Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
LittleWhiteMouse

Enterprise Slingshot Speed Values

22 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

27,848
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
9,931 posts
8,379 battles

So what is this?  Well, when dive bombers drop their ordnance, the remaining squadron appears to get a big ol' boost of speed after the fact.  It's no secret that some veteran players have been using this increase in speed (and the immunity that comes along with it) to help mitigate damage by flak.  I was asked to see if I could find the exact values of the speed and distances provided by this manoeuvre.  I used Enterprise's dive bombers to come up with these values.

Enterprise's dive bombers have the following speed stats:

  • 125 knot normal speed
  • 100 knot brake speed
  • 175 knot boosted speed

Note these values will (probably) change in future patches.

TL:DR:  Speed boost from the slingshot exists and the numbers are pretty substantial, if short lived. 

STUPIDLY BIG CAVEAT
The times quoted here were obtained using a stopwatch which adds a BIG margin of error to these calculations.  Multiple attempts were made to try and isolate this margin of error, but relying on human reflexes in combination of World of Warships' own UI to make these estimations just that -- estimations which could vary +/- by 0.3s.  Most of these were collected over a couple of hours (Enterprise attack times were collected previously), so the robustness of these values is understandably suspect.  Take them all with a big pinch of salt.

Let's go over the phases of a bomb drop without dropping ordnance first.

  1. Player begins their attack by clicking their left mouse button.  Enterprise's aircraft fly at 125 knots nominally.
  2. There is a setup phase as the planes gain altitude (and slow down).  Enterprise's 125 knot aircraft reduce to 105 knots during the climb.  In Enterprise's case, this setup time takes 2.5s.
  3. Planes can now initiate a drop.  Planes nose over and dive, briefly accelerating back up to 125 knots and then immediately reducing down to 110 knots through the steepest portion of the dive.  As the aircraft level off, they begin accelerating again but will only reach 123 knots by the end of their swoop.  Drop phase lasts up to 7 seconds.
  4. If ordnance is not dropped, attack flight zoom climbs to rejoin squadron.   Speed will max out at 126 knots at the tail end of the swoop before climb initiated. Speed drops to as low as 111 knots during the climb.  Rejoining the squadron takes 5 seconds.  At the end of this 5 seconds, aircraft are moving at 122 knots.
  5. The attack run is considered to have "ended" when ordnance can be dropped a second time.
  6. Total distance traveled using stationary Fuso bots as a reference is 3.3km +/- 100m.

Using the distance traveled as a measure we can calculate the average horizontal speed.  We also know the exact time thanks to the set values for the different phases, giving us a total attack time of 14.5 seconds.

EXAMPLE ONE (NO DROP)
[ Distance in meters / WoWS Distance Compression Ratio ] / [ Average Velocity ] = Time in seconds

[ 3,300m / 5.22 ] / [ Average Velocity ] = 14.5s
[ 3,300m / 5.22 ] /14.5s = [ Average Velocity ]
[ ~43.599 m/s ] = [
(Average Speed in knots) / (Conversion to meters per second) ]
~43.599 m/s * 1.943844= [ Average Speed in knots ]
~ 84.7 knots

Things get harder to measure when ordnance is dropped, opening up more margins of error.  To a player's perception, this is exacerbated by the camera movements.  When bombs are dropped, the camera stays behind to follow the ordnance before zooming up to rejoin the squadron.  The UI is of no help --  if you watch the speed of the aircraft, it doesn't appear to accelerate beyond the normal speed. 

  1. 125 knots before the run begins.
  2. Slowing down to 105 knots in the climb.
  3. Initiating the dive accelerates to 125 knots.  Steepest part of the dive is 110 knots with the base of the dive swooping up no faster than 123 knots.  This is where our bombs are released.
  4. As the camera rejoins the squadron, the airspeed indicator never exceeds 125 knots and actually shows the squadron slowly accelerating up from 120 knots.

This implies (to me) that once the bombs are dropped and the attack flight zooms away, the squadron itself is busy trying to accelerate up from the relatively slower speed of the attack pattern back up to normal cruising speed.  The drop is simply removing the waiting period of the squadron where the attack flight climbs (at speeds as low as 111 knots) for those 5 seconds.  Furthermore, as their flight is level rather than at a climb, this will cover more ground than on a diagonal while gaining altitude.  However, this is once again trusting the UI not to be fudging the numbers.  For all we know, the UI could be listing the speed of the climbing aircraft.

Now, the amount of time spent following the ordnance varies depending on bomb drop height.  I was using Enterprise for my tests and it took rough 0.8s from time of release for bombs to hit the water at the lowest altitude and around 3.5s for bombs to hit the water when releasing them from the highest altitude. 

This changes the attack run time form 14.5s to 15.3s roughly.  Thus our attack pattern is now:

  • 2.5 second setup time.
  • Slightly less than 7 seconds attack run time.
  • 0.8s bomb drop time.
  • 5 second recovery time

Once again, using stationary Fuso as a measure (with a +/- 100m margin of error due to the UI), we can calculate distance traveled once again by dropping bombs at the very last possible second.  For this low drop, the amount of distance traveled was approximately 5km.

EXAMPLE TWO:  LOW ALTITUDE DROP
[ Distance in meters / WoWS Distance Compression Ratio ] / [ Average Velocity ] = Time in seconds

[ 5,000m / 5.22 ] / [ Average Velocity ] = 15.3s
[ 5,000m / 5.22 ] /15.3s = [ Average Velocity ]
[ ~62.605 m/s ] = [
(Average Speed in knots) / (Conversion to meters per second) ]
~62.605 m/s * 1.943844= [ Average Speed in knots ]
~121.7knots

Given the speeds recorded, this average of 121.7 knots is 50% higher than when we don't drop ordnance.  This is concerning to me -- a 50% increase means that the squadron has to be moving pretty darned fast to account for that much of a gain. We can verify this by shortening the attack run time and getting rid of all of that swooping and diving nonsense by dropping our bombs immediately.

When ordnance is released immediately, the time between the start of the attack and recovery is approximately 11.0s.  Mathing it out, this gives us:

  • 2.5 second setup time (this is fixed)
  • ~0.0 seconds attack time (spam clicking LMB to drop bombs as soon as they are available)
  • 5 second recovery time (this is fixed)
  • ~3.5 seconds ordnance drop time.

Using our Fuso's as a distance measure, I get a value of roughly 4.5km traveled.  Math time:

EXAMPLE THREE:  HIGH ALTITUDE DROP
[ Distance in meters / WoWS Distance Compression Ratio ] / [ Average Velocity ] = Time in seconds

[ 4,500m / 5.22 ] / [ Average Velocity ] = 11s
[ 4,500m / 5.22 ] / 11s = [ Average Velocity ]
[ ~78.370 m/s ] = [
( Average Speed in knots) / (Conversion to meters per second) ]
~78.370 m/s * 1.943844= [ Average Speed in knots ]
~152.3 knots

Yeah, that's pretty conclusive that some form of artificial boost is occurring, especially given that we know that the aircraft are slowing through the setup time.  Now let's see if using the aircraft's own boost through the attack run changes these numbers.  For this, I'll be dropping ordnance immediately as per example three.  Enterprise's bombers move at 175 knots (for now) when boosted.  The amount of distance traveled was ~6.6km over 11s.  This distance value is even more uncertain given that the decimal for distance closure at these speeds was sometimes ticking over at 0.2km intervals instead of steadily at 0.1km.  So again, big heaping tablespoon of salt for the exact figures listed here.

EXAMPLE FOUR:  HIGH ALTITUDE DROP + BOOST
[ Distance in meters / WoWS Distance Compression Ratio ] / [ Average Velocity ] = Time in seconds

[ 6,600m / 5.22 ] / [ Average Velocity ] = 11s
[ 6,600m / 5.22 ] / 11s = [ Average Velocity ]
[ ~114.943 m/s ] = [
( Average Speed in knots) / (Conversion to meters per second) ]
~114.943 m/s * 1.943844= [ Average Speed in knots ]
~223.4 knots

So yeah, the boost exists.

  • Cool 22

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
348
[BS]
Members
1,375 posts
7,635 battles

Yeah, I've done this a little with Enterprise...I think i've mostly not boosted in the immunity period, or didn't boost/brake at all...It's kinda hard to gauge how close you'll end up to the ship at the end of the slingshot because of the ships direction, speed etc. I remember braking out of paranoia several times... what a waste it would be to overshoot the ship

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,044
[NG-NL]
Members
5,707 posts
9,439 battles

This actually is available on all carriers, and the same tactic I use w/ attacking empty ocean as the extra speed boost cuts travel time. Relief to see it's not an exploit, just a smart trick.

One of the best changes w/ the CV rework.

  • Bad 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,215 posts
5,446 battles
12 minutes ago, Reymu said:

This actually is available on all carriers, and the same tactic I use w/ attacking empty ocean as the extra speed boost cuts travel time. Relief to see it's not an exploit, just a smart trick.

One of the best changes w/ the CV rework.

Not an exploit in terms of "is it cheating"?  Clearly no.  It is a smart use of (poorly) thought out game mechanics.

But the idea of covering ~5-7km of distance with flak immunity as well as a large reduction in the amount of time inside the AA fire kind of eliminates the whole point of AA in the first place.  The whole rework has kind of made a mess of CV to surface ship interaction.  

  • Cool 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
727
[S0L0]
Alpha Tester
2,300 posts
3,249 battles

Interesting,  I can make SS work on a few occasions.. but honestly probably miss the drop as often as i hit it..For me  its usually pretty hard to gauge targets movement when you get to start range. You are starting so far away and when you get through to start targeting drop flak becomes such a vision issue.   The timing is really a whole lot harder than most think it is.    The only time I really feel it worth the loss of firepower and risk to miss is when I absolutely have nothing else to target but an AA cruiser(which means you'll probably lose whatever you dropped with on the way out)  or there is a low health ship I can take out that is protected by an AA blob.   Its going to become a much harder task after next patch as well for  HE DBs,  because targeting time is being shortened quite a bit?   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20
[SRM]
[SRM]
Members
65 posts

 giphy.gif    When do I get my anti slingshot gravity ray?  this [edited] makes that much sense sorry 

 

 

 

 

  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,975
[RLGN]
Members
10,041 posts
19,455 battles

This sounds light RTS Strafe in a way; mechanically simple, but something I could never really wrap my head around... :Smile_sceptic:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,090 posts
1,236 battles
53 minutes ago, RA6E_ said:

Interesting,  I can make SS work on a few occasions.. but honestly probably miss the drop as often as i hit it..For me  its usually pretty hard to gauge targets movement when you get to start range. You are starting so far away and when you get through to start targeting drop flak becomes such a vision issue.   The timing is really a whole lot harder than most think it is.    The only time I really feel it worth the loss of firepower and risk to miss is when I absolutely have nothing else to target but an AA cruiser(which means you'll probably lose whatever you dropped with on the way out)  or there is a low health ship I can take out that is protected by an AA blob.   Its going to become a much harder task after next patch as well for  HE DBs,  because targeting time is being shortened quite a bit?   

How good are you with the DBs?

You still have to estimate the attack location in the same way with the normal drop.

You just start the drop a certain distance from the ship (Ranger is 6km), boost...observe the ship, if it comes toward you, stop boosting. When the ability to drop returns...evaluate if you need to drop now or wait a half second or so while adjusting...start drop, adjust by using boost and mouse. Drop. Recall.

The point isnt to avoid ALL loss...its to get one drop in.

Yes, it's less accurate. Yes, sometimes you miss entirely. It's better than getting everything shot down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,885 posts
4,322 battles
2 hours ago, jr_token said:

 giphy.gif    When do I get my anti slingshot gravity ray?  this [edited] makes that much sense sorry 

 

 

 

 

Let's start a petition to have uss Eldridge added to the game with a functional cloaking device and Tesla death rays for AA and main batteries.

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
642
[WOLFC]
Members
978 posts
2,392 battles

When can i sling shot from island to island in my surface ship? Only fair. Oh and take no damage while doing it.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,044
[NG-NL]
Members
5,707 posts
9,439 battles
3 hours ago, Psicopro said:

Not an exploit in terms of "is it cheating"?  Clearly no.  It is a smart use of (poorly) thought out game mechanics.

But the idea of covering ~5-7km of distance with flak immunity as well as a large reduction in the amount of time inside the AA fire kind of eliminates the whole point of AA in the first place.  The whole rework has kind of made a mess of CV to surface ship interaction.  

Have to time your catapult fighter right so the immunity ends with them literally in your fighters' crosshairs.

But whatever. I'm not expecting everyone to be that thrilled about an intro to CV's timing and multitasking.

7 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

When can i sling shot from island to island in my surface ship? Only fair. Oh and take no damage while doing it.

Your MB and torp tubes got armor. CV planes don't.

But we oughta implement this. First team that nosedives into a randomly chosen island wins! :Smile_trollface:

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,215 posts
5,446 battles
 
 
 
4 hours ago, Reymu said:

Have to time your catapult fighter right so the immunity ends with them literally in your fighters' crosshairs.

But whatever. I'm not expecting everyone to be that thrilled about an intro to CV's timing and multitasking.

My comment was more about the total absurdity of making airplanes immune to flak as a game mechanic.  Having planes cover those distances and avoiding flak is why we invested in Jet technology, I don't recall slingshot bomb dropping as being effective in WWII however.  And the whole concept of a battleship throwing up 4 catapult fighters as a defense from a fleet carrier strike in place of effective anti-air flak.  Really, if that is the answer then I'm not asking the right questions.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,090 posts
1,236 battles

The whole thing stems from WGs insistence that carrier captains can have only one flight active, but use that same flight to make multiple attacks.

Go back to one attack with the whole flight and this absurd mechanic goes away.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,897 posts
78 battles
3 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

The whole thing stems from WGs insistence that carrier captains can have only one flight active, but use that same flight to make multiple attacks.

Go back to one attack with the whole flight and this absurd mechanic goes away.

Can you imagine the salt from CV whiners when an AP DB oneshots a cruiser from 100% HP to 0?
Can you imagine the salt from CV whiners when they get hit by 6 CV torps?
Can you imagine the salt from CV whiners when their DDs get obliterated from 100%HP to 0 by one rocket salvo?

Edited by RyuuohD_NA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,090 posts
1,236 battles
19 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

Can you imagine the salt from CV whiners when an AP DB oneshots a cruiser from 100% HP to 0?
Can you imagine the salt from CV whiners when they get hit by 6 CV torps?
Can you imagine the salt from CV whiners when their DDs get obliterated from 100%HP to 0 by one rocket salvo?

How would a cruiser get one shotted? Their AA would shoot down enough planes that the number of bombs dropped would be less than a full squadron.

6 Midway torpedo hits would be max 24k damage...but actually less than that from torpedo protection. Is that so terrible?

My original idea to Wargaming was to have the planes in the squadron attack in series, where the attack goes in 'at once', but each little group of the full flight attacks one after the other.

But WG said, nope. We want to split the attacks up fully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
223
[_AFW_]
[_AFW_]
Members
301 posts
6,119 battles

And the simple fix to all this is to just randomize the speed during immunity by -/+ 5% and change the flight path left or right by 2 degrees while your in attack mode. This way they can never know where the next attack node is starting so the exploit cannot be abused for attacking.  This  will not affect normal attack runs as your normally suppose to be past the ship after your run.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
389
[ODIN]
Members
1,314 posts
3,206 battles
4 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

The whole thing stems from WGs insistence that carrier captains can have only one flight active, but use that same flight to make multiple attacks.

Go back to one attack with the whole flight and this absurd mechanic goes away.

When someone slingshots, they're already significantly artificially cutting their squad size to a single attack flight. Instead of 9 Enterprise DBs coming in, only 3 are actually making an attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,090 posts
1,236 battles
5 hours ago, EasternSun said:

And the simple fix to all this is to just randomize the speed during immunity by -/+ 5% and change the flight path left or right by 2 degrees while your in attack mode. This way they can never know where the next attack node is starting so the exploit cannot be abused for attacking.  This  will not affect normal attack runs as your normally suppose to be past the ship after your run.

 

I can vary boost during the immunity.

2 degrees isnt enough to throw off the subsequent attack.

4 hours ago, Frenotx said:

When someone slingshots, they're already significantly artificially cutting their squad size to a single attack flight. Instead of 9 Enterprise DBs coming in, only 3 are actually making an attack.

Yes, my proposal is to let all 9 attack, but in series...not in parallel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,998
[CMFRT]
[CMFRT]
Members
4,795 posts
18 hours ago, Psicopro said:

Not an exploit in terms of "is it cheating"?  Clearly no.  It is a smart use of (poorly) thought out game mechanics.

But the idea of covering ~5-7km of distance with flak immunity as well as a large reduction in the amount of time inside the AA fire kind of eliminates the whole point of AA in the first place.  The whole rework has kind of made a mess of CV to surface ship interaction.  

Pretty much, but I'd call it an exploit without any hesitation.

In fact, I WOULD call it cheating, at least in terms of the spirit of things -- people who use this are deliberately using a known flaw in the mechanics to do something that would otherwise be impossible, without regard for the effect on other players. 

That WG refuses to call it a cheat or close the flaw in the mechanics, while fig-leafing it with talk of "tradeoffs", is just a demonstration of their long-term refusal to fix real problems while constantly mucking about with parts of the game that aren't broken to begin with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,215 posts
5,446 battles
7 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Pretty much, but I'd call it an exploit without any hesitation.

In fact, I WOULD call it cheating, at least in terms of the spirit of things -- people who use this are deliberately using a known flaw in the mechanics to do something that would otherwise be impossible, without regard for the effect on other players. 

That WG refuses to call it a cheat or close the flaw in the mechanics, while fig-leafing it with talk of "tradeoffs", is just a demonstration of their long-term refusal to fix real problems while constantly mucking about with parts of the game that aren't broken to begin with. 

I am of the opinion that anything possible within the game without external programs or hacking is fair game.  The mechanics are stupid and unbalanced in my opinion, but since it can be done within the native client without any sort of questionable tinkering doesn't make it cheating.  Not the fault of the skilled player that the game allows such things to be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×