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Ericson38

Did all ships get AA buff from CV rework ?

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I know there were cap skill free reassignments, but weren't there some ships that had AA buffed ?

 

Which ones, and which ones didn't ?

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Hard to say.

Going by absolute DPS values, all ships' AA was buffed.

Relatively is a different story though.

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I believe there was an increase in ship AA  with the first patch after the CV was re-released - they were doing reasonable/good damage to all ship types. Then after the AA buff protecting the bigger ships, this led to the CVs targeted DDs a lot more (because they pretty much became the only viable target). Of course as the DDs have the worst survival anyway, WG then nerfed the CV a bit more in the next patches to prevent the impact to the DDs. Of course everybody blamed the DDs because - hey, everybody seemed to have forgot about the initial patch change to AA that helped the other ships.....but that's pretty much it as far as I remember.

And we are where we are, but with the CV re-work continuing.

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Great question OP.  There is 200+ ships in the game.  I'll make a list of those that got buffs and those that didnt and edit it in.  You wait right here...

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The THEORETICAL Damage was a net buff, but the ACTUAL Damage was a net loss, due to increased RNG courtesy of Flak accuracy and Flak spread.

The IJN notably had their AA nerfed extremely hard; to the point it's practically nonexistent. But even former "No Fly Zone" ships like DM, Salem, Cleveland, Atlanta, and Texas suffered a net AA nerf, being unable to shoot down planes until after the second or third attack pass, and even then, only if they were lucky to not get nuked in that time period.

Then WG further nerfed AA effectiveness as a group (maximum is now 445% or so, down from 600%), which is why even more matches tend to end up as two tight globs when CVs are present. No one wants to be the first one impotently killed by the opposing CV.

And then there's AADF; which has become a practically useless consumable since it lost the "Panic" feature that made it invaluable. Which was complete nerf to ALL AADF-capable ships.

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Yeah, overall ships took a heavy AA nerf (with some exceptions). One of the biggest issues was (and continues to be) the idiotic decision to have each AA band only work within its own zone, instead of the previous stacking of them as planes got closer. This meant ships with good long-range AA but not all that much light AA took a huge hit since T8/10 CVs can blow through the outer zone in moments if they know what they're doing. On the opposite side of the coin are ships that got buffed due to this change, like HIV, due to mounting ZERO light AA, which means they get to use their powerful mid-range band (and accompanying flak clouds) even against planes right overhead. Because that totally makes sense.

The other side of what makes the AA so nerfed is so much of most ship's mid/long-range AA damage getting moved into flak. Which is a problem, because it's INCREDIBLY predictable as to where it's forming once you understand the mechanics behind it. So you have a mechanic which can be lethal against garbage CV players (leading to them whining AA's too powerful) while nearly useless against good ones - and that's to say nothing of almost all torpedo bombers (the long range IJN DW torp ones on Hakuryu are I think the only exception) being ENTIRELY immune to flak when they're in an attack run.

Edited by NozTheWhiteDawn

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Mostly it was a net nerf, as part of the rework was to remove "no-fly zones" around say, a des moines, minotaur, or even a grozovoi. I can assure you as someone with both a grozovoi and a worchester, the CV will touch you if he wants to. 

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8 minutes ago, PG908 said:

...the CV will touch you if he wants to. 

Sounds kind of creepy.  

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1 hour ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I believe there was an increase in ship AA  with the first patch after the CV was re-released - they were doing reasonable/good damage to all ship types. Then after the AA buff protecting the bigger ships, this led to the CVs targeted DDs a lot more (because they pretty much became the only viable target). Of course as the DDs have the worst survival anyway, WG then nerfed the CV a bit more in the next patches to prevent the impact to the DDs. Of course everybody blamed the DDs because - hey, everybody seemed to have forgot about the initial patch change to AA that helped the other ships.....but that's pretty much it as far as I remember.

And we are where we are, but with the CV re-work continuing.

i didnt have a problem with 8.0 or 8.1 patch in my dd. Yes the first 2 days my damage numbers tanked from 45k to 20k while i got used to there attacks and teaching myself how to counter them. After the 3rd day i was back 2 doing 45 to 60k a match. The only diffrence was my captian skills and the aa mod was used more instead of the aiming mod. so now i have to be more percise with my aiming 

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10 minutes ago, usspaul3 said:

i didnt have a problem with 8.0 or 8.1 patch in my dd. Yes the first 2 days my damage numbers tanked from 45k to 20k while i got used to there attacks and teaching myself how to counter them. After the 3rd day i was back 2 doing 45 to 60k a match. The only diffrence was my captian skills and the aa mod was used more instead of the aiming mod. so now i have to be more percise with my aiming 

That's why the game isn't about how you do or I do, it's how the player base performs. There are always good and bad players - it's the community that matters and that's what the stats/evidence is about.

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1 minute ago, _WaveRider_ said:

That's why the game isn't about how you do or I do, it's how the player base performs. There are always good and bad players - it's the community that matters and that's what the stats/evidence is about.

yes but what im gettting at is if a potato player like me can do good someone who is of average preformance and do so much better then me if they just learn to think more about how they approach the game. I dunno maybe its cause i always look at things logically instead of emotonally like so many people seem to like to do. Yes i get annoyed yes i get my butt handed to me in several games. Ive had just as many 3k games as ive had 50 to 60 k games. on average ill have at least 4 games where i do 3k damage in the akizuki because i screwed up. but Then i take a deep breath and approach the game from a diffrent mind and then get  my 50k and 60k games to bring my average damage back up. That is something a lot of people dont do. They rush in they dont think tactacily  or realise there mistakes tell its too late because they lack patients to see how the battle is flowing. I do my best when i tab out of the game as match is loading to look at something on the forum or put something on youtube to listen to when im in match. When i tab back in 1 minute has arleady went by in the match and i can see how the battle flow is heading and go where i might be needed. Perhaps that is something all dds need to start doing. wait a few minutes to see how the battle is gonna unfold before comming to a point and getting themsleves killed

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I'd say at its face value it's more dangerous than before the rework.    However,  they did create some AA mechanics that an experienced handler can avoid with skilled handling of plane groups which wasn't available before.   Basically about 1/3 of the AA's (long range flak)  new strengths can be negated to various levels determined by the skill of the  pilot.   Not to mention some range loss for AA on some ships.  Really difficult to measure how this compares to the old system as the entire mechanics for both sides are seriously redone.     Its definitely still a WIP on some ships..    I still at times close my eyes flying into some ships that I know should be suicide and make it out with more planes than I should and other times attack a ship that should have terrible AA and get strong planes wiped clean?   I'd say the AA system probably needs the most attention of any of the reworked mechanics personally.        

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1 minute ago, usspaul3 said:

yes but what im gettting at is if a potato player like me can do good someone who is of average preformance and do so much better then me if they just learn to think more about how they approach the game. I dunno maybe its cause i always look at things logically instead of emotonally like so many people seem to like to do. Yes i get annoyed yes i get my butt handed to me in several games. Ive had just as many 3k games as ive had 50 to 60 k games. on average ill have at least 4 games where i do 3k damage in the akizuki because i screwed up. but Then i take a deep breath and approach the game from a diffrent mind and then get  my 50k and 60k games to bring my average damage back up. That is something a lot of people dont do. They rush in they dont think tactacily  or realise there mistakes tell its too late because they lack patients to see how the battle is flowing. I do my best when i tab out of the game as match is loading to look at something on the forum or put something on youtube to listen to when im in match. When i tab back in 1 minute has arleady went by in the match and i can see how the battle flow is heading and go where i might be needed. Perhaps that is something all dds need to start doing. wait a few minutes to see how the battle is gonna unfold before comming to a point and getting themsleves killed

And all I'm saying is no matter the type of player 'you' are, you are but one player amongst many - that is what the stats are for.

All the rest is how you approach your game, which is interesting to here, but is only how you play the game. Now if you want to start saying that bad players need to get good, then yes they need to try at least - but if you are saying that DD players are worse than other players then I disagree. What the issue is, is that they get punished far worse than another ship type when they make the mistake. Now you can say that is fair or you can say 'yeah, why isn't bad play equally punished?' That's again up to you.

It just doesn't change the facts. :Smile_honoring:

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A 5.8km aura which is now typical for ships which used to be able to reach 7.2km covers an area 105km2.

The 7.2km radius aura covered 163km2.

The powerful mid-range auras have also collapsed down.

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2 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

And all I'm saying is no matter the type of player 'you' are, you are but one player amongst many - that is what the stats are for.

All the rest is how you approach your game, which is interesting to here, but is only how you play the game. Now if you want to start saying that bad players need to get good, then yes they need to try at least - but if you are saying that DD players are worse than other players then I disagree. What the issue is, is that they get punished far worse than another ship type when they make the mistake. Now you can say that is fair or you can say 'yeah, why isn't bad play equally punished?' That's again up to you.

It just doesn't change the facts. :Smile_honoring:

im not tring to say there worse players by defualt i mean there worse because of the gameplay the class promots. Because most dds have fast firing pop guns  and are the fastest ships they tend to get themselves killed due to overaggression. Something that if tone down a bit would do wonders to keep them alive. Think about this for a minute. If let me say the poor and average dd player where to practice more caution then they wouldnt get trapped by radar so much for one. 2 when they are going to cap having enough friendlys close by to help kill a dd and there friends easier keeps you a live. These 2 things alone greatly increase my survivablity when i play. When i dont practis this i die fast. I bait the other dd to start shooting its guns before i pop my smoke. this normally lets my team see that dd for 20 seconds while i get free hits while taking little to no damage. Something i learned from watch  that destroyer kurosio guys youtube videos. I dont exacute it as good as him but small things like that and watching how the battle unfolds is things that help me live longer and get more damage.  But time and time again i see dds rush in with little to no backup no exit plane and died within moments. Then come onto the forums to cry. 

as for aa. again when your only detected at 3k cv planes cant really attack you and most times dont even notice you until its too late. Lots of times they will avoid you if your aa is turned off. Ive had several matches where i knew i wouldnt be able to shoot down midway planes so i keep my aa off. The plane some time fly my way but i try to move away from where they are heading. Lots of times they go past  me without noticing me, other times they do spot me but ignore me to go after the bb thats 10km from me cause its an easier target. Its all about  making it hard for cvs to find you. When i play cvs i hate dds that have there aa turned off cause there a pain to find and kill. DDs that keep there aa on allow me to line up my shoot and hit them 3 times. I find that 90% of the dd players i come across keep there aa on. The 10% of dds that keep it off make it so annoying to attack that i normal just leave alone enless there to close to my hull. Then i spam my planes until they are dead or they kill me. 

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So they nerfed the range, no overlapping zones, loss of effectiveness when combining ships AAs, easily avoidable flak, near useless defensive fire consumable, near useless modules ,and near useless Captain skills for AA. 

Fighter planes also got a huge beat down.  Both in number of charges (from 6-8 to 2 in most cases) The biggest effect was to again panic squads much like DF, so that to is gone. If that wasn't' enough there is a giant circle saying hey just avoid me for 60 seconds then you can go attack that ship at your leisure marker on the mini map.

So no. AA did not get buffed.  It got nerf HARD with no lube.

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1 minute ago, usspaul3 said:

im not tring to say there worse players by defualt i mean there worse because of the gameplay the class promots. Because most dds have fast firing pop guns  and are the fastest ships they tend to get themselves killed due to overaggression. Something that if tone down a bit would do wonders to keep them alive. Think about this for a minute. If let me say the poor and average dd player where to practice more caution then they wouldnt get trapped by radar so much for one. 2 when they are going to cap having enough friendlys close by to help kill a dd and there friends easier keeps you a live. These 2 things alone greatly increase my survivablity when i play. When i dont practis this i die fast. I bait the other dd to start shooting its guns before i pop my smoke. this normally lets my team see that dd for 20 seconds while i get free hits while taking little to no damage. Something i learned from watch  that destroyer kurosio guys youtube videos. I dont exacute it as good as him but small things like that and watching how the battle unfolds is things that help me live longer and get more damage.  But time and time again i see dds rush in with little to no backup no exit plane and died within moments. Then come onto the forums to cry. 

as for aa. again when your only detected at 3k cv planes cant really attack you and most times dont even notice you until its too late. Lots of times they will avoid you if your aa is turned off. Ive had several matches where i knew i wouldnt be able to shoot down midway planes so i keep my aa off. The plane some time fly my way but i try to move away from where they are heading. Lots of times they go past  me without noticing me, other times they do spot me but ignore me to go after the bb thats 10km from me cause its an easier target. Its all about  making it hard for cvs to find you. When i play cvs i hate dds that have there aa turned off cause there a pain to find and kill. DDs that keep there aa on allow me to line up my shoot and hit them 3 times. I find that 90% of the dd players i come across keep there aa on. The 10% of dds that keep it off make it so annoying to attack that i normal just leave alone enless there to close to my hull. Then i spam my planes until they are dead or they kill me. 

I understand what you are saying. DD players should be more careful.

Shouldn't all players be more careful?

Or are you saying DD players are worse - because I play all ship types and am not really bad in any of them? I don't believe DD players are prone to making any more mistakes than anyone else; maybe you do?

If they are then for 'fun and engaging gameplay' shouldn't changes be made to make things a bit even for these supposed 'worse' players? Or if they aren't worse, shouldn't changes be made to make things a bit better for those players that aren't any worse than any other players and are getting punished worse (and for no supposed HRHR) ?

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7 minutes ago, usspaul3 said:

as for aa. again when your only detected at 3k cv planes cant really attack you and most times dont even notice you until its too late. Lots of times they will avoid you if your aa is turned off. Ive had several matches where i knew i wouldnt be able to shoot down midway planes so i keep my aa off. The plane some time fly my way but i try to move away from where they are heading. Lots of times they go past  me without noticing me, other times they do spot me but ignore me to go after the bb thats 10km from me cause its an easier target. Its all about  making it hard for cvs to find you. When i play cvs i hate dds that have there aa turned off cause there a pain to find and kill. DDs that keep there aa on allow me to line up my shoot and hit them 3 times. I find that 90% of the dd players i come across keep there aa on. The 10% of dds that keep it off make it so annoying to attack that i normal just leave alone enless there to close to my hull. Then i spam my planes until they are dead or they kill me.

I can confirm with PTS experience, oftentimes if a DD has his/her AA turned off by the time the CV spots you they'll have to turn away or end up overshooting you and going into friendlies (If they are close enough)

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The purpose of the changes to the AA was to make the CV debut as success as can be. Every aspect of the game was made so that the CV can drop their ordinance on their first strike. Every aspect of the game was to ensure that the CV does the first strike and is in the vast majority of cases the last ship on his/her team to die. The AA Flak upgrades are less than worthless, because a good CV player knows how to avoid the flak and you are depriving yourself of the upgrade that you had before you changed it.

The only buff I see is that every now and then my dd shoots down whole squadrons of planes which never happen in the previous meta. 

 

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What happened was that the mechanics of AAA changed, with any ship able to put up any AA fire able to catch a fighter squadron with a flak cloud that does heavy damage. Also, the numbers of flak clouds became determined by the number of guns on a ship.

 

Instead of the ship's AA doing damage directly to the planes, it became a question of how many flak clouds hit the planes, as constant damage aside from flak became too small relative to the hp of the squadron to do much. Thus, ships that prior to the rework were purchased and sold as capable of creating no-fly zones of protection for their teammates found they couldn't do that anymore, while other ships that previously suffered from poor AAA suddenly found themselves as good as the supposed AA ships.

 

Add to that that Battleships suddenly came to have more AA that Cruisers due to the higher number of guns on them, and the entire previous setup on which ships were introduced, sold, purchased, and balanced for changed completely.

 

So, all ships received a buff if their flak clouds hit enemy planes, but a nerf if they didn't, leading to the impression of both taking place...because they were. AAA is now much more dependent on the actions of the attacker rather than the defender, and Battleships are generally the AA ships of a team now.

 

My opinion of course.

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3 hours ago, Ericson38 said:

I know there were cap skill free reassignments, but weren't there some ships that had AA buffed ?

 

Which ones, and which ones didn't ?

Overall, the current AA system is a vast downgrade from what we had in the Pre-Rework days.

Atlanta use to reach out 7.2km, now 5.8km.

Worcester, Seattle, Neptune, Minotaur used to reach out to 8.6km, now about 6.9km.

We had CTRL+LMB AA focus on a specific unit.

Defensive Fire was much stronger.

 

But we also dealt with far harder hitting Carriers in those days that had finite aircraft.

 

Just as Carriers in the rework lost their powerful, old Alpha Strike capability, so did our AA.  Still, I think the AA system could use a few small tweaks, i.e. improving range with AFT & AAGM1.  That way key AA skills + AA upgrades make an actual AA ship not only better able to defend itself, but defend nearby teammates.

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20 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I understand what you are saying. DD players should be more careful.

Shouldn't all players be more careful?

Or are you saying DD players are worse - because I play all ship types and am not really bad in any of them? I don't believe DD players are prone to making any more mistakes than anyone else; maybe you do?

If they are then for 'fun and engaging gameplay' shouldn't changes be made to make things a bit even for these supposed 'worse' players? Or if they aren't worse, shouldn't changes be made to make things a bit better for those players that aren't any worse than any other players and are getting punished worse (and for no supposed HRHR) ?

all ship type get punished for there mistakes. Cruisers actually get it worse then dds because they have citadels while dds dont. One wrong move and they get 1 shotted. DDs rarely get one shotted endless they run into torps. But then that can be said about most ships too. Im saying they are worse player because of the way dds promote overly aggressive play. When you have the lowest concealment in game the fastest firing guns people tend to rush into things. Its a mind set thing, and habit they the Average and Poor dd players need to break to help the class as a whole. Listen i derp too , sometimes i just dont think and try to play the game cod style. That gets me killed because this game is more a tactacal game vs a COD style game. Think of its as this game is akin to Battlefeld series. Where as a lot of the average and poor players want to play the game in a COD style game play. The 2 games are the same in first person shoots but in battlefield at least the older ones not sure about the newer games you had to think more. Aiming was more important ,positining to take points was more important. In COD you just point and shot and run. When you try to play battlefield like COD you die a lot and your stats tank. Well that same idea applies here. You need to take a more tactical aproach to the game play specially when everything in this game is sudden death instead of unlimed lives like in cod or battlefield 

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