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Dan_1607

Dont mess with the CVs, fix the DDs

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Fix DDs and make the game better.  Don't nerf the only weapon (air attacks) against DDs in the game.

Make the game more realistic.

This is just a suggestion.

As we all know, compared to CAs and BBs, DDs were very fragile.  In WOW game, DDs are Super Weapons.  In reality, at night, a squadron of DDs, could not get a single torpedo hit on the Bismarck.  The DDs could not get close enough to the Bismarck without being destroyed, AT NIGHT.  In WOW Game Play, DDs can sink BBs and CAs with gunfire, by burning them up, this never happened.  DDs rely on stealth and speed.  Perhaps what is needed is that the DDs actually represent a squadron of 3 DD's.  When DDs are attacked, they could take damage to one ship at a time.  As the DD Squadron attacks, it does its damage to the enemy ship(s) based upon he 3 attacking types of DDs in the squadron and it takes its hits, and if it takes enough damage, one of the three DD's in the squadron is sunk.  When this happens, the DD squadron fighting effectiveness is reduced by 1/3.  The DD Target ship still remains on the map, it now represents 2 DD's instead of 3 and so on.  Finally, Air attacks on a DD Squadron only damage one DD on an attack run.  Therefore, it would always take at least 3 perfect separate air attack runs on a DD Squadron to sink all 3 DDs. 

If a squadron of 3 DDs attacked a BB, it could get close enough to launch Torps.  If a squadron of 3 DDs attacked a CA with just guns, depending upon the ship types, it might be able to actually sink the CA.  But the reality is the DDs would take hits or some of them be sunk if they attacked a  BB or CA.  The WOW game presently does not have this realistic game play.  Presently, DDs sneak within a few thousand meters launch torps, the BB is sunk and the game is ruined.  Anybody who can not see a DD which is almost as big as a Football Field (70 to 100 Meters) at 8000 Meters, would not pass the physical to be in the Navy.  When DDs attack a BB or CA they should take hits.  After all, BBs and CAs have many more smaller Rifles on either side of the BB or CA, then a DD has combined. 

Game play for DD squadrons could be as simple as the Captain (DD Player) decides what 3 types of DDs he wants to add into his squadron.  The Captain might choose one DD with good anti air defenses, one DD with good Long Range Torpedoes, and one DD with lots of guns to balance out his DD Squadron.  Or the DD Squadron Captain could select 3 DDs with high numbers of Torps.  But on the Map it always looks like one DD and the Detectability remains as it is.        

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ORP Piorun got close enough to engage Bismarck with her guns and flash "I am a Pole" at her, presumably while flipping the bird, and remained so for at least half an hour before retreating without getting hit.

This is a GAME it is made to be "fun". "Fun" in a competitive PvP game like this means that each player has the tools to do similar damage and have similar influence, even if it is done in different ways. Reality is nothing like that, reality is always looking for the "I WIN" button because there's more at stake that virtual credits and ships; but rather lives, goods, territory, and even the fate of whole nations when combat is involved. One player, one ship. That's a lot easier to balance and makes much more mechanical sense.

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 so good you posted it twice

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50 minutes ago, Dan_1607 said:

Make the game more realistic.

Sure.

Let's make your BBs have 4-6% main battery accuracy.

Also, DDs should outnumber BBs in matchmaking. 

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1 hour ago, Dan_1607 said:

Fix DDs and make the game better.  Don't nerf the only weapon (air attacks) against DDs in the game.

Make the game more realistic.

This is just a suggestion.

As we all know, compared to CAs and BBs, DDs were very fragile.  In WOW game, DDs are Super Weapons.  In reality, at night, a squadron of DDs, could not get a single torpedo hit on the Bismarck.  The DDs could not get close enough to the Bismarck without being destroyed, AT NIGHT.  In WOW Game Play, DDs can sink BBs and CAs with gunfire, by burning them up, this never happened.  DDs rely on stealth and speed.  Perhaps what is needed is that the DDs actually represent a squadron of 3 DD's.  When DDs are attacked, they could take damage to one ship at a time.  As the DD Squadron attacks, it does its damage to the enemy ship(s) based upon he 3 attacking types of DDs in the squadron and it takes its hits, and if it takes enough damage, one of the three DD's in the squadron is sunk.  When this happens, the DD squadron fighting effectiveness is reduced by 1/3.  The DD Target ship still remains on the map, it now represents 2 DD's instead of 3 and so on.  Finally, Air attacks on a DD Squadron only damage one DD on an attack run.  Therefore, it would always take at least 3 perfect separate air attack runs on a DD Squadron to sink all 3 DDs. 

If a squadron of 3 DDs attacked a BB, it could get close enough to launch Torps.  If a squadron of 3 DDs attacked a CA with just guns, depending upon the ship types, it might be able to actually sink the CA.  But the reality is the DDs would take hits or some of them be sunk if they attacked a  BB or CA.  The WOW game presently does not have this realistic game play.  Presently, DDs sneak within a few thousand meters launch torps, the BB is sunk and the game is ruined.  Anybody who can not see a DD which is almost as big as a Football Field (70 to 100 Meters) at 8000 Meters, would not pass the physical to be in the Navy.  When DDs attack a BB or CA they should take hits.  After all, BBs and CAs have many more smaller Rifles on either side of the BB or CA, then a DD has combined. 

Game play for DD squadrons could be as simple as the Captain (DD Player) decides what 3 types of DDs he wants to add into his squadron.  The Captain might choose one DD with good anti air defenses, one DD with good Long Range Torpedoes, and one DD with lots of guns to balance out his DD Squadron.  Or the DD Squadron Captain could select 3 DDs with high numbers of Torps.  But on the Map it always looks like one DD and the Detectability remains as it is.        

You might ask the U.S. Navy about whether or not destroyers can attack cruisers and battleships. The Japanese seemed to have pretty good luck with them.

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2 hours ago, Doombeagle said:

You might ask the U.S. Navy about whether or not destroyers can attack cruisers and battleships. The Japanese seemed to have pretty good luck with them.

USN DDs from Taffy 3 held back an entire Japanese task force with just 3 destroyers and 4 destroyer escorts. 

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1 hour ago, Legio_X_ said:

USN DDs from Taffy 3 held back an entire Japanese task force with just 3 destroyers and 4 destroyer escorts. 

Not because they were DD's and DDE's though.........the Japanese thought they were larger ships and reacted accordingly. 

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5 hours ago, Dan_1607 said:

Fix DDs and make the game better.  Don't nerf the only weapon (air attacks) against DDs in the game.

Make the game more realistic.

This is just a suggestion.

As we all know, compared to CAs and BBs, DDs were very fragile.  In WOW game, DDs are Super Weapons.  In reality, at night, a squadron of DDs, could not get a single torpedo hit on the Bismarck.  The DDs could not get close enough to the Bismarck without being destroyed, AT NIGHT.  In WOW Game Play, DDs can sink BBs and CAs with gunfire, by burning them up, this never happened.  DDs rely on stealth and speed.  Perhaps what is needed is that the DDs actually represent a squadron of 3 DD's.  When DDs are attacked, they could take damage to one ship at a time.  As the DD Squadron attacks, it does its damage to the enemy ship(s) based upon he 3 attacking types of DDs in the squadron and it takes its hits, and if it takes enough damage, one of the three DD's in the squadron is sunk.  When this happens, the DD squadron fighting effectiveness is reduced by 1/3.  The DD Target ship still remains on the map, it now represents 2 DD's instead of 3 and so on.  Finally, Air attacks on a DD Squadron only damage one DD on an attack run.  Therefore, it would always take at least 3 perfect separate air attack runs on a DD Squadron to sink all 3 DDs. 

If a squadron of 3 DDs attacked a BB, it could get close enough to launch Torps.  If a squadron of 3 DDs attacked a CA with just guns, depending upon the ship types, it might be able to actually sink the CA.  But the reality is the DDs would take hits or some of them be sunk if they attacked a  BB or CA.  The WOW game presently does not have this realistic game play.  Presently, DDs sneak within a few thousand meters launch torps, the BB is sunk and the game is ruined.  Anybody who can not see a DD which is almost as big as a Football Field (70 to 100 Meters) at 8000 Meters, would not pass the physical to be in the Navy.  When DDs attack a BB or CA they should take hits.  After all, BBs and CAs have many more smaller Rifles on either side of the BB or CA, then a DD has combined. 

Game play for DD squadrons could be as simple as the Captain (DD Player) decides what 3 types of DDs he wants to add into his squadron.  The Captain might choose one DD with good anti air defenses, one DD with good Long Range Torpedoes, and one DD with lots of guns to balance out his DD Squadron.  Or the DD Squadron Captain could select 3 DDs with high numbers of Torps.  But on the Map it always looks like one DD and the Detectability remains as it is.        

Ohh the tears of a clown :)

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4 hours ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

Let's make your BBs have 4-6% main battery accuracy.

Fine by me, as long as Destroyers get a realistic torpedo hit rate (it's ~0.02% of all DD launched torpedoes hit something (I'm tracking down every DD launched torpedo of WWII and the numbers do not look good, single digit hits per year for most nations, with the RN way ahead most years, Italian a bit below that (Mediterranean/Norwegian Campaign was just a giant torp fest) and the IJN averaging <10 per year in all years but 42'; the only nations' DD's to land less hits than the IJN were the KM (yes, French Destroyers landed more between 39 and 45), largely due to most of their DD's sunk in 2 Days at Narvik)).

Oh and BB's were closer to 10-15%. The 4-6% is a parroted line with no data to support it. Meanwhile there are loads of data showing it's closer to 10-15% across both wars, 20-22% in WWII (thanks to USN/RN Radar directed gunnery). The myth of BB inaccuracy and DD Torpedo accuracy comes from a place I will never understand but research/facts is not it.

4 hours ago, Doombeagle said:

You might ask the U.S. Navy about whether or not destroyers can attack cruisers and battleships. The Japanese seemed to have pretty good luck with them.


It's always worth remembering that 2 of 3 Destroyers present were sunk. It was not a 1 sided battle at all. There are about 2 dozen Narviks for the 1 Samar. Also, it was shooting at the Japanese, not exactly the hallmark of a competent surface force.

Edited by _RC1138

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CVs ruin all the other class, DDs are just the worst hit. WG should address the cause of the problem, which are CVs. They don’t belong in the game.

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Just now, Desertfox51 said:

CVs ruin all the other class,

Really? Because they haven't ruined Cruisers at all. And BB's, the so called 'crybaby' class is noticeably silent all through this CV rework. It really does seem to be by a HUGE margin DD's complaining.

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5 hours ago, Dan_1607 said:

Fix DDs and make the game better.  Don't nerf the only weapon (air attacks) against DDs in the game.

Make the game more realistic.

This is just a suggestion.

As we all know, compared to CAs and BBs, DDs were very fragile.  In WOW game, DDs are Super Weapons.  In reality, at night, a squadron of DDs, could not get a single torpedo hit on the Bismarck.  The DDs could not get close enough to the Bismarck without being destroyed, AT NIGHT.  In WOW Game Play, DDs can sink BBs and CAs with gunfire, by burning them up, this never happened.  DDs rely on stealth and speed.  Perhaps what is needed is that the DDs actually represent a squadron of 3 DD's.  When DDs are attacked, they could take damage to one ship at a time.  As the DD Squadron attacks, it does its damage to the enemy ship(s) based upon he 3 attacking types of DDs in the squadron and it takes its hits, and if it takes enough damage, one of the three DD's in the squadron is sunk.  When this happens, the DD squadron fighting effectiveness is reduced by 1/3.  The DD Target ship still remains on the map, it now represents 2 DD's instead of 3 and so on.  Finally, Air attacks on a DD Squadron only damage one DD on an attack run.  Therefore, it would always take at least 3 perfect separate air attack runs on a DD Squadron to sink all 3 DDs. 

If a squadron of 3 DDs attacked a BB, it could get close enough to launch Torps.  If a squadron of 3 DDs attacked a CA with just guns, depending upon the ship types, it might be able to actually sink the CA.  But the reality is the DDs would take hits or some of them be sunk if they attacked a  BB or CA.  The WOW game presently does not have this realistic game play.  Presently, DDs sneak within a few thousand meters launch torps, the BB is sunk and the game is ruined.  Anybody who can not see a DD which is almost as big as a Football Field (70 to 100 Meters) at 8000 Meters, would not pass the physical to be in the Navy.  When DDs attack a BB or CA they should take hits.  After all, BBs and CAs have many more smaller Rifles on either side of the BB or CA, then a DD has combined. 

Game play for DD squadrons could be as simple as the Captain (DD Player) decides what 3 types of DDs he wants to add into his squadron.  The Captain might choose one DD with good anti air defenses, one DD with good Long Range Torpedoes, and one DD with lots of guns to balance out his DD Squadron.  Or the DD Squadron Captain could select 3 DDs with high numbers of Torps.  But on the Map it always looks like one DD and the Detectability remains as it is.        

Its true.

Stealth torping.

Perma stopping. 

Planes are the only hard county to dd. There is radar but its short range and duration. Once rasar is down the dd is still perma spot.

Fix the DD.

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1 hour ago, Legio_X_ said:

USN DDs from Taffy 3 held back an entire Japanese task force with just 3 destroyers and 4 destroyer escorts. 

there is a lot more to that engagement than a few dd. You know that. Dont diatort the battle to prove a point.

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1 minute ago, jags_domain said:

there is a lot more to that engagement than a few dd. You know that. Dont diatort the battle to prove a point.

Indeed. CVE's kept them just as on their toes as anyone else and likewise, the phrase, "Exception proves the rule," comes to mind; the fact that Taffy 3/Samar sticks so out in the mind is just how outlandish and abnormal it was; in pretty much every other circumstance where DD's met larger fleet units in a surface battle, they were sunk with disproportionate losses, including other instances for the USN. Really just Cape Bon and Malacca Strait are the only other examples of Destroyers meeting larger surface units and winning.

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12 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Indeed. CVE's kept them just as on their toes as anyone else and likewise, the phrase, "Exception proves the rule," comes to mind; the fact that Taffy 3/Samar sticks so out in the mind is just how outlandish and abnormal it was; in pretty much every other circumstance where DD's met larger fleet units in a surface battle, they were sunk with disproportionate losses, including other instances for the USN. Really just Cape Bon and Malacca Strait are the only other examples of Destroyers meeting larger surface units and winning.

You also have the I in commander that really did not aant to engage. Unlike the game the IJN had no idea what they were shooting at so firing so vs the fletcher was not working. But once they switched to HE it did not last long.

You also had a commander in Evens that was brave or insaine and he would not be denied.

There still need to be a sim mode to Experance this.

Edited by jags_domain

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2 hours ago, Legio_X_ said:

USN DDs from Taffy 3 held back an entire Japanese task force with just 3 destroyers and 4 destroyer escorts. 

Had the Japanese task force knew what they are actually facing there, they will easily roflstomp them to kingdom come.

Stop waving your Eagleland flag.

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A DD's are OP thread?

Bless you OP, with all the CV threads, we needed one of these.

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DDs are the most inaccurate representation of a warship in this game.    Most of the ships sunk by DDs in WW2 era were mop up jobs on disabled ships.    IJN had some success with them and long lances but only pretty much in night missions...  They were too fragile to be used as a offensive weapon for the most part.   They were pretty much designed as an escort ship & for protecting from sub attacks..  However, in this game, players have turned them into stealth gods and UNI's have farmed some pretty insane win rates with them and their ability to conduct massive alpha strikes with minimal risk to their own HP pool via stealth.   The now common presence of CVs has challenged that and now you see it on these forums...      

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19 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

Had the Japanese task force knew what they are actually facing there, they will easily roflstomp them to kingdom come.

Stop waving your Eagleland flag.

They did roflstomp them. 2/3 DD's were sunk, 1/4 DE's were sunk, and 2/6 CVE's were sunk. That's one of the worst single-day losses the USN Suffered in WWII (Pearl Harbor and Savo Island are the only ones worse that come to mind immediately). It wouldn't have mattered had they known they were DE/DD's or not though, as the primary objective of the Center Force was to bombard landing grounds, and by the time Taffy 3 had been (largely) neutralized, they had expended far too much ammunition to risk staying on station.

3 minutes ago, RA6E_ said:

IJN had some success with them and long lances but only pretty much in night missions... 

Examples? I think if you actually look this up you will be surprised at how rarely those Type 93's, when launched from *DESTROYERS* actually landed hits. For context, IJN Cruisers, most years, landed upwards of 3x to 5x as many hits per year as Destroyers.

Edited by _RC1138

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11 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

 

Examples? I think if you actually look this up you will be surprised at how rarely those Type 93's, when launched from *DESTROYERS* actually landed hits. For context, IJN Cruisers, most years, landed upwards of 3x to 5x as many hits per year as Destroyers.

I completely agree...  You would just be hard pressed to find other examples where DDs were even actually used as offensive weapons.      There were pretty much none where they didn't have close support from heavier warships.   I know its a video game arcade, but taking a DD out and lone wolf owning a BB....   Some in this game even easily do it with their guns..   they've made an honest attempt in this game to make it somewhat historically relevant, but DD used like that might as well be a alien ship as an accurate historical representation of what the class did.  Players reliance on them and the stealth has probably more than anything been a  destabilizing force in this game.   Hey don't get me wrong.. I think they are huge fun....   but trying to balance that meta against historic reality is difficult.         

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32 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

Had the Japanese task force knew what they are actually facing there, they will easily roflstomp them to kingdom come.

Stop waving your Eagleland flag.

Like all war, you can “what if” all day. Reality is that the very aggressive attacks of the USN destroyers swayed the Japanese commander in pursing the escort carriers further.

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14 minutes ago, RA6E_ said:

You would just be hard pressed to find other examples where DDs were even actually used as offensive weapons. 

The RN and USN did it on a few occasions that come to mind; Vella Gulf, 2nd Narvik, a few ops during the Battle for the Med like Cape Bon. This was largely due to radar allowing them to pick their battles at long range and know if they would win long before the first shots were fired. But generally no, Destroyers of all stripes were escorts, not offensive. There already were ships that were offensive scouts: Cruisers.

14 minutes ago, RA6E_ said:

Some in this game even easily do it with their guns..   they've made an honest attempt in this game to make it somewhat historically relevant, but DD used like that might as well be a alien ship as an accurate historical representation of what the class did.  Players reliance on them and the stealth has probably more than anything been a  destabilizing force in this game.   Hey don't get me wrong.. I think they are huge fun....   but trying to balance that meta against historic reality is difficult.         

Even if you remove all historical context, DD's in this game still do not make sense. In no game (other than WoWs) does a Stealth Class have the following advantages:

1) Freedom from spike damage (no citadel, cannot take BB AP Spike anymore, ect); Stealth classes elsewhere are just as vulnerable to being spiked as anything else (it is in fact by DESIGN how they are SUPPOSED to be killed: kill the stealth guys FAST or they will kill you).

2) Default to Stealth (in most games stealthing is a TEMPORARY resource that is used as needed, not on at all times)

2a) Most games have much more robust vision control against Stealth classes (AKA Reveals) that both last longer (relative to engagement time), have longer (relative) range, and refresh MUCH faster; for Examples SWTOR's reveal:

Stealth Scan Stealth ScanStealth Scan

Instant
Cooldown: 20 seconds
Range: 30m

 
Fires off probes that scan the area for stealthed opponents. The probes last for 10 seconds.

3) Said stealth comes with an immediate debuff (in nearly all games being stealthed comes with a movement penalty, a damage penalty, or an armour/health debuff (hits taken while invisible scale at 3x normal damage for example).

4) Can fire their most damaging attack and REMAIN stealthed; not even in *single* player games can a stealth unit fire it's most damaging and dangerous attack and STAY invisible. Even in Mass Effect 2/3, if you shoot/cast a power while invisible you become visible. And that's single player games. In no MP game I have ever been made aware of can you fire an attack and stay stealthed.

5) Have the ability to apply both Spike and Sustained DPS(DoTs). There are a *few* games that allow this (mostly MMO's) but the vast majority do not let you both set fire/flood/bleed a target AND hit him with a massive damaging strike. It's almost always 1 or the other.

6) Stealth Classes do not typically (i.e. the VAST majority of time) counter *tanks*, they counter Ranged DPS/DPS Harassers. Tanks and Melee DPS can always either outlast or out DPS a stealth unit.

So even leaving out history, as the DD crowd so loves to do, they STILL do not make sense.

Edited by _RC1138
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Hey OP, since you're a history fan and want realism just wanted to remind you that a single air launched torp from a pre war era "fighter" disabled the rudder of the Bismarck and he just turned in a big circle until the British surrounded and killed him.  You good with no repair/ damage control?

And in the Pacific most of the CV combat was plane vs plane.  Most casualties were due to having to fight through the thick layer of fighter protection flying patrol above the surface fleet.  AA from ships was relatively tame....so in that regard WG is pretty well spot on already.  

They are going to have to nerf CV weapon accuracy though.  One weapon per plane per drop, maybe 2 at most for DBs.  And very inaccurate.  The entire battle of Midway was fought and the US only had one torp hit total...and that was a PBY recon plane against a merchant ship.  I cant find any historical record that an unguided rocket ever hit a ship or was used at all in naval combat during this era so we will just have to throw those out completely.  They were ground strike weapons used to support landings/attack fixed targets.  

Your Midway CV will be capped at its historical max of about 100 planes,  50/50 for attack/fighter defense.  Hope that's ok.  

Your realistic game sounds crap to me.  Good luck though.  

 

Edited by T_O_dubl_D

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14 minutes ago, T_O_dubl_D said:

Hey OP, since you're a history fan and want realism just wanted to remind you that a single air launched torp from a pre war era "fighter" disabled the rudder of the Bismarck and she just turned in a big circle until the British surrounded and killed him.  You good with no repair/ damage control?

And in the Pacific most of the CV combat was plane vs plane.  Most casualties were due to having to fight through the thick layer of fighter protection flying patrol above the surface fleet.  AA from ships was relatively tame....so in that regard WG is pretty well spot on already.  

They are going to have to nerf CV weapon accuracy though.  One weapon per plane per drop, maybe 2 at most for DBs.  And very inaccurate.  The entire battle of Midway was fought and the US only had one torp hit total...and that was a PBY recon plane against a merchant ship.  I cant find any historical record that an unguided rocket ever hit a ship or was used at all in naval combat during this era so we will just have to throw those out completely.  They were ground strike weapons used to support landings/attack fixed targets.  

Your Midway CV will be capped at its historical max of about 100 planes,  50/50 for attack/fighter defense.  Hope that's ok.  

Your realistic game sounds crap to me.  Good luck though.  

 

That's not how this works... people  demand realism only when it benifits them, and their chosen play style.

Otherwise all of these DD haters would point out that BBs and CVs should be exceedingly rare, and cost prohibitive to repair/return to action. How long was West Virginia out of action after Pearl Harbour?

 

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4 hours ago, Legio_X_ said:

USN DDs from Taffy 3 held back an entire Japanese task force with just 3 destroyers and 4 destroyer escorts. 

That was one battle and the Japanese misidentified the fleet. They were certain a fleet carrier and battleships made up the rest of the group. Don’t forget several escort carrier were part of the battle and helped push the Japanese back. 

Look you made an argument for CV usefulness.

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