Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
general_D_H_Chun

"Bring the CVs in line with other classes"

96 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

218
[MIA-P]
Members
84 posts
4,788 battles

This was the argument made for this rework. Plenty would have just been fine with the RTS being balanced and made more accessible for the rest of the playerbase, but this rework creates problems to solve problems.

Simply put, I have zero clue what the planes are "in line" with. 

The rate at which they launch attacks has been significantly increased, leading me to believe they want the planes to be more like shells

So then, why do they still have high alpha? Why do they have heals? Why does AA kill them after the attack is released? Why can they fly around indefinitely?

If they're like ships, on the contrary, then now we have a problem, because you can't put a  flying "ship" against a system (AA) practically completely controlled by a computer, not the player. What skill can ever come out of clicking on a sector? Won't it be braindead if it can still shoot down planes? Even the ctrl + click system had more skill than this. 

There's zero satisfaction in getting blasted out of the sky by the equivalent of a bot. There is practically no skill involved in getting memed by a 33k health squadron that just dodges the randomly spawned flak clouds.

Someone's going to suffer if this is the system. And the planes don't resemble shells in function and application in the slightest.

Simply put, the philosophy behind this entire change has been very confusing. I have no clue what they want, but I'm gradually thinking it's not something good.

Are they flying ships? Are they shells that you have to recover and reuse? What are they being brought in line to resemble? 

  • Cool 5
  • Boring 1
  • Bad 13
  • Angry 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,420
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
3,985 posts
14,070 battles

Why would you think that bringing them in line with the other classes requires some kind of 1:1 parallel between planes and shells or ships? That's a leap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
100
[A_C_F]
Members
196 posts
3,193 battles
1 minute ago, RipNuN2 said:

They still have high alpha? Huh?

I was wondering the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,422
[90TH]
[90TH]
Alpha Tester
6,574 posts
8,217 battles
19 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

Are they flying ships?

it is rumoured (seriously) that the code for the CV rework is based on the (rejected) code for implementing cruise missiles in WOWS. In short, the rework was never a rework, but a shoehorning DIY back yard fudge of dodgy code glued to hyperbole and coke.

And this would make sense of your confusion, of the current hybrid between flying ships / shells. It also explains the very limited flight characteristics of squadrons (no altitude control, for example). It would, if true, explain why WOWS halloween submarines get altitude depth control, and greater and better simulation, than our current rework air squadrons.

  • Cool 2
  • Boring 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,645
Members
22,283 posts
5,775 battles

Quite simply, "bringing them in line with other classes" means giving them similar controls, and playing on the same rendition of the map.

It doesn't matter what the planes represent, the fact that you drive them around with WASD makes them closer to what everyone else is playing than the prvious iteration.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
320
[WOLFC]
Members
849 posts
5,922 battles
12 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

 There is practically no skill involved in getting memed by a 33k health squadron that just dodges the randomly spawned flak clouds.

 

1

The % of CV drivers who can do this is smaller then people realise - everytime a purple plane kill shows up on your screen, that means you are not playing somebody who does that.  i.e.  Most CV games flak kills planes.

 

13 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

Plenty would have just been fine with the RTS being balanced and made more accessible for the rest of the playerbase, but this rework creates problems to solve problems.

1

My understanding is CV usage is way up from prior to 8.0,  but has dropped somewhat in the last week or so.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,380
Alpha Tester
5,859 posts
2,864 battles
9 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

They still have high alpha? Huh?

The only high alpha I've seen on CVs is when my Enterprise dive bombers find a German BB. :cap_haloween:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
100
[A_C_F]
Members
196 posts
3,193 battles

If CV's now have "high alpha" then what would you call what he had before the rework?

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
205
[KAPPA]
Members
711 posts
5,595 battles
20 minutes ago, HeadSplit120 said:

If CV's now have "high alpha" then what would you call what he had before the rework?

The hand of god, perhaps. You die! And you die! And you die! Everyone dies!

But, in all seriousness, it honestly feels like the anti-CV crowd has forgotten what old CVs were like.

  • Cool 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
394
[-WTP-]
Members
1,079 posts
2,060 battles

1 ship torp does more damage than 9 torp bombers carrying 18 micro torps that are easily dodged, spotted 9km out, and can be ended before the torp run even begins.  I think the high part is right, it's the alpha that's missing.

Edited by NoSoMo
  • Cool 2
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
388
[ODIN]
Members
1,314 posts
3,206 battles
55 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

They still have high alpha? Huh?

My thoughts exactly. I enjoy the new CVs, but high alpha? Maybe when I get a lucky detonation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
794
[DOTM]
Beta Testers
1,012 posts

The only aircraft that have a heal are torpedo bombers on tier 8 and 10 CVs.

CV alpha is also pretty damn low compared to most other classes. Yeah, you can get outlier strikes with dive bombers but those are the exception rather than the rule. The Midways aerial torpedoes, for example, have a paltry 4200ish max damage per torpedo but you'll rarely see them hit for that much. I've landed all six torpedoes on BBs before and only did about 10-12k damage. That's equal to just one ship launched torpedo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
670
[CVRME]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
1,597 posts
6,563 battles

To the people who pretend CVs don't have high alpha potential-- Tell that to the DDs I see who lose 25%+ to a good DB hit.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
794
[DOTM]
Beta Testers
1,012 posts
5 minutes ago, CaliburxZero said:

To the people who pretend CVs don't have high alpha potential-- Tell that to the DDs I see who lose 25%+ to a good DB hit.

I'll take 'What is an outlier?' for 500, Alex.

It's almost like the class with the least armor and health in the game is more prone to getting hit hard by high explosive weapons. Yeah, a CV CAN hit them hard, but that's rarer than you think. The average damage my attacks usually do to a DD is in the 1000-3000 damage range, or about in line with getting hit with HE shells from cruisers.

Versus cruisers and BBs, meanwhile, carrier alpha is not very high.

  • Cool 2
  • Bad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,418
[CAFE]
Beta Testers
4,491 posts
9,692 battles
8 minutes ago, CaliburxZero said:

To the people who pretend CVs don't have high alpha potential-- Tell that to the DDs I see who lose 25%+ to a good DB hit.

Any class can do this to a DD in 1 volley.

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,130
[FOXEH]
Beta Testers
10,585 posts
15,896 battles
46 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

Why would you think that bringing them in line with the other classes requires some kind of 1:1 parallel between planes and shells or ships? That's a leap.

B A L A N C E !! (you CV Captains do remember that word, no?)

16 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

But, in all seriousness, it honestly feels like the anti-CV crowd has forgotten what old CVs were like.

The old CV meta was like 2 turds in a punch bowl; the new meta is like removing 1. Yes, it's better, but no one is lining up for a glass full of it.

11 minutes ago, NoSoMo said:

1 ship torp does more damage than 9 torp bombers carrying 18 micro torps

A TBF Avenger torpedo bomber weighs in at 17,900 lbs, or just under 9 tons. A Fletcher clad DD weighs in at 2500 tons fully loaded. Do you think the carrying power of one might outstrip the other? Air dropped torps have to be lifted off of aircraft carriers by airplanes, which is why they are significantly smaller, lighter, and have smaller warheads than torps carried by ships which only have to be shoved out a great big tube by compressed air. Thinking must also have been labeled OP, because obviously it got nerfed too.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
100
[A_C_F]
Members
196 posts
3,193 battles
52 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

The hand of god, perhaps. You die! And you die! And you die! Everyone dies!

But, in all seriousness, it honestly feels like the anti-CV crowd has forgotten what old CVs were like.

Yeah that's about right.  I do miss the days of manual torp drops and watching a full health BB get deleted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
670
[CVRME]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
1,597 posts
6,563 battles
30 minutes ago, Spyde said:

Any class can do this to a DD in 1 volley.

The truth is always skewed when you leave out very important factors like you've just done that plays a huge role in the DD being one-shot/high-alpha'd-- Except no other class can, at will, hit you regardless of position outside of heavy clustering of teammates, no other class can hit you anywhere on the map at will, and no other class can force you to be spotted if they so choose so as long as you aren't in smoke.  

But you know, none of that matters.  /s

36 minutes ago, Zaydin said:

I'll take 'What is an outlier?' for 500, Alex.

It's almost like the class with the least armor and health in the game is more prone to getting hit hard by high explosive weapons. Yeah, a CV CAN hit them hard, but that's rarer than you think. The average damage my attacks usually do to a DD is in the 1000-3000 damage range, or about in line with getting hit with HE shells from cruisers.

Versus cruisers and BBs, meanwhile, carrier alpha is not very high.

And i'll take moving the goal posts  for 1000, Alex.

My comment was ONLY to the idea that CVs were **incapable** of high Alpha hits.  This was not in relation to other classes, and in my time on here no, its pretty regular unless the DD wants to burn smoke anytime the CV decides they want him/her to die.  If there are DDs on the field and the CV is high-skill (And lately I division with Seraphic at times, this is very, very regular) then it is a certainty it will happen.  Sure, DD is most prone to high-explosive weapons but that doesn't change the one (And only) fact I wanted to state people here were trying to pretend didn't happen-- Yes a CV can high alpha strike.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Please stop trying to add more to the argument just to de-value this fact.

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,420
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
3,985 posts
14,070 battles
40 minutes ago, Umikami said:
1 hour ago, Edgecase said:

Why would you think that bringing them in line with the other classes requires some kind of 1:1 parallel between planes and shells or ships? That's a leap.

B A L A N C E !! (you CV Captains do remember that word, no?) 

You can only achieve balance if planes are a perfect analogy to shells? Does it blow your mind if I tell you some of the chess pieces work differently from each other? If not, why would you expect that the types of ships need perfect analogies either?

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
249
Beta Testers
703 posts
9,300 battles
2 hours ago, HyenaHiena said:

High alpha? What the hell you smoke today?

When an AP bomb strike takes 40k off your BB it feels like high alpha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,485
[O7]
Supertester, Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
11,351 posts
8,084 battles

While I wouldnt call CV strikes high alpha I think the OP has a very good point that is being ignored by everyone railing on a single sentence. The satisfaction of the CV vs surface ship engagement is missing.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
670
[CVRME]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
1,597 posts
6,563 battles
Just now, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

While I wouldnt call CV strikes high alpha I think the OP has a very good point that is being ignored by everyone railing on a single sentence. The satisfaction of the CV vs surface ship engagement is missing.

I personally have called for a revamp of the AA system for something player-controlled and skill-based.  Will it ever happen?  I don't think so, or at the very least.. not anytime soon.  WG is more than likely not going to do such a drastic rework/overhaul and they seem to be reluctant of going this route.

OP does indeed have a good point but I don't go that route in talking about it-- Because we are talking about how someone *feels* regarding said satisfaction.  If we go by that metric, you'll have a hundred good CV players (a couple have clearly commented here, its no secret why they enjoy the status quo and defend CV) say "oh but I find it fun, therefore fine" which is why in a Lincoln-Douglas format debate, "attitudinal inherency" of a problem is deemed a bad argument.  This is a perfect example, as its subjective.

That being said there is something that should be done on this.  But in my honest opinion, WG and the feedback surrounding CV will have to be dragged through the mud for many months for them to consider a move so drastic, or at the very LEAST.. a mechanical rework that is better, not small tweaks like we're seeing now.  A wait timer, reticle change, and number changes are tweaks.. not reworks with MAYBE the reticle counting as a very small one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
594 posts
4,958 battles

I'd argue that hitting a DD for that much damage isn't high alpha, it's low heath pool vs bombs that are meant to deal damage to ships with far larger health pools. I am a CV player (or at least have been using them since the rework, I was garbage at the RTS system), but I'm also a DD player, and on top of that I play cruisers and battleships too. I try not to favor one class too much with opinions, I prefer to think of myself as a jack of all trades. One thing that pure DD players seem to forget is that they are driving what is theoretically the most expendable unit in the game at the moment, other than perhaps planes if you care to count them as such. There is a reason I don't put much weight behind what people that focus entirely on one class say, they don't get the full picture. Yes, DBs can hit a DD hard, but only HE DBs and that's usually USN. From my understanding, the whole USN CV line is based around using DBs as the main source of damage with rockets and torps playing more of a secondary role, whereas the IJN is supposed to be all about the torps, but I still feel like I'm dropping nerf darts and when you only drop 2 of them at a time, it takes a while to stack up any sort of respectable damage total. RN on the other hand has the 'glide bombing' thing, which I'm still not quite sold on, but I haven't played with them since before WG decided they could change the gravitational constant of the Earth, because balans. Poor GZ can't seem to figure out what she's supposed to be good at, as they keep changing how her planes work, so sometimes she's just forced to be a CL instead. 

Honestly, I'd love to see torps get a damage or flood chance boost across all CVs, HE DBs are fine-ish, perhaps a touch powerful vs DDs, but until rockets are actually more viable vs DDs, HE DBs are the counter to DDs that a CV has (and of course the IJN and GZ don't have them, except for Kaga). Rockets need some kind of help either directly like an arming range reduction or indirectly by increasing the range at which DDs are detected by rocket planes (but perhaps not other planes, it's an idea). One thing that would change things drastically would be to improve the way CVs can fight each other to protect their respective teams. The drop fighters are still more useful as spotters than fighters and they are blind as heck. I find something wrong with that. If a friendly CV could do more to protect their DDs or AA lacking ships, it would help with the whole 'perma spotted' or 'helpless vs planes' thing that seems to be the never ending complaint, not to mention, some of us find the idea of fighting for air superiority interesting or maybe we like the idea of protecting teammates. We're not all scavenging vultures looking to ruin someone's day just to mess with them.

Edited by CaptHarlock_222
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×