BIGGEST fix needed in this game... 3 tier matches need to go

[syp_twiz]

Seriously, ask anyone.. make a poll.. do something to find out this is true.. i ask in game constantly and the consensus on the lopsided high tier blowouts is the 3 tier system.. ships that are 2 tiers apart have no business in a round together. We honestly don't care if we have to wait and an extra 2-3 minutes to start a match.. it's better than starting a 3 tier match where you're dead in 3-4 mins, the enemy team has lost 1 ship and your entire team is dead. 

I'm being 100% serious here... tiers 1-5 should be one group, and tier 6-10 should be another.   NO MORE than 1 tier apart. 4-5 or 5-6, 6-7 etc. This would solve TONS of problems..  i was just in a match in a tier 6 lazo, and got hit by a tier 9 BB with 2 salvos and dead.. yes i was angled about 10 degrees to him.. It just doesn't matter, too much tier spread. all the higher tier matches are ALWAYS blowouts. i been sticking to co-op or playing tier 5 and under. 

Random above tier 5 is not fun for anyone. ask. 

[Ramsalot]

2 minutes ago, syp_twiz said:

i was just in a match in a tier 6 lazo, and got hit by a tier 9 BB with 2 salvos and dead..

Where did you get tier 6 Lazo?

On the more serious note, I have news for you: T10 light cruiser can easily die from two salvoes from T8 BB.  

Also the two tier disparity in this game is not nearly as bad as any of the other games with the tiered system.

[FrodoFraggin]

Probably not enough players, the queue times could be very long during non-prime time.

[Ramsalot]

6 minutes ago, syp_twiz said:

Random above tier 5 is not fun for anyone. ask.

Is that so?  Then how come these are the ships I personally play in random battles?

 

[Kami]

2 minutes ago, syp_twiz said:

Seriously, ask anyone.. make a poll.. do something to find out this is true.. i ask in game constantly and the consensus on the lopsided high tier blowouts is the 3 tier system.. ships that are 2 tiers apart have no business in a round together. We honestly don't care if we have to wait and an extra 2-3 minutes to start a match.. it's better than starting a 3 tier match where you're dead in 3-4 mins, the enemy team has lost 1 ship and your entire team is dead. 

I'm being 100% serious here... tiers 1-5 should be one group, and tier 6-10 should be another.   NO MORE than 1 tier apart. 4-5 or 5-6, 6-7 etc. This would solve TONS of problems..  i was just in a match in a tier 6 lazo, and got hit by a tier 9 BB with 2 salvos and dead.. yes i was angled about 10 degrees to him.. It just doesn't matter, too much tier spread. all the higher tier matches are ALWAYS blowouts. i been sticking to co-op or playing tier 5 and under. 

Random above tier 5 is not fun for anyone. ask. 

Hey syp_twiz,

First off the Lazo is a tier VII ship so you will see tier IX ships. The Lazo does not have the best armor and definitely will not stand up to a tier IX BB even angled. 

When you are bottom tier in a game (we have all been there) you cannot play the same way as if you were top tier. You have to learn to be more supportive of your teammates and put yourself in position to help your higher tier ships. This isn't always the most fun thing to do but it is a way to be successful. 

To the point of randoms not being fun above tier V, I would have to argue that is a personal observation. My suggestion to this is to learn the capabilities of the ships you are playing and then they will become more fun.

Tips:

• If you are bottom tier, support your higher tier ships. 
• Ships that have light armor like the Lazo you have to take advantage of islands, open water maneuvering and just plain ole paying attention to dodge as many shells as possible. You cannot tank BB shells in most cruisers and live very long.
• The Lazo has a special version of the spotter plane consumable if I am not mistaken, learn to use it to your advantage.
• Last and not least, learn from your mistakes, we all make em and they are all learning experiences. There are no perfect players at this game, doesn't matter if you have played since alpha or just starting up.

 

[syp_twiz]

i had a typo... Bottom line is, 2 tier spread max is what the game needs. IF they would do a poll, you'd see it. ask in game anytime, you'd be hard pressed to hear anyone disagree.  I'm just gonna stick to co-op and low tier for random. I sure as hell won't be spending any money on the game till it's fixed, waste of money at this point. 

 

[syp_twiz]

24 minutes ago, Kami said:

Hey syp_twiz,

First off the Lazo is a tier VII ship so you will see tier IX ships. The Lazo does not have the best armor and definitely will not stand up to a tier IX BB even angled. 

When you are bottom tier in a game (we have all been there) you cannot play the same way as if you were top tier. You have to learn to be more supportive of your teammates and put yourself in position to help your higher tier ships. This isn't always the most fun thing to do but it is a way to be successful. 

To the point of randoms not being fun above tier V, I would have to argue that is a personal observation. My suggestion to this is to learn the capabilities of the ships you are playing and then they will become more fun.

Tips:

• If you are bottom tier, support your higher tier ships. 
• Ships that have light armor like the Lazo you have to take advantage of islands, open water maneuvering and just plain ole paying attention to dodge as many shells as possible. You cannot tank BB shells in most cruisers and live very long.
• The Lazo has a special version of the spotter plane consumable if I am not mistaken, learn to use it to your advantage.
• Last and not least, learn from your mistakes, we all make em and they are all learning experiences. There are no perfect players at this game, doesn't matter if you have played since alpha or just starting up.

 

you are forgetting team play is only on ONE team at high tier.. that's why one team gets it's [edited]handed to them round after round. it's never close, it's almost 9 out of 10 matches a blowout. this is NOT good game play. you can play match after match at tier 4 and the games go down to the wire with 2-4 people left fighting.. it should be that way at EVERY tier. 

[SeaborneSumo]

No problem with the tiering of matches now.  Its a little rough for some T6's at times, but still fun.

[syp_twiz]

trust me, i understand everything in this game, i'm almost 50 years old. The fact of the matter is, you can't force your team to play the ships they selected the way they should be. If DD's won't cap, and Cruisers won't cap.. there's not a whole lot i can do if i'm in a BB.. i play for the objective we are given in any match.. the rest of the team, not so much, 

[RMC1138]

43 minutes ago, FrodoFraggin said:

Probably not enough players, the queue times could be very long during non-prime time.

It has nothing to do with that. WGing has several patents built around their MM that expressly require a degree of frustration around their MM so as to prompt sales of premium ships, premium time, consumables and flags/camos;

https://patents.google.com/patent/US8425330B1/en?inventor=Victor+Kislyi

https://patents.google.com/patent/US8870644B2/en?inventor=Victor+Kislyi

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9248372B2/en?inventor=Victor+Kislyi

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7169051B1/en?q=Ltd&assignee=Wargaming.net&oq=Wargaming.net+Ltd+

There are more out there, they, and in their defense, most companies do this with patents, have hidden them under seemingly unrelated individuals/holding companies.

The long and short of it is, they believe they need the +-2 (at least, +-3 would be preferable for them) to create ENOUGH situations where you bounce off of a higher ranked (tree or Premium) player's equipment, and eventually resort to one of the above ways to mitigate it.

And I'd like to emphasize, as a patent holder myself (several in my name, several more cosigned (owned) by my employer); they are EXPENSIVE to get and maintain: you do not patent a technology with no intention of using (this is dissimilar from a patent troll).

Additionally, and I say this from express experience with this matter, patents are very much icebergs in that whatever I patent is only a slight % of the technology I am utilizing; just the most obvious, and thus more readily copyable tech. So not only do they use the tech detailed in those (and other) patents, they likely have FURTHER developed past them.

[syp_twiz]

they need a BALANCED game.. hence all the CV nonsense they will rework it till the player base leaves. I won't even play my carriers except the tier 4's and i have them all except saipan. if you're a tier 8 carrier in a tier 10 match, you're a spotter and nothing more. 

[RMC1138]

3 minutes ago, syp_twiz said:

they need a BALANCED game..

No, they don't. The game is actually designed, fundamentally, to not be balanced. That is actually the driving force of the core premise. It's a tough balancing act in of itself, but it needs to be JUST slightly off balance so as to create a dialed in level of frustration and yes, Tier spread is a large part of that system.

A truly balanced game, like Quake for example, has to have a situation were ALL equipment is essentially, equally viable in essentially every situation, and it is PURELY the skill of the user that makes it more viable than another. WGing has opted for more RPS style which is skill-less. And fyi, if you are selling premium ships/weapons, you do not WANT skill to be a major player (it can have some role, but largely secondary) as it reduces the values proposition for purchase intent. And given this game is FTP, purchase intent is everything, and thus they NEED to make it imbalanced.

[LadyAnesjka]

43 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

Is that so?  Then how come these are the ships I personally play in random battles?

 

I am with the original poster on this issue. You are the exception not the normal.
Being in a tier 7 and going against a 9
Or 8 vs 10 is NOT FUN !

[syp_twiz]

apparrently they DO need to make it balanced, if it isn't much better in a month or two, i'll stop playing for a year again. The game is TOO Frustrating to play right now. no one wants to play DD's cause CV's. no one wants to play CV's, tier X AA is too much, it goes on and on and on.  If they made a mode called "random balanced" where you used stock ships and no captain skills, i'd play nothing but that.  The current model, it does NOT MATTER how good you are, you will get screwed to tears in high tier. I'm going to start recording my matches and throw it up on youtube to PROVE how crap this game has become. may start a "WG Sucks" channel so it's easy to find. 

 

[FrodoFraggin]

10 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

It has nothing to do with that. WGing has several patents built around their MM that expressly require a degree of frustration around their MM so as to prompt sales of premium ships, premium time, consumables and flags/camos;

Sure it does, bigger tier window, bigger number of players to draw from, faster team creation.

Patent stuff... whatever 

[HorrorRoach]

Waiting for someone dumb enough to disagree with @_RC1138

[RMC1138]

Just now, syp_twiz said:

apparrently they DO need to make it balanced, if it isn't much better in a month or two, i'll stop playing for a year again.

You're not their customer. You are not who they are trying to frustrate into buying ships. You're essentially a filler; a target/bystander to fill out the roster.

I don't feel that way, but that's how this kind of business model when applied views you.

 

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

16 minutes ago, syp_twiz said:

The fact of the matter is, you can't force your team to play the ships they selected the way they should be. If DD's won't cap, and Cruisers won't cap.. there's not a whole lot i can do if i'm in a BB

Then it's not the tier but the team which is the problem.

One of the reasons Nelson won at Trafalgar (and so often in other battles) is that every one of his captains was unicum. They got that way through bitter experience weeding out the weak. Nobody actually dies or is sacked in this game, so the weak keep on contributing their fail and derp. 

[CAPTMUDDXX]

@syp_twiz there is a dedicated forum section for polls. Seek it out and make your poll. +2/-2 tier spread is fine. Lower tier ships earn more XP for damaging higher tier ships and higher tier earns less for damaging lower tier.

If that's to much to deal with then stay mid and lower tier. Play scenarios to earn more. I stayed mid tier for a very long time. Long enough to bank well over 500 mil credits and almost 1 mil free xp playing tier 8 rarely to fill campaign objectives.

[RMC1138]

11 minutes ago, FrodoFraggin said:

Sure it does, bigger tier window, bigger number of players to draw from, faster team creation.

There is no mathematical justification and in fact, Ranked/CW/Team Battles(when they existed)/Alt modes (space battles)/CoOp/Operations prove how toothless that claim is. All of those alternatives never had any noticeable effect on queue times.

See you are assuming this is a fix system, and that by drawing instead of +-2, +-1, results in those outliers that were EITHER +2 OR -2 not being matched. The problem is that is not how combinations maths works; which is because most people try to apply statistics (probability) to a combination system (they are two different types of maths and cannot be inter-applied) or worse, have a degree of maths understand and thinks this is a *permutation* system when those two are antithetical to one another.

Treating this as a combinations system, there's actually a chance that for some tiers, queue times would *decrease*, not increase, as matches previously deemed 'unacceptable' for lacking +2 or -2 participants, instead are formed directly. For example, let's say you have 16 people in the queue for T6, 12 people in the Queue for T7, and 1 person for Tier 8. As it stands, the MM will not just form one of the possible T6/T7 matches, as it will want to force a T6 low match with a T8. So it will wait till at least one (likely 3) more T8's queue up to form a T6 low/T8 High match.

Think of it like a safe; does it take less time/fewer tries to solve a combination of *2* numbers, or 3? That's the flaw in the thought behind, "It'll increase queue times," that's not how combinations systems work.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

6 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

You are not who they are trying to frustrate into buying ships.

Anyone who buys a premium ship, or grinds to a higher tier tech-tree ship, thinking this will solve all their problems is on a fool's errand. 

[Kizarvexis]

1 hour ago, syp_twiz said:

Seriously, ask anyone.. make a poll.. do something to find out this is true.. i ask in game constantly and the consensus on the lopsided high tier blowouts is the 3 tier system.. ships that are 2 tiers apart have no business in a round together. We honestly don't care if we have to wait and an extra 2-3 minutes to start a match.. it's better than starting a 3 tier match where you're dead in 3-4 mins, the enemy team has lost 1 ship and your entire team is dead. 

I'm being 100% serious here... tiers 1-5 should be one group, and tier 6-10 should be another.   NO MORE than 1 tier apart. 4-5 or 5-6, 6-7 etc. This would solve TONS of problems..  i was just in a match in a tier 6 lazo, and got hit by a tier 9 BB with 2 salvos and dead.. yes i was angled about 10 degrees to him.. It just doesn't matter, too much tier spread. all the higher tier matches are ALWAYS blowouts. i been sticking to co-op or playing tier 5 and under. 

Random above tier 5 is not fun for anyone. ask. 

T1 only sees T1

T2 only sees T2 & T3, so is the tier with the worst MM. No one complains about this.

T3 only sees T2-T4 and only sees T4 CVs

T4 only sees T3-T5 and only sees T4 CVs

T5 only sees T4-T7 and only sees T4 & T6 CVs

T6 only sees T5-T8 and only sees T6 & T8 CVs

T7 only sees T5-T9 and only sees T6 & T8 CVs. This is the first true +2/-2 tier.

T8 only sees T6-T10 and only sees T6-T10 CVs. This is the last true +2/-2 tier.

T9 only sees T7-T10 and only sees T8 & T10 CVs.

T10 only sees T8-T10 and only sees T8 & T10 CVs. This is always top tier. 

 

44 minutes ago, syp_twiz said:

you are forgetting team play is only on ONE team at high tier.. that's why one team gets it's [edited]handed to them round after round. it's never close, it's almost 9 out of 10 matches a blowout. this is NOT good game play. you can play match after match at tier 4 and the games go down to the wire with 2-4 people left fighting.. it should be that way at EVERY tier. 

?? What do you mean that team play is only on ONE team at high tier? Are you talking about stacked teams?

 

28 minutes ago, LadyAnesjka said:

I am with the original poster on this issue. You are the exception not the normal.
Being in a tier 7 and going against a 9
Or 8 vs 10 is NOT FUN !

905 PvP

I enjoy T8 PvP battles.

[RMC1138]

1 minute ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Anyone who buys a premium ship, or grinds to a higher tier tech-tree ship, thinking this will solve all their problems is on a fool's errand. 

And yet this, and it's sister product WoTs are in the top 15 (10 for WoT's) most profitable MMO's around, despite barely breaking the top 25 (WoT's) and Top 50 (WoWs) most played MMO's. So, unfortunately, this methodology *works*.

[Skpstr]

1 hour ago, syp_twiz said:

Seriously, ask anyone.. make a poll.. do something to find out this is true.. i ask in game constantly and the consensus on the lopsided high tier blowouts is the 3 tier system..

And here I would have thought that skill disparity was the culprit. That gets blamed far more than tier difference.

I'm sorry, but I have to dispute your consensus.

1 hour ago, syp_twiz said:

We honestly don't care if we have to wait and an extra 2-3 minutes to start a match..

We honestly don't care that you don't care, we don't want to wait that long.

1 hour ago, syp_twiz said:

it's better than starting a 3 tier match where you're dead in 3-4 mins, the enemy team has lost 1 ship and your entire team is dead. 

Let's think about that for a second. If the problem was tier disparity, why would the enemy only have lost 1 ship while all yours are dead? Did the enemy have all the top tier ships, while your team had all the bottom tiers? I think not. Why then, did your top tiers not erase the enemy bottom tier ships?

I'll tell you why. It's because the other team was at least decent, and yours blew chunks. You could make it same-tier matches, and the result would be the same. If anything needs to be addressed, it's the skill disparity.

You should discuss this further with those who make up your "consensus", because it looks to me like people are getting blown up by higher-tier ships, and assuming that a same or lower tier ship driven by a better player couldn't do the same.

1 hour ago, syp_twiz said:

I'm being 100% serious here...

Me too, when I ask again, "why didn't your top tier ships blast their bottom tier ships out of the water? (it's an important question)

1 hour ago, syp_twiz said:

Random above tier 5 is not fun for anyone. 

Anyone that thinks differently than you, you mean. I'll bet if you started a poll, you would see how wrong you are.

[Kizarvexis]

Just now, _RC1138 said:

And yet this, and it's sister product WoTs are in the top 15 (10 for WoT's) most profitable MMO's around, despite barely breaking the top 25 (WoT's) and Top 50 (WoWs) most played MMO's. So, unfortunately, this methodology *works*.

Or people collect warships for the collection purpose and that skews some of your numbers.