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SuperCustodiam

Thoughts on Benham and Somers: The Super Mahan & US Shimakaze (Or US Cossack?)

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I'll get straight into to it: these two USN DDs are both up-tiered for their stats and builds. Somers is in it's 1937 base build but has 1945 Mk 17 torpedoes; Benham is in it's base 1939 build and that's somehow OK for these to to be tier X and IX respectively?

Somers has already been compared to the Shimakaze, a 1943 destroyer, due to Somers having 3x4 torpedo tubes, which combined with the power of the Gearing's Mk 17s, make her very comparable to Shimakaze. But I have to ask: why? Why give Somers Mk 17s in her base build when both the Somers and Porter class destroyer leader's both had a modification that would make WAY more sense for tier IX-X: 2x2 127mm/38 Mk 38s in A-Y and a single 127mm/38 Mk 30 in the X position, 2x2 1x4 40mm Bofors, and a handful of 20mms with 2x4 torpedo tubes.SomersPorter1944mod.thumb.jpg.ebc0aa35419854c44ce1a5c892745662.jpg

Essentially, the Somers class came in 3 modifications: As built in 1937 with 4x2 127mm/38 SP, 3x4 533mm, Mid-war weight saving measures with 3x2 127mm/38 SP, 2x4 533mm, 2x2 40mm, 20mms, and the late war mod mentioned above. There was also dedicated AA builds that completely eliminated the torpedo tubes all together, but that's not relevant.

What I think of the As built 1937 build of the Somers is it being like the HMS Cossack: they both have similar HP, firepower, maneuverability, and AA. The only difference would be the 2 extra quad torpedo tubes that the Somers has. I dunno what can be done about that, since Cossack has tier X torpedoes from the Daring, perhaps some Mk 15 mod 0s from stock Benson/Mahan? It just kind of makes more sense to me: a US version of the Cossack at tier VIII instead of this pseudo-Shimakaze we have it being in tier X. Let's not forget to mention her non-existent AA suite, her rather mediocre DPM without MBM3+BFT and AR making that 5 sec reload come down, and has the least HP for her tier, beat out by Grozovoi by 100 HP (with SE).

As for the Benham? Well, she has the 2nd fastest reloading torpedoes at her tier (Beat out by Tashkent's triple tubes), with the same range as Fletcher/Chung Mu's torpedoes at 10.5km, and middle of the road in terms of damage at ~15k damage per torpedo, all wrapped together with having 4x4 with 2x4 on each broadside, allowing her to ripple fire in-case her first set of 8 torpedoes don't kill her intended target.

Aaand that's all she has going for her: her DPM is worst in tier (~43,242, this compared to Yugumo's 44,698, Fletcher/CMs 54,054, and Z46s 44,550), she has the least HP for her tier with 1,000 HP less than Yugumo (both with SE), the worst AA for her tier with no mid-range aura and a very pitiful close range aura that does 65.2 dps (this compared to Yugumo's 188.4 and Z46's 99.2 DPS), and has a 5.94km max surface detection range with both CE & CSM1, which is the same as the much beefier Z46. So yeah, Benham has just a gimmick going for her that is keeping her at tier IX. If you ask me, she'd be fine at tier VIII with maybe some adjustments like less range or something. Her stats scream tier VIII, but otherwise she's a tier VIII Super Mahan that has been permanently stuck fighting at tier IX. Her torpedoes are nice n' all with the two sets of 2x4 torpedo tubes for 16 torps, but if she's ever caught in a gunfight, caught by a CV, or focus-fired at all, she really falls flat compared to other tier IX DDs that can win gunfights, can defend themselves from CVs, and or be able to trade HP and still have a lot left to spare. As it stands, Yugumo, Fletcher, and Chung Mu just do her job WAAAY better that getting the Benham doesn't seem worth it.

That's pretty much my opinion on these two upcoming USN DDs: Somers is currently a Tier X US Shimakaze that could be a wasted opportunity for a tier VIII US version of the Cossack, and Benham is a super Mahan stuck in tier IX matchmaking with fantastic torpedoes and not much else that allows her to compete with the other tier IX DDs. Their stats just don't seem to hold up to being tier IX and X, nor do they look the part when compared to the late-war and post-war DDs of tier IX-X.

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You talk as if torpedoes are meaningless and that their vulnerability to air attacks is an issue only they have.

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Somers right now is about as far away from mediocre as she could be.

Note, she is still WiP, things can change.

As she stands right now she combined a good amount of strong features, including torpedo reload, alpha per volley, torpedo concealment and range. Her gunpower may not be Harugumo-levels, but they don‘t have to be and in her current state should not be. On top of that she has the second best concealment of the T10 DDs, and excellent maneuverability with average speed.

I‘ve had good success with her, despite being no DD player and only using a 10 point captain (with BFT, one of my childhood sins when playing DDs).

shot-19.06.05_02.33.40-0511.jpg?width=75

Also if you ever wondered how much the torpedo range can do for you on a ship with 12 tubes, here‘s an impression on that:

0B37235D-A887-4F04-8520-38AF19DA9476.jpeg.1620243e0dcbd1f73666eb5be1d2b7be.jpeg

An unfortunate Kii, Yamato and Ibuki could not detect the torpedoes in time.

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I guess what I'm getting at is that both these ships don't look the part for tier IX & X but have the torpedoes to push them into tier IX & X. You can put really good torpedoes on any destroyer and they can be good at higher tiers.

The point I'm making is that Wargaming made these two destroyers into tier IX & X because they need to make new clan/ranked reward ships or new coal/steel/doubloons ship or something. I'm comparing the stats because I can look at them and be like "OK, her stats aren't very up to tier IX/X but her torpedoes are fantastic..." Like, to me, it looks like the ship's development process had them at a tier or two lower before somewhere it was decided to slap these really good torpedoes on both of these ships to allow them to compete at tier IX & X.

I'm just criticizing how these destroyers look like they've been elevated to higher tiers simply because they need to sell more high tier DDs or something, and I'm arguing that these are the wrong DDs, in their base 1937/1939 builds mind you, to be high tier destroyers when other ships like the Allen M. Sumners or the Late war modification of the Somers/Porter class destroyers would be better candidates because they would look the part and just make more sense when competing with late-war/post-war DDs of tier IX & X.

Sorry for the confusion: I'm not saying that the current Benham or Somers can't compete at tier IX/X, I'm saying that there are better USN DDs that existed that would make more sense for Tier IX/X without having to take these older DDs and forcing them to be a higher tier destroyer.

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Benham, im not sure what they could do, Somers however, could get the "Monaghan treatment" with 2 hulls, the first hull with her 8 guns, 12 torps and horrible AA, and the alternate hull which would be a AA refit, at the cost of a gun mount and torpedo tube

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On 6/5/2019 at 3:16 AM, SireneRacker said:

Somers right now is about as far away from mediocre as she could be.

Note, she is still WiP, things can change.

As she stands right now she combined a good amount of strong features, including torpedo reload, alpha per volley, torpedo concealment and range. Her gunpower may not be Harugumo-levels, but they don‘t have to be and in her current state should not be. On top of that she has the second best concealment of the T10 DDs, and excellent maneuverability with average speed.

I‘ve had good success with her, despite being no DD player and only using a 10 point captain (with BFT, one of my childhood sins when playing DDs).

shot-19.06.05_02.33.40-0511.jpg?width=75

Also if you ever wondered how much the torpedo range can do for you on a ship with 12 tubes, here‘s an impression on that:

0B37235D-A887-4F04-8520-38AF19DA9476.jpeg.1620243e0dcbd1f73666eb5be1d2b7be.jpeg

An unfortunate Kii, Yamato and Ibuki could not detect the torpedoes in time.

You should not compare her gun power to that of Haru. They are not on the same level. Somers has worse guns than Gearing, and she may not win against a shimakaze CQC

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18 minutes ago, Plaatduutsch said:

You should not compare her gun power to that of Haru. They are not on the same level. Somers has worse guns than Gearing, and she may not win against a shimakaze CQC 

And I didn't. I literally said that they are not on the same level.

And I also said that they shouldn't be. If they were, she'd be ridiculously overpowered.

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1 hour ago, SireneRacker said:

And I didn't. I literally said that they are not on the same level.

And I also said that they shouldn't be. If they were, she'd be ridiculously overpowered.

I understand what you are suggesting, but I still wonder why would you compare the best gunbote to the worst one at T10 

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7 hours ago, Plaatduutsch said:

I understand what you are suggesting, but I still wonder why would you compare the best gunbote to the worst one at T10 

I wouldn‘t say worst. She still beats Z-52 and Shimakaze in dps.

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14 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

I wouldn‘t say worst. She still beats Z-52 and Shimakaze in dps.

Look at the turret setup and ship length. You want to use all 4 you eat AP from Z-52. You want all 4 you eat torps from Shima, and if Shima kites, Somers got no chance in winning. 

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7 hours ago, Plaatduutsch said:

Look at the turret setup and ship length. You want to use all 4 you eat AP from Z-52. You want all 4 you eat torps from Shima, and if Shima kites, Somers got no chance in winning. 

You only eat AP pens from Z-52 if you maintain a certain angle. A quick calculation (128/6=21.333) and using at a simple tool like this will tell you that if you want to avoid the AP pens, do not stay at those certain angles but instead remain more broadside to have her overpenetrate. 

If you as a player can not tell when the Shima lauches torpedoes, because that is as obvious as it can be, and then proceed to eat them, then you deserved whatever comes at you. Btw, Somers has torpedoes as well, and they are in fact better than Shimakaze‘s.

 

You are trying to apply a very megative mindset on Somers. Bad, bad, must be bad. Next I see you talking about her AA probably.

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On 6/5/2019 at 2:42 AM, SuperCustodiam said:

Their stats just don't seem to hold up to being tier IX and X

That's not true. They're both really strong right now, and will probably receive nerfs.

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14 minutes ago, vak_ said:

That's not true. They're both really strong right now, and will probably receive nerfs.

I do agree.

As it is, Somers is a much more capable torpedoboat than Shimakaze even with only quad launchers, as it has faster reload, travels almost as fast, and has lower detection than Shima's 12km torps.

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On 6/9/2019 at 12:01 AM, SireneRacker said:

You only eat AP pens from Z-52 if you maintain a certain angle. A quick calculation (128/6=21.333) and using at a simple tool like this will tell you that if you want to avoid the AP pens, do not stay at those certain angles but instead remain more broadside to have her overpenetrate. 

If you as a player can not tell when the Shima lauches torpedoes, because that is as obvious as it can be, and then proceed to eat them, then you deserved whatever comes at you. Btw, Somers has torpedoes as well, and they are in fact better than Shimakaze‘s.

 

You are trying to apply a very megative mindset on Somers. Bad, bad, must be bad. Next I see you talking about her AA probably.

Do I even need to mention the AA? What AA? 

Still, to compare the gun power of Somers to Harugumo is a very interesting. :Smile_sceptic:

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