ed52c.jpg   

These so called LT F5B torpedoes mounted on the TA- 152C- 1/R14 strike planes with 4533 warhead are useless,

The DB variant is not much better, I say scrap this entire air group.

For Fighters give us FW 190

For TB planes how about  the FI 167 or Ar 195 or even FW 190 F -8 /U2 or U3 model

And Of course Last but not least The STUKAS for god sake.     

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3 minutes ago, tm63au said:

And Of course Last but not least The STUKAS for god sake.     

Every CV has crapAircraft choices. IDK why Wargaming did it the way they did, especially given that the stats for the planes, tier to tier, are made up (they never cruise at the same speed, their HP correlates to nothing in regards to airframe, even their ordinance is not accurate to what those aircraft were capable of carrying). They could have put Buffalos at T10 and it would be about as meaningful as putting Avengers at T4. So why they consistently chose the wrong planes for the wrong tiers is a mystery. Ranger doesn't carry Dauntlesses. What. The. [edited].

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[edited] the Stukas, the DBs for Graf Zeppelin just plain suck.  You can give it Stuka aircraft models for the DBs and it won't change how much the DBs will still suck.

 

Usually with CVs you can bank on 1 trash air unit with at least 2 decent ones, but GZ?  The TBs are the only good thing about her.  Her Attack Planes and Dive Bombers just suck.

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13 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

[edited] the Stukas, the DBs for Graf Zeppelin just plain suck.  You can give it Stuka aircraft models for the DBs and it won't change how much the DBs will still suck.

 

Usually with CVs you can bank on 1 trash air unit with at least 2 decent ones, but GZ?  The TBs are the only good thing about her.  Her Attack Planes and Dive Bombers just suck.

I wont argue with you there about the DB planes Stuka or otherwise sucking but at least if we are going to rubbish Dive bombers lets make them historical, I would rather have crappy STUKAS than the ones they have now.:Smile_honoring: 

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26 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Every CV has crapAircraft choices. IDK why Wargaming did it the way they did, especially given that the stats for the planes, tier to tier, are made up (they never cruise at the same speed, their HP correlates to nothing in regards to airframe, even their ordinance is not accurate to what those aircraft were capable of carrying). They could have put Buffalos at T10 and it would be about as meaningful as putting Avengers at T4. So why they consistently chose the wrong planes for the wrong tiers is a mystery. Ranger doesn't carry Dauntlesses. What. The. [edited].

Again I wont disagree with you also I had a look at Enterprise air group its just as bad.

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36 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

[edited] the Stukas, the DBs for Graf Zeppelin just plain suck.  You can give it Stuka aircraft models for the DBs and it won't change how much the DBs will still suck.

 

Usually with CVs you can bank on 1 trash air unit with at least 2 decent ones, but GZ?  The TBs are the only good thing about her.  Her Attack Planes and Dive Bombers just suck.

I like her rocket planes. Good for quickly tracking down a DD on the other side of the map.

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48 minutes ago, tm63au said:

lets make them historical

If you want historical you get no dive bombers, we fill the GZ with lumber, and it gets where it is going by way of 2 tugboats.  Be happy with your non-stuka DBs.

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54 minutes ago, tm63au said:

Again I wont disagree with you also I had a look at Enterprise air group its just as bad.

Enterprise's airgroup is actually very good. On paper they don't look like much but they all work well. They're very slow compared to GZ's but they hit harder and are easier to aim and the carrier itself is one of the least sensitive to aircraft losses. Plus she has a god-tier fighter consumable that stops even the T10s. She is easily my favorite CV to use, and that includes the T10s. 

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Dunno, but doing only coop I found GZ doing 25% less damage then Kaga or Saipan.

Maybe it's me

Regards

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1 hour ago, tm63au said:

I know this in not the first post on this matter and I guess it wont be the last but this is ridiculous, I played a game (Coop ) earlier today hit a Izumo with 3 aerial torpedoes in 1 strike got just under 10000 HP damage and yet I struck another ship with fighter Rockets and almost got the same amount of damage this is crap.

.shot-19_06.05_10_53.21-0889.thumb.jpg.53b457f450fabaa674c602007a8ed52c.jpg   

These so called LT F5B torpedoes mounted on the TA- 152C- 1/R14 strike planes with 4533 warhead are useless,

The DB variant is not much better, I say scrap this entire air group.

For Fighters give us FW 190

For TB planes how about  the FI 167 or Ar 195 or even FW 190 F -8 /U2 or U3 model

And Of course Last but not least The STUKAS for god sake.     

The Stuka idea died when they put GZ on T8. Stukas and Fieslers doesn't work on T8. Fieslers are biplanes. That's basically what you see on T4 HMS Hermes in the form of Fairey Swordfish and Albacores. Stukas are T6 planes at best. Neither of those planes could survive against the late-war and post-war AA that T8 carriers face. Imagine trying to fly a biplane through Worcester AA.

Honestly I would have preferred GZ as a T6 CV either with her complement of Me-109s as attack aircraft and either Ju-87s + Fi-167s, or just JU-87s doing both DB and TB roles, but they didn't want to do that. I suspect the choice of T8 was so they could sell it for more. I'm not placing judgment on that choice to make more money, but I am just stating it as a likely explanation of why. 

Edited by Tzarevitch
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On 6/5/2019 at 3:59 PM, Tzarevitch said:

The Stuka idea died when they put GZ on T8.

 

Errr no. The old GZ worked quite well with Ju87Cs and Bf109Ts.

There is no single good rationale behind this stupid plane swap.

Well you COULD argue that WG wanted faster planes to be her gimmick. But that idea really died with the speed nerf.

Now it is only rubbish left 

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On 6/5/2019 at 6:58 AM, Mikebello said:

Dunno, but doing only coop I found GZ doing 25% less damage then Kaga or Saipan.

Maybe it's me

Regards

GZ is highly reliant on her TBs, the same way Implacable relies on her TBs so much because their other two air units suck bad or are mediocre at best.  And when your GZ's TB reserves are running low or you're out, now you're in really deep sh*t.

 

Kaga has a complete arsenal of viable aircraft.

Same with Saipan, but she has Tier X Midway aircraft, but unlike Midway, has actually good torpedoes.

 

These are why you're doing better with Kaga & Saipan.

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On 6/5/2019 at 8:03 AM, tm63au said:

For TB planes how about  the FI 167 or Ar 195 or even FW 190 F -8 /U2 or U3 model

And Of course Last but not least The STUKAS for god sake.     

I'm sorry, I know it's what she was meant to carry historically, but... You want BIPLANES on a tier 8?!

Yeah, Haze has the right idea on the aircraft models. I'm not a fan of the "if it's going to suck at least make it historically accurate!" attitude, because what does that get you? A ship that sucks AND looks ridiculous while sucking.

As for the squadrons, they're an even more mixed bag than ever (post-rework anyway) and that's no good. I'm okay with the Me 155s, they're serviceable and fill an interesting niche but falter in just being too specialized because of their low speed. The Ta 152 TBs are the best part about the air wing on Graf Zeppelin, they're not the best TBs at tier 8, but they're solid and get the job done with the ability to do fairly constant damage thanks to their still very high (just not ridiculous) speed. The Ta 152 DBs are the same in the speed department, but that new attack run is just... WHY?! What possessed you to do this, devs? Who thought this was a good idea? How is it even supposed to WORK? They just make no sense at all!

Keep the planes, make the dive-bombers less wth-inducing, and you'll have a good carrier.

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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

These are why you're doing better with Kaga & Saipan.

Kaga also has those abyssally deep reserves and hits with 4 high-damage torpedoes per run, where Saipan has abnormally tough (for her tier) planes that get really high damage ordnance in exchange for shallower reserves and small flight sizes. Also her torpedoes weren't nerfed when the BTDs and Skyraiders on Midway got hit with the nerfbat, so Saipan uses tier 8 torpedoes instead of tier 4.

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40 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

GZ is highly reliant on her TBs, the same way Implacable relies on her TBs so much because their other two air units suck bad or are mediocre at best.  And when your GZ's TB reserves are running low or you're out, now you're in really deep sh*t.

Yup and even her TBers are laughably bad.

0 survivability, no speed to minimize time in AA bubble, slow as hell torps, and when they hit, it's like a pillow bouncing gently caresses the hull, with the lowest flooding chance of all airborne torpedos.

Every time I take this floater out for my daily bonus, I apologize to whatever team I'm playing with, then try to find a good ambush spot for her secondaries.

You'll often do more damage with them by a huge margin than you ever will with her aircraft "weapons"

Oh, and if you get uptiered....heh....may as well spot a bit then go afk because all you're doing at that point is feeding the red team flying points

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2 minutes ago, Razzist said:

Yup and even her TBers are laughably bad.

0 survivability, no speed to minimize time in AA bubble, slow as hell torps, and when they hit, it's like a pillow bouncing gently caresses the hull, with the lowest flooding chance of all airborne torpedos.

...

You do realize that, even with the boost changes, the Ta 152 is still quite literally THE FASTEST PLANE IN THE GAME, right?

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It just looks retarded as all hell having a purpose-built single-seat interceptor being used as a torpedo bomber. When they get around to making some fantasy Stalinium CV are they going to use MiG-3s for torpedo bombers?

Just for immersion's sake they should use something like the Me 410 for the GZ's torpedo bomber.

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48 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

...

You do realize that, even with the boost changes, the Ta 152 is still quite literally THE FASTEST PLANE IN THE GAME, right?

Being the fastest doesn't matter. If some other carrier was given faster planes, it wouldn't hurt the GZ.

What matters is being sufficiently fast to make up for the GZ's planes' very low durability and per-attack damage. It's all about spending a minimum amount of time in AA, and doing as many sorties as possible. Making the planes significantly slower, regardless of how they stand in relation to other planes, hits extremely hard due to the GZ leaning so heavily on speed for both offense and defense.

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52 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

You do realize that, even with the boost changes, the Ta 152 is still quite literally THE FASTEST PLANE IN THE GAME, right?

You do realize, that even if they're still the fastest, their HP pool doesn't compensate for the slower speed, as the HP wasn't raised to balance out the speed nerf, reducing overall survivability, right?

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18 minutes ago, Razzist said:

You do realize, that even if they're still the fastest, their HP pool doesn't compensate for the slower speed, as the HP wasn't raised to balance out the speed nerf, reducing overall survivability, right?

18 minutes ago, Frenotx said:

Being the fastest doesn't matter. If some other carrier was given faster planes, it wouldn't hurt the GZ.

What matters is being sufficiently fast to make up for the GZ's planes' very low durability and per-attack damage. It's all about spending a minimum amount of time in AA, and doing as many sorties as possible. Making the planes significantly slower, regardless of how they stand in relation to other planes, hits extremely hard due to the GZ leaning so heavily on speed for both offense and defense.

My point was that "fastest in the game" is NOT the same thing as "no speed". Yes, the speed boost nerf hit faster planes harder (so they gave GZ's bombers fighter boost to help make up for that), but that doesn't equate to 181 knots suddenly being considered agonizingly slow all of a sudden, they can still blitz through AA faster than any other plane. The way people are acting you'd think they nerfed cruising speed down to the same level as the Me 155. The hyperbole isn't necessary.

28 minutes ago, HQ_21 said:

It just looks retarded as all hell having a purpose-built single-seat interceptor being used as a torpedo bomber. When they get around to making some fantasy Stalinium CV are they going to use MiG-3s for torpedo bombers?

Just for immersion's sake they should use something like the Me 410 for the GZ's torpedo bomber.

Here, have a Fw 190 with a torpedo:

b0295d97819ef91aebf435a76151a350.jpg

The Ta 152C currently in-game is the ground attack version of the direct upgrade of this very plane, a new engine and nose to fit it plus a new tail for balance, they are otherwise identical airframes. I don't see why people are still so hung up on this.

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WG will buff her after months looking at data.

currently they will say that she is fine and it's your fault for not playing right.

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3 hours ago, Landsraad said:

My point was that "fastest in the game" is NOT the same thing as "no speed". Yes, the speed boost nerf hit faster planes harder (so they gave GZ's bombers fighter boost to help make up for that), but that doesn't equate to 181 knots suddenly being considered agonizingly slow all of a sudden, they can still blitz through AA faster than any other plane. The way people are acting you'd think they nerfed cruising speed down to the same level as the Me 155. The hyperbole isn't necessary.

Here, have a Fw 190 with a torpedo:

b0295d97819ef91aebf435a76151a350.jpg

The Ta 152C currently in-game is the ground attack version of the direct upgrade of this very plane, a new engine and nose to fit it plus a new tail for balance, they are otherwise identical airframes. I don't see why people are still so hung up on this.

agreed, the ta152(C) is an excellent airplane, t10 worthy if a German CV tech tree emerges/ The problem is not with the plane, but with the ordnance (crappy alpha on the torps, deliberate and sneaky overpen nerf for the AP bombs)/. And don't forget @tm63au, bringing back Stukas would also mean having to accept yet another nerf to squadron speed.

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12 hours ago, Landsraad said:

My point was that "fastest in the game" is NOT the same thing as "no speed". Yes, the speed boost nerf hit faster planes harder (so they gave GZ's bombers fighter boost to help make up for that), but that doesn't equate to 181 knots suddenly being considered agonizingly slow all of a sudden, they can still blitz through AA faster than any other plane. The way people are acting you'd think they nerfed cruising speed down to the same level as the Me 155. The hyperbole isn't necessary.

Here, have a Fw 190 with a torpedo:

b0295d97819ef91aebf435a76151a350.jpg

The Ta 152C currently in-game is the ground attack version of the direct upgrade of this very plane, a new engine and nose to fit it plus a new tail for balance, they are otherwise identical airframes. I don't see why people are still so hung up on this.

 

This Photo shows a plane for an experiment for a landbased torpedo bomber version of the 190. The plane wasn’t suited for carrier use much as it had quite high landing speed. The TA152 is a high altitude interceptor in its DNA. The only reason a bomber version was being developed is that the stupid little “Gefreite” wanted bombs on all planes and due to a lack of capable attackers.

 

Still the GZ should have Ju87C - they worked on the RTS version so stating it’s for balance is nonsense. All the ingame values are pulled out of blue air anyway.

 

12 hours ago, Cruxdei said:

WG will buff her after months looking at data.

currently they will say that she is fine and it's your fault for not playing right.

Well in this instance WG already admitted that the “buff” wasn’t a great job and they promised to buff/fix her quickly. Whatever that means 

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On 6/5/2019 at 8:03 AM, tm63au said:

I know this in not the first post on this matter and I guess it wont be the last but this is ridiculous, I played a game (Coop ) earlier today hit a Izumo with 3 aerial torpedoes in 1 strike got just under 10000 HP damage and yet I struck another ship with fighter Rockets and almost got the same amount of damage this is crap.

.shot-19_06.05_10_53.21-0889.thumb.jpg.53b457f450fabaa674c602007a8ed52c.jpg   

These so called LT F5B torpedoes mounted on the TA- 152C- 1/R14 strike planes with 4533 warhead are useless,

The DB variant is not much better, I say scrap this entire air group.

For Fighters give us FW 190

For TB planes how about  the FI 167 or Ar 195 or even FW 190 F -8 /U2 or U3 model

And Of course Last but not least The STUKAS for god sake.     

The Graf Zep Air Wing is pretty pathetic with damage output. The AP bomb "buff" is actually a nerf. The speed boost nerf made the planes even more fragile (and boring) and the 8.5 PTS AA buff that will probably go live will totally break this ship. I spent about $50 on this thing and I feel like I got played by WeeGee. The global nerf happened right after everyone made their purchases. Now it is hard to break the 50k damage mark even when you are top tier. 

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