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awildseaking

Flip KGV and Monarch

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These ships need the Myoko/Mogami treatment. For those of you who don't know, Mogami used to be T7 and Myoko used to be T8. WG realized how much better Mogami fit at high tiers and swapped the ships.

Here's why KGV is better than Monarch:

  1. 6% higher fire chance
  2. Extra gun
  3. Almost identical (concealment, health pool, rate of fire, most of the armor model) except a tier lower
  4. 38.1cm guns are not unique for T8 and offer no advantages, 35.6cm with high fire chance are unique and offer many advantages
  5. 32mm deck is not unique for T8 either, it's standard fare

With literally zero adjustments to balance, KGV would outperform Monarch at T8. You might think Monarch could just be buffed, but that's where you're wrong. The fundamental role these ships play is the real reason KGV is horrendously OP and Monarch doesn't work one bit. Just like Myoko/Mogami, Mogami playing a light cruiser role with 15.5cm guns, significantly more DPM, torps, and better conceal fit at higher tiers. Mogami was always a monster at T7, but Myoko's unique features of 20.3cm guns and a beefier armor/health profile just didn't work in T8-10 matchmaking. Likewise, Monarch is just a disappointment against the competition. If it were a T7 ship, the 38.1cm guns could overmatch more ships in its tier range, the 32mm armor and extra survivability that gives Monarch a unique feature in exchange for the downgrades mentioned previously, and KGV would better fit the high tier meta as the superior fire starter.

Edited by awildseaking
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Uh... Huh. Are you really trying to insinuate that KGV as-is is as good as the likes of North Carolina, Bismarck, Amagi, and Richelieu? I really do like the KGV, but... No. Just, no. She's a solid tier 7. Just because Monarch isn't as good tier for tier (I actually feel like she gets a bad rep, having played her myself now) doesn't mean that KGV is as good or better when directly compared on a level playing field.

Like I said, I like my KGV, but I don't EVER want to be staring down a Yamato in it. Musashis are bad enough...

Edit: Also, I know HE spam is the RN battleships' "thing", but what is this obsession people have with dealing damage via fires? Their AP is perfectly fine, your enemy is more worried about penetrating hits than fire damage!

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Just now, Landsraad said:

Uh... Huh. Are you really trying to insinuate that KGV as-is is as good as the likes of North Carolina, Bismarck, Amagi, and Richelieu? I really do like the KGV, but... No. Just, no. She's a solid tier 7. Just because Monarch isn't as good tier for tier (I actually feel like she gets a bad rep, having played her myself now) doesn't mean that KGV is as good or better when directly compared on a level playing field.

Like I said, I like my KGV, but I don't EVER want to be staring down a Yamato in it. Musashis are bad enough...

I'm not sure you realize just how similar KGV and Monarch already are. They have identical HP, belt armor, speed, rudder shift, turning circle and concealment. KGV has 1 more gun and 6% higher fire chance in exchange for smaller guns and slightly lower shell damage. It's not so much that Monarch isn't as good tier for tier; if Monarch were a T7, it would be objectively worse than KGV. There isn't much disagreement that Monarch doesn't fit T8 at all, but simply by having more DPM in exchange for less deck armor, KGV would already outperform Monarch. Would KGV be enough for T8? It might need some buffs, but I was trying to address this issue from a more fundamental design perspective. Monarch's innate design characteristics are underwhelming for T8. KGV's characteristics are not. Myoko/Mogami were not swapped 1:1 with no buffs or nerfs, but fundamentally, another large, tanky cruiser didn't fit at T8 as well as an insanely powerful CL did. I know there's no subclass distinction between KGV and Monarch, but KGV almost plays like a battlecruiser while Monarch plays like a traditional BB. Both KGV and Monarch are unique for T7, but only KGV is unique for T8.

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KGV might work at T8, when you end up in tier 10 with a bunch of 27mm bow cruisers, 32mm bow battleships, destroyers and RN CL which just don't care, the advantage of the 15in really does become less relevant. If WG rebalance some plating to 13mm as on Bayard, Colbert and Smolensk then 15in overmatch will become even less relevant.

While the 15in does have better punch, it also has the worst pen of any T8 battleship gun. It's not a happy combination.

The KGV does not have a late war AA fit which is a potential room for improvement, there's still accuracy room for improvement too.

Overall, T8 KGV seems possible, I didn't think she would be but WG have already gone with 4°/s traverse and 25s reload as well as the crazy HE. 

I don't really like Monarch at T7 though, an alternative there would be preferable.

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1 hour ago, Landsraad said:

Uh... Huh. Are you really trying to insinuate that KGV as-is is as good as the likes of North Carolina, Bismarck, Amagi, and Richelieu?

Yes? KGV was similar in size to North Carolina, had a comparable net weight of shell throw, similar speed, similar AA, similar hull size, similar displacement... Yes, they absolutely were in the same league.

Sorry you can't look past gun size. Seems like a personal hangup.

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7 minutes ago, mofton said:

 I don't really like Monarch at T7 though, an alternative there would be preferable.

Rodney.

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I think the main issue is more that the Monarch is simply bad. Heck, the KGV, Monarch and Lion are basically the same ship just with incremental gun caliber improvements and gimmicks (like the Lion's Superheal). 

I wouldn't mind seeing the Rodney as a T7 (it would literally be a Nelson just with a B hull representing a WW2 AA refit) and the KGV as a tier 8, with the option of mounting EITHER the 10 356mm or 9 380mm guns, like how the Conqueror gets the 419s or the 457s. Give the tier 8 KGV a fictional AA refit so it has a little more HP, 32mm plating and it should do fine, especially if it has the current Monarch configuration as an option anyways. 

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KGV has better HE DPM

KGV
HE penetration: 88mm
2.4RPM * 10 guns * 6100 dmg / 3 = 48,800 DPM

Monarch
HE penetration: 94mm
2.4RPM * 9 guns * 6300 dmg / 3 = 45,360 DPM

Conkek + MBM3
HE penetration: 104mm
2.27RPM * 12 guns * 7200 dmg /3 = 65,454 DPM

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22 minutes ago, Battleship_Elisabeth said:

Yes? KGV was similar in size to North Carolina, had a comparable net weight of shell throw, similar speed, similar AA, similar hull size, similar displacement... Yes, they absolutely were in the same league.

Sorry you can't look past gun size. Seems like a personal hangup.

Yes, she's a similar speed to NC. The slowest tier 8 battleship. Also has worse gun angles, worse armor, and worse penetration. I like KGV, I think she's a powerful tier 7 that can in the right hands take on the tier 8s. But she would still be a really weak tier 8, and Rodney at tier 7? If putting Nelson in the tech tree wouldn't have thrown players progressing through the line for a loop when they got to her they would have already done it, what makes the transition to her sister less jarring? Besides, KGV fits great alongside the likes of Gneisenau and Colorado.

If you're all so willing to buff KGV to make it a tier 8, then why not just buff Monarch by bringing her below-average gunnery into line with the other 15-inchers at tier 8? It seems to make more sense to me than going from a big gun dreadnought, to a smaller gun fast battleship, to an EVEN SMALLER gun fast battleship with the same hull.

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What monarch needs is better gun performance. Right now fighting against a Monarch you don't feel threatened at all. Its AP is probably worst at its tier, it's HE is good, but only slightly better than IJN or US BB HE. One of the problem is that the guns are not consistent, it needs better dispersion. Maybe simply increasing the sigma by 0.1 to 0.2 would suffice. 

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I am still stunned at the idea of Mogami being a tier 7!? Lol I seem to miss all the good stuff! 15x 155mm gun’s vs tier 5 ships... :cap_haloween:

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4 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I am still stunned at the idea of Mogami being a tier 7!? Lol I seem to miss all the good stuff! 15x 155mm gun’s vs tier 5 ships... :cap_haloween:

The old Match Maker at Launch in 2015 was +/-3 tiers.  So imagine some of those matches that could be possible back then.  But there was no tier protection back then, either like there is now.

Arizona vs Wyoming, South Carolina.

Molotov vs Kuma

Amagi vs Kongo

Shokaku (with 3 TBs) vs New York

Iowa vs New Mexico

Nagato vs Myogi

Atago vs Omaha

Etc.

Spoiler

jMCpbxR.jpg

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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28 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

Yes, she's a similar speed to NC. The slowest tier 8 battleship. Also has worse gun angles, worse armor, and worse penetration. I like KGV, I think she's a powerful tier 7 that can in the right hands take on the tier 8s. But she would still be a really weak tier 8, and Rodney at tier 7? If putting Nelson in the tech tree wouldn't have thrown players progressing through the line for a loop when they got to her they would have already done it, what makes the transition to her sister less jarring? Besides, KGV fits great alongside the likes of Gneisenau and Colorado.

If you're all so willing to buff KGV to make it a tier 8, then why not just buff Monarch by bringing her below-average gunnery into line with the other 15-inchers at tier 8? It seems to make more sense to me than going from a big gun dreadnought, to a smaller gun fast battleship, to an EVEN SMALLER gun fast battleship with the same hull.

Yeah I totally agree that KGV is far more suitable for tier VII and Monarch is a more suitable tier VIII and Monarch being a tier VIII seems to fit the upper progression of that line a little better.

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You are not getting the KGV with 356mm guns in Tier VIII with Monarch having 381mm guns in Tier VII.

Nonsensical BB progression.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The old Match Maker at Launch in 2015 was +/-3 tiers.  So imagine some of those matches that could be possible back then.  But there was no tier protection back then, either like there is now.

Arizona vs Wyoming, South Carolina.

Molotov vs Kuma

Amagi vs Kongo

Shokaku (with 3 TBs) vs New York

Iowa vs New Mexico

Etc.

Lol no wonder some of the early to the game players gained Unicom status and later players tend to struggle with WR. If you were able to get certain choice ships ahead of other people you would have had quite the advantage. Although I can’t really complain since with WOT Blitz I can seal club innhigher tiers thanks to all my maxed out crew skills and wide variety of tanks allowing me to maintain a nice edge. And starting to get enough 19 point captains to gain a nice edge in WOWs as well.

What I wish I could have tried in the early WOWs was the V-25 fail divisions in tier X where you could use the best Concealment in the game to punish the tier X ships. Since you could stay unseen and create strings of perma floods with rapid reload Torps.

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3 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol no wonder some of the early to the game players gained Unicom status and later players tend to struggle with WR. If you were able to get certain choice ships ahead of other people you would have had quite the advantage. Although I can’t really complain since with WOT Blitz I can seal club innhigher tiers thanks to all my maxed out crew skills and wide variety of tanks allowing me to maintain a nice edge. And starting to get enough 19 point captains to gain a nice edge in WOWs as well.

What I wish I could have tried in the early WOWs was the V-25 fail divisions in tier X where you could use the best Concealment in the game to punish the tier X ships. Since you could stay unseen and create strings of perma floods with rapid reload Torps.

I thought the ship used for that was Umikaze.

Also, carriers were not mirrored. Midway had jets.

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13 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You are not getting the KGV with 356mm guns in Tier VIII with Monarch having 381mm guns in Tier VII.

Nonsensical BB progression.

Yeah, because the T6 isn't totally a Queen Elizabeth with 381mm guns.

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7 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol no wonder some of the early to the game players gained Unicom status and later players tend to struggle with WR. If you were able to get certain choice ships ahead of other people you would have had quite the advantage. Although I can’t really complain since with WOT Blitz I can seal club innhigher tiers thanks to all my maxed out crew skills and wide variety of tanks allowing me to maintain a nice edge. And starting to get enough 19 point captains to gain a nice edge in WOWs as well.

What I wish I could have tried in the early WOWs was the V-25 fail divisions in tier X where you could use the best Concealment in the game to punish the tier X ships. Since you could stay unseen and create strings of perma floods with rapid reload Torps.

The old +/-3 MM was interesting but it could go against you.

 

I remember feeling very powerful taking Fuso and smashing Wyomings.  Then the next game, my Fuso was staring at Iowa or dealing with Taiho and her 3 TB squads.

I remember at Launch playing my brand new, Stock Colorado and dealing with Yamato.  Back when Yamato had special heals.

 

At Launch, you had new players and the Beta players.  I made it late for Open Beta, but there were still plenty of guys from prior Beta versions that were playing.  Despite my Open Beta experience I was getting slaughtered :Smile_veryhappy:

 

German DDs were pretty late arrivals, they weren't around for the old +/-3 MM days.  It was only really US & IJN ship lines.  Tirpitz came out within 1 month of the game launching so she was around for all that.  RU DDs and German Cruisers were the first two new ship lines and were in for that era of Match Maker.  The game was a lot more simple back then as it was all based around IJN & USN ship balance.  Things got more complicated with newer ship lines being more gimmicky to warrant people trying them out, otherwise they'd just stick with what they were already playing.

 

People used to Fail Div on purpose.  Like a Tier II Umikaze divisioning up with a Tier X buddy.  People would be surprised how powerless Yamato was if there was nobody to help her out against Umikaze.

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8 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Yeah, because the T6 isn't totally a Queen Elizabeth with 381mm guns.

You're still not getting that 356mm BB in Tier VIII :Smile_teethhappy: But keep dreaming, one needs to strive for something I guess!

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From WOWS perspective, the KGV class is a victim of the fact it was actually built AND it was built to meet a specific requirement for the UK AND its armament was built to treaty limits that no one else followed.  In terms of what it was designed to do, it was very good.  WG tried to keep to its attributes for the most part, landing it at T7.  Even at T7, WG felt the need to give it a fast reload and pumped HE fire chances.  Lower caliber guns, but capable of nice DPM.  All said, it is a very good T7 ship when captained properly.

Oh, and I'm an AP guy.  Everyone tends to focus on its HE fire capability.  Those 14 inchers can still get good AP pens.  

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1 hour ago, Soshi_Sone said:

From WOWS perspective, the KGV class is a victim of the fact it was actually built AND it was built to meet a specific requirement for the UK AND its armament was built to treaty limits that no one else followed.  In terms of what it was designed to do, it was very good.  WG tried to keep to its attributes for the most part, landing it at T7.  Even at T7, WG felt the need to give it a fast reload and pumped HE fire chances.  Lower caliber guns, but capable of nice DPM.  All said, it is a very good T7 ship when captained properly.

Oh, and I'm an AP guy.  Everyone tends to focus on its HE fire capability.  Those 14 inchers can still get good AP pens.  

That’s one of the reasons why I love Duke of York, the DOY AP feels superior to the KGV AP for some reason. And I am not the only one that has noticed the difference, at least a few others have voiced similar observations. Between the decent armor of KGV class, the DOY Hydro, good AA, and good AP shells the DOY can make do with a max of 4 heals instead of the typical 5 heals that other BBs max out at.

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The old +/-3 MM was interesting but it could go against you.

 

I remember feeling very powerful taking Fuso and smashing Wyomings.  Then the next game, my Fuso was staring at Iowa or dealing with Taiho and her 3 TB squads.

I remember at Launch playing my brand new, Stock Colorado and dealing with Yamato.  Back when Yamato had special heals.

 

At Launch, you had new players and the Beta players.  I made it late for Open Beta, but there were still plenty of guys from prior Beta versions that were playing.  Despite my Open Beta experience I was getting slaughtered :Smile_veryhappy:

 

German DDs were pretty late arrivals, they weren't around for the old +/-3 MM days.  It was only really US & IJN ship lines.  Tirpitz came out within 1 month of the game launching so she was around for all that.  RU DDs and German Cruisers were the first two new ship lines and were in for that era of Match Maker.  The game was a lot more simple back then as it was all based around IJN & USN ship balance.  Things got more complicated with newer ship lines being more gimmicky to warrant people trying them out, otherwise they'd just stick with what they were already playing.

 

People used to Fail Div on purpose.  Like a Tier II Umikaze divisioning up with a Tier X buddy.  People would be surprised how powerless Yamato was if there was nobody to help her out against Umikaze.

Sounds like absolute chaos. 

I love it. 

 

Also lol @ Umikaze v Yamato - a couple of flooding on the bow and she’d be done!

Edited by UltimateNewbie

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1 hour ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Sounds like absolute chaos. 

I love it. 

 

Also lol @ Umikaze v Yamato - a couple of flooding on the bow and she’d be done!

The game felt like The Wild West in those days.  The "rules" of Match Maker were loose.

 

Umiikaze could just Stealth Torp Yamato.  With the super quick Tier II DD reloads, Yamato would be in big, big trouble.  But people doing such a thing was super, super rare.  Getting past the High Tier CVs, Cruisers, and DD screens to have that kind of 1-on-1 with Yamato or another High Tier BB, the stars had to line up perfectly.  Because you run into a High Tier DD in Umikaze, it wasn't going to go well for you :Smile_trollface:  But it's happened.  I never did this myself, but I've spectated it.

 

We also had crazy maps like this:

Image result for world of warships islands of ice 2015

Would you believe Battleships loved playing and brawling in Cap C?  It was all madness :Smile_veryhappy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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5 hours ago, Battleship_Elisabeth said:

Rodney.

How would you propose to differentiate her from Nelson, which many people ground the heck out of their ships to get the FXP for?

This only makes the problem worse IMO, because then you go from 15 inch to 16 inch.... and then what happens at Tier 8? Back down to 14 inch if you put KGV there, 15 inch if you keep Monarch. 

Vanguard should have been the T8, with insanely good range, sigma and dispersion to differentiate her from all the other 8-gun 15-inch British ships. But I can understand why WG held her out for so long as a premium and gave us the what-if Monarch in her place.

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10 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The game felt like The Wild West in those days.  The "rules" of Match Maker were loose.

 

Umiikaze could just Stealth Torp Yamato.  With the super quick Tier II DD reloads, Yamato would be in big, big trouble.  But people doing such a thing was super, super rare.  Getting past the High Tier CVs, Cruisers, and DD screens to have that kind of 1-on-1 with Yamato or another High Tier BB, the stars had to line up perfectly.  Because you run into a High Tier DD in Umikaze, it wasn't going to go well for you :Smile_trollface:  But it's happened.  I never did this myself, but I've spectated it.

 

We also had crazy maps like this:

Image result for world of warships islands of ice 2015

Would you believe Battleships loved playing and brawling in Cap C?  It was all madness :Smile_veryhappy:

I want that map back. 

Why on earth was it removed? Looks like great fun!

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