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Plaatduutsch

Thoughts on Somers (Upcoming USN Tier X DD)

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Many people are going to get excited when they first saw this ship and calling it OP.

I then look at the stats and then realized that this ship might not be as strong as you would expect.

In terms of DPM: The guns are mediocre, the torpedo is great. 

First, people are going to get excited when they see the 8 guns, but do not get fooled: Gearing actually has 25% more DPM with 6 guns. This is the same deal as the Cossack at tier 8: People see 8 guns and get excited, but they don't realize that the Cossack 8-guns are actually no better than the 5-gun Kidd. 

The torp is good. You get faster reload and two more torps than Gearing. The gearing would have 34% less torpedo DPM if using the same Mark 17 Torps ( though personally I prefer the Fletcher torps) If the Gearing is using Mk 16 Torps, the torp DPM is basically the same

In terms of survivability, it is BAD.

20800hp max, compared to Gearing 22900, shima 21400, z52 23800..Not to mention the ships with heals. 

No Gearing 21mm side plate neither. 

This is Tier 9 health pool

In terms of Handling. It is mediocre for USN DD.

Do not get fooled by the 38 kts speed: Gearing actually has 15% more horse power than this ship, which means that Gearing is likely to accelerate faster. Shima has 45% more horsepower as well...

The 3.9s 620m turning circle is good for a DD in general, but only acceptable for a USN DD. 

When we add them together, I think the handling we are looking it as a Kidd with slightly worse acceleration and slightly higher top speed. 

Theoretical DD vs DD flight. Questionable. 

We look at the gun layout first: it is ABXY, and the ship is long. This is a big disadvantage in DD flight.  I do not expect it to have good firing angle. Which makes her vulnerable in CQC with other DDs. You want to fire all 8, you are more likely to eat torps.

VS  Gearing, Gearing will win mostly

VS Shima, Shima will not lose if she chooses to kite.

VS Z52, Z52 will win mostly, because she either cannot fire all her gun or eat Z52 AP shells

VS Daring, Daring would win mostly.

VS Groz. Groz is more likely to win.

VS Harugomo. Harugomo will eat it alive, but she may get the Harugomo with torps after she sunk. 

Khab is light cruiser in DD class, and Yueyang is just a worse Gearing. 

AA: What AA? It is a pre- WW II ship.

My conclusion:

You should not compare it to Gearing or most other USN DDs. 

It is a Shima with better torps but worse survival. 

 

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The AA will be rough too but I bet it will still have decent gun angles. Unlike Cossack I highly doubt it will have to show broadside to use all four turrets. As for acceleration, RN DDs have less horsepower than those two and yet accelerates faster than them. As said above, i'll wait for a video. 

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So... It's a USN Shimakaze. Yeah, that sounds about right. I'm puzzled by the sudden influx of torp-boats into testing and release though. First we get Neutrashimy (not that odd when you remember that her torp-focus is negated by Soviet-ness), then Somers and Benham (8 torps PER SIDE!). Something bigger is going on here.

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53 minutes ago, Plaatduutsch said:

My conclusion:

You should not compare it to Gearing or most other USN DDs. 

It is a Shima with better torps but worse survival. 

 

Pretty much.

The Gearing really is not much of a gunboat anymore, only beating the Shima, but it is a great torpedo boat, only losing to the Shima, and it looks like Somers doubles down on that.

The torps may not hit as hard as the IJN ones, but because they are quadruple mounts instead of quintuple, the reload should be better. Probably closer to the Z-52 reload time, with better warheads.

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31 minutes ago, Yoshiblue said:

The AA will be rough too but I bet it will still have decent gun angles. Unlike Cossack I highly doubt it will have to show broadside to use all four turrets. As for acceleration, RN DDs have less horsepower than those two and yet accelerates faster than them. As said above, i'll wait for a video. 

Brit DDs and CLs have acceleration module built-in. 

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Except the game is RNG based and 8 chances to hit is better than 6. 

Georgia proves that...

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Quantity has a quality of its own and alpha plays it's role. Quite a few people are reluctant to push battles with ships like Cossack because of the high alpha capability, I can see the same happening. The firing angles will further decide this.

As for the torpedoes and the platform in general I still think Benham will be the better torpedo boat.

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2 hours ago, Landsraad said:

So... It's a USN Shimakaze. Yeah, that sounds about right. I'm puzzled by the sudden influx of torp-boats into testing and release though. First we get Neutrashimy (not that odd when you remember that her torp-focus is negated by Soviet-ness), then Somers and Benham (8 torps PER SIDE!). Something bigger is going on here.

Not really. Think about it, the run on gunships has slowly built up and therefore so have the mechanics to counter the gunship DDs. All DD players have built their meta on the current balance.

Now CVs have entered the fray using the guns to highlight your location suffers an additional penalty of catching the attention of the CV - which will incur additional fire from other ships...…..enter the switch....

WG: 'Hey DD drivers, with the new CV meta and knowing the number of players playing low tier CV will mean in future high tiers will have 2 CVs in it...how about giving yourself that extra chance of survival by switching back to torpedoes? The silent, hidden gameplay style'

DD Player: 'Hmmmm, yeah, everyone is now saying we need to hold back and be patient as contesting a cap (what I needed my gunboat for) is now suicide. But look, here is a DD that has good torps! I can still contribute to the team! Thank you WG!'

Reality: They will still be spotted, will still have no AA, will still be focused and will still die faster than any other ship type.

 

But WG will also have sold some ships (the old gimmick in one hand and reality in the other trick). Like a circle in a circle like a wheel within a wheel - nothing bigger, just the same old cycle. :Smile_honoring:

Edited by _WaveRider_
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9 hours ago, Landsraad said:

So... It's a USN Shimakaze. Yeah, that sounds about right. I'm puzzled by the sudden influx of torp-boats into testing and release though. First we get Neutrashimy (not that odd when you remember that her torp-focus is negated by Soviet-ness), then Somers and Benham (8 torps PER SIDE!). Something bigger is going on here.

Solid deduction.

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I don't think uptiering the early 30's USN destroyers by giving them better torpedoes is particularly good design, their low HP totals and miserable AA are going to cause problems for the ships their torpedo armament can't solve.

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A 1937 destroyer with 1945 torpedoes.

I don't really see the appeal to use the Somers when the Gearing is actually built for tier X. Now if this thing was say tier VIII with Mk 15 Mod 0s, it would be may more competitive. But as it stands, the Gearing is just better, and there isn't much of a good reason to waste coal/steel for a ship that all it has running for it is two extra torpedoes on a slightly faster reload.

First the Benham at tier IX instead of tier VIII or VII. I don't really understand the decisions to make these two USN destroyers such high tiered ships just because they have really good torpedoes and nothing else. Fletcher and Gearing compared to both Benham and Somers respectively is just night and day: the tech tree ships can survive their tiers, while these new premiums just have a lot of powerful torpedoes at their disposal while still being in their 1930's builds.

Edit:

As far as a Shimakaze comparison? The Shimakaze has DP guns and better close range AA, so planes can't just park themselves on top of you. The torpedoes are set up in 3x4 to 3x5 and reload far slower sure, but the potential damage of just a spread of 10 is 237k compared to a full 12 is 228k, so the longer reload is well worth it plus the 2 extra km of range. As far as preventing overkill by firing only 2 spreads, the shima can fire a standard 10 spread and have another 5 in reserve, while the Somers can fire a smaller 8 with 4 in reserve.

So even if you want to make the comparison between the Shima and the Somers, the Shima is mostly superior in all but broadside weight damage, which is 4,722 vs 4,257 (Regular penetrations, being 33% of the full possible damage multiplied by the number of gun barrels).

Edited by SuperCustodiam
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Somers is a pretty looking ship and I'm more interested than I possibly should be.

I'd echo some other concerns - a 1937 destroyer refitted to a 6-gun, 8-torp configuration by 1944, equipped with the silly Fletcher torpedo. They've been fairly optimistic on her speed as well, most sources I've seen give 37kt, not 38.6.

The AA is utterly abysmal, though some of the time it doesn't matter. A destroyer shooting down 0.1 aircraft is just as useless as one shooting down 0.01. Against dropped fighters though... the ability to chop some out of the sky would seem to be rather handy.

I'm also a bit annoyed that after a long time of 'can we have a T9 or T10 prem destroyer? The answer is 'yes, but only if it's American or Russian'.

 

I could imagine a T8 Somers, 96 RPM is hardly much of a leg up on 90 on Benson. You could give something like the 6.4km torpedoes and make her a 12-torp ambush or destroyer fighting monster. Concealment could be wiggled accordingly for balance. AA would suck even there, but that's life I guess. One of the more interesting refits like Davis with 2x2 and 1x1 5in/38 DP could also be an alternative.

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On 5/20/2019 at 1:25 AM, mofton said:

Somers is a pretty looking ship and I'm more interested than I possibly should be.

I'd echo some other concerns - a 1937 destroyer refitted to a 6-gun, 8-torp configuration by 1944, equipped with the silly Fletcher torpedo. They've been fairly optimistic on her speed as well, most sources I've seen give 37kt, not 38.6.

The AA is utterly abysmal, though some of the time it doesn't matter. A destroyer shooting down 0.1 aircraft is just as useless as one shooting down 0.01. Against dropped fighters though... the ability to chop some out of the sky would seem to be rather handy.

I'm also a bit annoyed that after a long time of 'can we have a T9 or T10 prem destroyer? The answer is 'yes, but only if it's American or Russian'.

 

I could imagine a T8 Somers, 96 RPM is hardly much of a leg up on 90 on Benson. You could give something like the 6.4km torpedoes and make her a 12-torp ambush or destroyer fighting monster. Concealment could be wiggled accordingly for balance. AA would suck even there, but that's life I guess. One of the more interesting refits like Davis with 2x2 and 1x1 5in/38 DP could also be an alternative.

The recent nerf on torp makes it unsuitable for steel ships. What do you think?

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On 5/17/2019 at 10:54 PM, Muninn77 said:

Pretty much.

The Gearing really is not much of a gunboat anymore, only beating the Shima, but it is a great torpedo boat, only losing to the Shima, and it looks like Somers doubles down on that.

The torps may not hit as hard as the IJN ones, but because they are quadruple mounts instead of quintuple, the reload should be better. Probably closer to the Z-52 reload time, with better warheads.

Nonsense. The Gearing is a MUCH BETTER torpedo boat than the Shima.

  • The Gearing has 16.5km torps that are 66 knots, low detect and very usable. You can turn these into VERY deadly 13.2km 71 knots torps if you use the torp acceleration skill.
  • The Shima has totally crap torpedoes that were nerfed to the ground. The 20km torps are totally useless with a very slow 55 knots speed and 2.5km detection. You won't hit anything with them The 12km torps are siply inferior tot he gearing's 16.5km torps, losing 4.5km in range for a bit more damage and increase in detection. If you accelerate them these are very high detect 16km torps (inferior to the gearing's) or 9.8km torps (still inferior to the gearings')
  • The Gearing tubes also reload in 104 secs -- much faster than Shima tubes

This is not to mention that the Gearing is a good enough gun boat at close range whereas the Shima is NOT. The Gearing also turns well enough to avoid torps most of the time whereas the Shima eats torps for breakfast.

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On 5/18/2019 at 10:17 AM, Pytheas said:

Do we know what it will take to acquire? Steel? Coal?

However good she may or may not be, I wonder how we will acquire her.

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On 5/18/2019 at 11:24 AM, Aetreus said:

I don't think uptiering the early 30's USN destroyers by giving them better torpedoes is particularly good design, their low HP totals and miserable AA are going to cause problems for the ships their torpedo armament can't solve.

This would be cool if these new premiums were apart of a new usn DD line and not unique spinoffs. 

The usn CL split had Boise which matched the usn CL line 150%; what does Benham/Somers match?

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Well the ship still on WIP... lets hope they change the nerfs they say in recent dev blog.

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