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MutsuKaiNi

German ships, powercrept and pointless

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As they stand currently and in the current meta, German ships seems utterly useless and powercrept. I'm speaking mostly from a high tier perspective with focus towards clan wars and other more competitive game modes. Now why is this, well lets look at the lines

German DD used to be quite good, Z52 used to be a cap contesting monster... then everyone and their mom got radar and Daring came along, so why use Z52 when Daring does it better?

German cruisers have always been kind of mediocre at best, Hindenburg being the exception, except with the nerfs Hindy got at the end of clan wars season 2. Then WG, in all their infinite wisdom decided to give Henri IV an absurdly strong gimmick and not even touch its reload time, unlike Charles and Saint Louis. So suddenly Hindy's greatest strength, her very high HE pen, suddenly means nothing when Henri does it better.

German BBs have never really been useful, fun sure, but never useful. Among my friend circle GK is a floating joke and more then likely the team with more GKs will lose, why, because having poor accuracy but good secondaries really isn't useful in the current passive HE spamming, camping meta. Plus what is the point in having a hard to hit turtleback citadel when you will eat massive pen damage constantly, and by the looks of it the upcoming Russian BBs will basically make the Germans completely obsolete.

 

Now how could this be fixed? Well for the DDs, I'm not sure, DDs are notoriously hard to balance so if anyone has an idea on how to fix them I'm all ears.

Cruisers, easy. NERF HENRI ALREADY! 

Battleships, two ways to go about this, make the secondaries even longer range, I'm talking if you fully spec for them, they should reach out to 14-15km, or just make them actually have some accuracy in their main battery, would improve the experience of playing them a lot right there.

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Hindy is a great ship i feel. Yes the Henry is better, but something about that German AP at broadside targets makes me warm and fuzy inside. I tried the rudder shift mod, but didnt fit my playstyle of long range HE spamming at start of match, then playing hide and seek around islands mid/late game.

german BBs? I saw the writing on the wall when i hit T7. They are so powercrepped its not even funny. Add to their stupid RNG dispersion. I sold the T7 and stopped.

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That Hindenburg nerf was a sick joke. Please undo it already.

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12 minutes ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

Cruisers, easy. NERF HENRI ALREADY! 

 

Isn't screaming for nerfs what caused Hindy to be in the position it's in now? Why not just give Hindy back her old reload?

I'd like to see a ship buffed,  rather than drag it's competition down to the same lower level.

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33 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

Hindy is a great ship i feel. Yes the Henry is better, but something about that German AP at broadside targets makes me warm and fuzy inside. I tried the rudder shift mod, but didnt fit my playstyle of long range HE spamming at start of match, then playing hide and seek around islands mid/late game.

german BBs? I saw the writing on the wall when i hit T7. They are so powercrepped its not even funny. Add to their stupid RNG dispersion. I sold the T7 and stopped.

The Hindy may arguably be a better knife fighter than the Henri because it has a lot more torpedoes, though shorter ranged ones.  Not sure if you'd be able to force a knife fight with a Henri though since it is much faster, though I suppose if you caught one in an ambush, a Hindy would be in a good position to do well.

 

As for the German BBs, to me, this shows why this design concept of the strong secondary BB at the expense of some main gun accuracy is bad.  I happen to think that it would be better for the game if ALL battleships had good secondaries (relative to how many they mounted and the quality of those guns, of course) with good range, and that all BBs would have respectably good accuracy.   Of course, a) I doubt this will happen and b) it would make one of the Mass/Bama pair irrelevant, except for its name, if both BBs had equally good secondaries and main gun batteries.  BTW, when I say "good secondaries", I mean that good would be a relative thing.  Since different BBs mount different sec guns, different BBs secondary performance would be different.  BBs that mount 6" sec guns might have more range with those guns, but at the cost of a lower RoF.  And BBs with smaller sec guns might have a higher RoF.  I'd think that it could all be balanced out.  But the general idea would be that having good secondaries doesn't mean that they'd all have to be the same.  Just that what made them "good" might differ from based on the various sec guns (i.e. caliber, RoF, etc.)

Also, if all BBs had "good" secondaries, many of them might feel more willing to close the range on enemy BBs, whereas now, a weak secondary BB is making an iffy decision to close into sec gun range of a strong secondary BB, because he's giving the enemy BB a significant advantage.  

 

Anyways, just a couple of thoughts.

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I loved my Hindenberg, it was a total scourge of the seven seas. They nurfed the reload, and then it was over taken by other cruisers quickly. The problem these guys always have, if a ship is balanced and performing well, they will nurf it. They always have to make another ship and line better, it's the dark side of pay to play. If a ship is good, people will grind and pay to get it. If it's bad, they wont go near it...

It's like the wheel example from GoT...this ones on top...then that one...round and round it spins. 

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At least at my point of view Hindenburg is not much fun to drive. I grind up the german cruiser line and have one game in hindenburg and let it sit there..On the other hand I have 290 games in DM, 250 games in Zao and 150 games in Henry...Not that the hindenburg is not good, it is just not as good as the zao and Henry in my perspective. 

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I love the German BBs...

...but I havent gone beyond tier 7 because it is prohibitively expensive in silver to operate ships at tier 8 and above for free2play accounts.

Plus the gameplay style at high tiers doesnt look fun at all. Plus, the community seems more toxic the higher you go.

Not fun, IMO.

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Every line should have at least one meta relevant ship and I don't think Germany does right now. Can't speak for DD because I don't play them but it's in a pretty sad state otherwise. 

 

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I not agree, only talk about the ones I played. Hindy is a very good ship (in it I grinded my first 19 points cap), Nurnberg, Yorck, Roon are good ones too. I like z-46 very much... but till now the one I enjoyed in the grind was the T-22.

Gneisenieau is perfect, I grind very well in Bayern.

So... no, for me German line has very good ships

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7 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I love the German BBs...

...but I havent gone beyond tier 7 because it is prohibitively expensive in silver to operate ships at tier 8 and above for free2play accounts.

Plus the gameplay style at high tiers doesnt look fun at all. Plus, the community seems more toxic the higher you go.

Not fun, IMO.

I play free to play account. Look at this

29.04.2019 New warship    PASC107_0313da8b996f2dcc654d6f4aa69d8a19c5ffc29b42a012bcb97768249f77697b.png New Orleans
22.04.2019 New warship    PBSC110_616426f25b262f14ad40b63d1cf9264b236c37cb3a2b574dc197e5b81f10881d.png Minotaur
11.04.2019 New record 61 destroyed planes  PASA108_386d630f0633afb7d8780c7cf00a0ba01965695be83953501f4da7aad4d60bb1.png Lexington
03.04.2019 New warship    PJSC034_4ff33cd01dbf1be2998e56d24f0ebd229f96b0f45183925996660da926b0bb2b.png Zao
01.04.2019 New warship    PBSC109_68f4d8117a230d7e27ad8c6d5d8442fb225a426b3dc2d2883e1d6ca5522f2612.png Neptune

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15 minutes ago, Feyevich said:

I play free to play account. Look at this

29.04.2019 New warship    PASC107_0313da8b996f2dcc654d6f4aa69d8a19c5ffc29b42a012bcb97768249f77697b.png New Orleans
22.04.2019 New warship    PBSC110_616426f25b262f14ad40b63d1cf9264b236c37cb3a2b574dc197e5b81f10881d.png Minotaur
11.04.2019 New record 61 destroyed planes  PASA108_386d630f0633afb7d8780c7cf00a0ba01965695be83953501f4da7aad4d60bb1.png Lexington
03.04.2019 New warship    PJSC034_4ff33cd01dbf1be2998e56d24f0ebd229f96b0f45183925996660da926b0bb2b.png Zao
01.04.2019 New warship    PBSC109_68f4d8117a230d7e27ad8c6d5d8442fb225a426b3dc2d2883e1d6ca5522f2612.png Neptune

Your point is?

Do you play lower tiers to finance high tier play? Not my idea of fun.

You might just be better than me as well.

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18 minutes ago, Feyevich said:

Gneisenieau is perfect

LOL.. although overall I kind of like this ship, firing it's main guns is like throwing paint at the wall!  Sure it will hit the wall your just not sure where! 

I'm not sure it is as bad as the Nagato was for me at least, but it comes very close.   If you can get in close though.. tough nut to crack.

I'm trying to grind up through the BB line, once I finish that I'll have all the lines done for the Germans, except CV's and that won't happen.

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1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Your point is?

Do you play lower tiers to finance high tier play? Not my idea of fun.

You might just be better than me as well.

The point is to say to you, that you can. If me (an average player can) you could do too. I use flags, free premium time, free premium ships, etc. I bought the Hindy camo selling a free preimum camo (free too).

This wasnt an offence to you.

 

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Z-52 is in a rough spot.  That hydro can be devastating when used correctly when your opponent screws up, but that's about the end of the good news.  It used to be the ultimate brawling dd, with its hydro giving it the advantage over Gearing even though Gearing could put out more DPM.  Now, both those ships can get smoked by a Daring or a Harugumo in seconds.  Torpedoes have great reload but are lacking in range, damage, and quantity. 

Z-52 used to be my best T10 but I don't take it out much anymore. 

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German ships, especially battleships, have a really hard time in this meta, and its painful to play them at the moment. 

They rely on secondaries to do damage at medium range. These secondaries are good, and the armor is rather foolproof, but in return for that you get some of the worst guns in terms of accuracy in the game (I feel) 

I like secondaries, I do. They can be fun to roll in and just melt things. But I will always choose accuracy with something that I can control over something I don't. I still see German BB and Massachusetts players kinda boldly charge in to get into secondary range only to die from concentrated fire from outside that range. 

In all it seems German ships kinda prefer knife fights, and for most players, there's a disconnect when those are supposed to happen in relation to the battle landscape. 

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6 minutes ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

German ships, especially battleships, have a really hard time in this meta, and its painful to play them at the moment. 

They rely on secondaries to do damage at medium range. These secondaries are good, and the armor is rather foolproof, but in return for that you get some of the worst guns in terms of accuracy in the game (I feel) 

I like secondaries, I do. They can be fun to roll in and just melt things. But I will always choose accuracy with something that I can control over something I don't. I still see German BB and Massachusetts players kinda boldly charge in to get into secondary range only to die from concentrated fire from outside that range. 

In all it seems German ships kinda prefer knife fights, and for most players, there's a disconnect when those are supposed to happen in relation to the battle landscape. 

Yep, the ships are best used as support...basically a tank that just absorbs shots.

I can place my Gneisnau angled on a flank and enemy ships wont push me because I have secondaries and torps.

I dont do a lot of damage (unless i get to flank...in which case I'm very, VERY dangerous), but my teammates get lots of benefit from my positioning.

So, i have a high win rate and an average damage output. It's just a different playstyle.

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19 minutes ago, Feyevich said:

The point is to say to you, that you can. If me (an average player can) you could do too. I use flags, free premium time, free premium ships, etc. I bought the Hindy camo selling a free preimum camo (free too).

This wasnt an offence to you.

 

None taken.

It's just that I dont play to maximize damage done...but to get wins. So even at tier 7, it can be difficult for me to break even.

I dont have lots of flags...because I dont play enough to make much out of ranked seasons.

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What do you mean? In my GK a Bismarck showed full broadside at 10km, all 12 guns unload on her...  3k damage!!!!!!  

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2 hours ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

As they stand currently and in the current meta, German ships seems utterly useless and powercrept. I'm speaking mostly from a high tier perspective with focus towards clan wars and other more competitive game modes. Now why is this, well lets look at the lines

German DD used to be quite good, Z52 used to be a cap contesting monster... then everyone and their mom got radar and Daring came along, so why use Z52 when Daring does it better?

German cruisers have always been kind of mediocre at best, Hindenburg being the exception, except with the nerfs Hindy got at the end of clan wars season 2. Then WG, in all their infinite wisdom decided to give Henri IV an absurdly strong gimmick and not even touch its reload time, unlike Charles and Saint Louis. So suddenly Hindy's greatest strength, her very high HE pen, suddenly means nothing when Henri does it better.

German BBs have never really been useful, fun sure, but never useful. Among my friend circle GK is a floating joke and more then likely the team with more GKs will lose, why, because having poor accuracy but good secondaries really isn't useful in the current passive HE spamming, camping meta. Plus what is the point in having a hard to hit turtleback citadel when you will eat massive pen damage constantly, and by the looks of it the upcoming Russian BBs will basically make the Germans completely obsolete.

 

Now how could this be fixed? Well for the DDs, I'm not sure, DDs are notoriously hard to balance so if anyone has an idea on how to fix them I'm all ears.

Cruisers, easy. NERF HENRI ALREADY! 

Battleships, two ways to go about this, make the secondaries even longer range, I'm talking if you fully spec for them, they should reach out to 14-15km, or just make them actually have some accuracy in their main battery, would improve the experience of playing them a lot right there.

Russia was attacked twice by Germany in WW1 and WW2.  Russians own WOW. It's natural that the German ships will be inferior. In reality they were great ships but here they have been reduced to average at best. The Hindy can do well with a Good driver but she is the exception. It's to bad the makers of the game let their personal biasis creep in and influence ship performance.

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2 hours ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

As they stand currently and in the current meta, German ships seems utterly useless and powercrept. I'm speaking mostly from a high tier perspective with focus towards clan wars and other more competitive game modes. Now why is this, well lets look at the lines

German DD used to be quite good, Z52 used to be a cap contesting monster... then everyone and their mom got radar and Daring came along, so why use Z52 when Daring does it better?

German cruisers have always been kind of mediocre at best, Hindenburg being the exception, except with the nerfs Hindy got at the end of clan wars season 2. Then WG, in all their infinite wisdom decided to give Henri IV an absurdly strong gimmick and not even touch its reload time, unlike Charles and Saint Louis. So suddenly Hindy's greatest strength, her very high HE pen, suddenly means nothing when Henri does it better.

German BBs have never really been useful, fun sure, but never useful. Among my friend circle GK is a floating joke and more then likely the team with more GKs will lose, why, because having poor accuracy but good secondaries really isn't useful in the current passive HE spamming, camping meta. Plus what is the point in having a hard to hit turtleback citadel when you will eat massive pen damage constantly, and by the looks of it the upcoming Russian BBs will basically make the Germans completely obsolete.

 

Now how could this be fixed? Well for the DDs, I'm not sure, DDs are notoriously hard to balance so if anyone has an idea on how to fix them I'm all ears.

Cruisers, easy. NERF HENRI ALREADY! 

Battleships, two ways to go about this, make the secondaries even longer range, I'm talking if you fully spec for them, they should reach out to 14-15km, or just make them actually have some accuracy in their main battery, would improve the experience of playing them a lot right there.

Honestly, IMHO Z52 is fine. She actually has the strongest base AA of T10 DDs (not like DD AA matters) and Has a full 3km to get away from a contesting daring. Honestly she's no worse off than other DDs at T10.... though that means she's as useless as the rest of them.

Hindy could use a DPM buff, but we need to make sure she isn't overbuffed again-and Henri 4 is a totally different issue, though why the gave a strong (but boring) ship a straight buff will never stop amazing me.

GK has always been a tanky shotgun, amd while I could get behind a small sigma buff, I don't think buffing secondaries is ever the way to go. Secondaries should be a fun point and click meme but they should NEVER replace player skill. However, the GKs problem is that it currently doesn't reward skill either, which is why I'd support a .1 or .15 sigma buff to GK.

While I think you're a little hyperbolic overall, Hindy and GK could use some small buffs to help them compete in their class, and Z52s problems are a class wide issue that is certainly not exclusive to her.

Edited by Kingpin61
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3 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

Russia was attacked twice by Germany in WW1 and WW2.  Russians own WOW. It's natural that the German ships will be inferior. In reality they were great ships but here they have been reduced to average at best. The Hindy can do well with a Good driver but she is the exception. It's to bad the makers of the game let their personal biasis creep in and influence ship performance.

"...(German ships) were great ships..."

<Compares them to USN ships>

No. Not even close.

It's all a game anyway. Just arcade fantasy.

I find I can get more wins out of German ships than other ships. Is this relevant to real world history? Not at all. And that's ok.

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One of the reasons I started playing this game was to play the German line of BBs and DDs. Personally, I think War Gaming has German issues. Have you ever noted that only German Capt. are ever pictured wearing eye patches. What's up with that? :cap_hmm: 

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2 hours ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

German cruisers have always been kind of mediocre at best, Hindenburg being the exception, except with the nerfs Hindy got at the end of clan wars season 2. Then WG, in all their infinite wisdom decided to give Henri IV an absurdly strong gimmick and not even touch its reload time, unlike Charles and Saint Louis. So suddenly Hindy's greatest strength, her very high HE pen, suddenly means nothing when Henri does it better.

The decline of the Hindenburg was from a variety of things:

  • Zao buff (the 12km torps are very useful in Clan Battles)
  • Henri buff (obviously Main Battery Reload Booster is useful)
  • Hinden dpm nerf (at same time zao/henri got dpm buffs)
  • Zao/Henri legendary modules are far superior
    • The Hinden one is... bad. Fires/flooding should never be doing enough damage that you die from it. But you do die from lack of conceal...
    • Zao/Henri buff DPM
  • Moskva/Stalin presence in CB
    • Henri can farm from 20km away; Hindi needs plane to do this

Hindenburg is an all around utility CA. But that is a niche not needed in Clan Wars. It's still a solid ship in randoms. But it's just needed in CB anymore. I stopped playing as much Hindenburg in randoms once it wasn't needed for Clan Wars; I can't be the only one.

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2 hours ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

Cruisers, easy. NERF HENRI ALREADY! 

So just because Henri has better HE and Hindy is no longer best that means Henri should be nerfed?  Hindy is an absolute tank compared to Henri when it comes to armor so you are ok with stripping that off of Hindy?  Or you want Hindy to have it all?

I agree with you 100% on the Z52 and on DDs and BBs (especially high tier BBs) in general that the Germans have been ridiculously power crept and need some help but the Hindy is still a very strong ship and hard to fight against and just because it may not be #1 in every single category across the board is not a good reason to nerf other ships.  

Edited by T_O_dubl_D

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