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mr_flappypants

So I decided to try out the CV. Here was my experience.

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Final thoughts at the bottom.

Preface

  • I've been playing WOWS since Alpha  Beta? (Forum says beta but I have an alpha patch.. whatever it doesn't matter).
  • I never got into CVs as I prefer surface ships. 
  • My experience in a CV was less than 30 battles in 5 years in the old US tech line up to the Independence (hard to know the exact number since it seems like stats were wiped from removed CV ships? Not sure).  Despite the lack of precision, CV battles represent a fraction of a percent of all the battles I've played.

CV Rework

When the CV rework hit, I dropped out of WOWS while kinks were being worked out.  As someone who evolved into enjoying DD play a bit more than everything else, the CV rework really put a damper on my enjoyment in the game.

Post-CV Rework

Two days ago I was sitting around with a bad sinus infection and was bored.  I decided to try out the CV line when I noticed a ton of ships on sale.  I FXP'd the Lexington (I currently had the Ranger after the CV Rework dealio) and all modules and took it for a spin.  Now, I am very inexperienced in CV play.  However, in the span of about two days and 47 battles, I had most of the XP needed to unlock the Midway.  I managed a 60% W/R in the Lexington (compare that to 51% overall) doing only average damage according to some of these stat sites you see around online. 

Full disclosure #1: I think I FXP'd the last 10K to get the Midway just because I was bored
Full disclosure #2: I used XP and Commander XP flags to speed up the process.

Reflection

I branched into the CV line not only because I was bored, but because I wanted to further my understanding of how they worked.  As a surface ship main, dealing with aircraft has always been a pain since the Post-CV rework.  I'm glad I've played it a bit.  The knowledge I've gained has helped me learn a little bit on how to best counter the CV play.

Here are some thoughts:

  • Playing the CV was easy. I never felt stressed, burdened by the grind, or irritated if I lost a battle.
  • My "Battles Survived" stat is just shy of 33% on average overall.  My CV play in the last two days had me at 73%.
  • While I am nowhere near an expert CV player, I felt it was easy to get into and in many situations, it felt like my contributions were non-trivial to the success of the team.
  • If you understand the very basics of squadron management, survivability was never really an issue for most late game scenarios.  There were maybe a couple where I had a nail-biting experience fending off the enemy team in the late game.  That was pretty fun I guess.
  • The only time I got a bit frustrated was when I finally got in my Midway and met some more skilled CV players who kept dropping fighters in front of me at every turn.
  • Okay the other time I got a bit frustrated was when you'd get that one red team that always managed to stay grouped up.  AA in this situation is devastating.
  • Being able to immediately traverse a map at the beginning of a match is spectacular and kills the boredom of steaming my way up to a cap zone.
  • Not having to worry about being seen or attacked for half a battle is also absolutely lovely.
  • Going from Tier 8 Lexington to Tier 10 Midway was too easy and too fast.  I can't remember the last time a surface ship in those tiers allowed me to advance so quickly!

Some feel bads:

  • I felt bad for the guy that didn't stay with the group.  There's always one to go after.
  • I felt bad for all the players who literally had to stick together like a blob when there were 2 CVs per team (heck even just 1 per team).  That just isn't fun and really hamstrings the roles of the various ships.
  • I felt bad for the BBs who simply couldn't put up a fight.
  • I felt bad for the DDs (not you Grozovoi or Kitakaze) who could only escape being detected by ducking into smoke. It was even worse when I could move on to some other target and come back with a fresh set of rocket planes right as their smoke was about to expire. 
  • I felt bad for the CAs (not you Worcester, Minotaur, Salem... and sometimes Zao) who just couldn't avoid being dive bombed.

Final Thoughts

I can see how people can enjoy this type of gameplay.  I really do...  but it really puts a damper on most of the rest of us non-CV players.  The CV play could be great for a different game but, in my honest opinion, it just doesn't jive with surface ship play very well at all.

Edited by mr_flappypants
- I had the Ranger at the time I decided to get the Lexi
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You sir.... Probally the first CV post that I like.

 

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Good on you for giving it a go, and forming some first hand experiences and thoughts.

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I enjoyed reading your post.  I agree with most of your good and bad points.

I've been playing all the classes and myself personally I haven't had a problem with CV's. 

I don't have any problems if a CV concentrates his attack on me.  I can usually keep him busy for quite a while by managing repairs/heals/fighters.  I'm of the opinion if I can stay alive as long as possible and keep the CV busy he isn't spotting or attack any other member of my team.  I've noticed when this happens my team ends up winning.  It's nice being in a BB and the CV spends about half the match until he is able to kill me.  I feel spotting for your team is a lot better than damage farming while in a CV.

Edited by HeadSplit120
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I found it overall an excellent and much-needed change--but then again, I'm used to unfair stuff and using brainpower, so adapting came easier than for most. A lot of the complaints seem chiefly from players who're not thrilled about being lit when they'd otherwise be concealed, or otherwise failing to adapt.

Admittedly CVs were a bit OP right after rework in skilled hands, but now they're more or less balanced.

All that's left is adjusting soft MM so CVs are not uptiered against OP AA so often, then do fly-by and attack runs, get an idea of whether AA needs tweaking. I'm of the opinion it'd be better to let the AA be flak + continuous damage or just one of those, since flak is what usually kills my planes and it's kinda inaccurate unless flying straight.

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59 minutes ago, mr_flappypants said:

Final thoughts at the bottom.

Preface

  • I've been playing WOWS since Alpha  Beta? (Forum says beta but I have an alpha patch.. whatever it doesn't matter).
  • I never got into CVs as I prefer surface ships. 
  • My experience in a CV was less than 30 battles in 5 years in the old US tech line up to the Independence (hard to know the exact number since it seems like stats were wiped from removed CV ships? Not sure).  Despite the lack of precision, CV battles represent a fraction of a percent of all the battles I've played.

CV Rework

When the CV rework hit, I dropped out of WOWS while kinks were being worked out.  As someone who evolved into enjoying DD play a bit more than everything else, the CV rework really put a damper on my enjoyment in the game.

Post-CV Rework

Two days ago I was sitting around with a bad sinus infection and was bored.  I decided to try out the CV line when I noticed a ton of ships on sale.  I FXP'd the Lexington and all modules and took it for a spin.  Now, I am very inexperienced in CV play.  However, in the span of about two days and 47 battles, I had most of the XP needed to unlock the Midway.  I managed a 60% W/R in the Lexington (compare that to 51% overall) doing only average damage according to some of these stat sites you see around online. 

Full disclosure #1: I think I FXP'd the last 10K to get the Midway just because I was bored
Full disclosure #2: I used XP and Commander XP flags to speed up the process.

Reflection

I branched into the CV line not only because I was bored, but because I wanted to further my understanding of how they worked.  As a surface ship main, dealing with aircraft has always been a pain since the Post-CV rework.  I'm glad I've played it a bit.  The knowledge I've gained has helped me learn a little bit on how to best counter the CV play.

Here are some thoughts:

  • Playing the CV was easy. I never felt stressed, burdened by the grind, or irritated if I lost a battle.
  • My "Battles Survived" stat is just shy of 33% on average overall.  My CV play in the last two days had me at 73%.
  • While I am nowhere near an expert CV player, I felt it was easy to get into and in many situations, it felt like my contributions were non-trivial to the success of the team.
  • If you understand the very basics of squadron management, survivability was never really an issue for most late game scenarios.  There were maybe a couple where I had a nail-biting experience fending off the enemy team in the late game.  That was pretty fun I guess.
  • The only time I got a bit frustrated was when I finally got in my Midway and met some more skilled CV players who kept dropping fighters in front of me at every turn.
  • Okay the other time I got a bit frustrated was when you'd get that one red team that always managed to stay grouped up.  AA in this situation is devastating.
  • Being able to immediately traverse a map at the beginning of a match is spectacular and kills the boredom of steaming my way up to a cap zone.
  • Not having to worry about being seen or attacked for half a battle is also absolutely lovely.
  • Going from Tier 8 Lexington to Tier 10 Midway was too easy and too fast.  I can't remember the last time a surface ship in those tiers allowed me to advance so quickly!

Some feel bads:

  • I felt bad for the guy that didn't stay with the group.  There's always one to go after.
  • I felt bad for all the players who literally had to stick together like a blob when there were 2 CVs per team (heck even just 1 per team).  That just isn't fun and really hamstrings the roles of the various ships.
  • I felt bad for the BBs who simply couldn't put up a fight.
  • I felt bad for the DDs (not you Grozovoi or Kitakaze) who could only escape being detected by ducking into smoke. It was even worse when I could move on to some other target and come back with a fresh set of rocket planes right as their smoke was about to expire. 
  • I felt bad for the CAs (not you Worcester, Minotaur, Salem... and sometimes Zao) who just couldn't avoid being dive bombed.

Final Thoughts

I can see how people can enjoy this type of gameplay.  I really do...  but it really puts a damper on most of the rest of us non-CV players.  The CV play could be great for a different game but, in my honest opinion, it just doesn't jive with surface ship play very well at all.

So a few things you have to keep in mind. As for the Lexington, it is actually one of the strongest CVs for its tier and is arguably stronger than the Midway tier for tier. If you had played the shokoku, I think we would be seeing a very different post, if any post was made. Regarding your winrate, I would argue that you are slowly becoming a better player than a 51%er overall as evidenced by the number of games you played in April. Some people do get better over time if they put in the effort and some well stay consistently bad. From March 27 through May 2nd you played 97 games with a winrate of 59% and the weekend where you grinded your CVs your CV winrate was 57% (counting box Lex and Midway). If anything, I would say your higher than average winrate in the Lexington can be attributed to you understand the flow of the battle more and what targets to focus to get a win. There is a bit more going on here than "CV are too strong, if I can do it anyone can."

 

b1398aeb31cadf19ead1c56b0d9f6baf.png

 

Games played from 3/27 through 5/2:

19e87d92b241cc0ddb32fd5687547047.png

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Interesting. I've been meaning to start up the USN CV line for a bit now. Have the Enterprise and Saipan lying around my port somewhere (got them in a package deal), but I figure I'll start at T4. Maybe once I've finished the USN and RU CL grind.

I've been playing USN CLs a lot, appropriate for the CV MM lately. While I don't think they're OP, I have to ask what they add to the game. Every time a strike comes it, I have to change focus off what I'm doing to deal with it. AA goes off, dodge as able, take a hit or two, and go back to shooting. But then every time a plane flys by I get spotted. And even in a full AA build cruiser, you're not going to knock down a strike before it drops. Seems a little off to me. But the bigger problem is everyone, especially DDs, have to go out of their way to avoid CV planes. But in the end, they don't bring much to gameplay. Everyone basically is fighting as before, and the CVs are a diversion from that. There's no point to fighting against a CV, no satisfaction. Maybe you shoot down a few planes, yay. You don't get hit, great. Compare this to fighting another ship. You are actually fighting, trying to outplay him. Nothing more satisfying than outplaying another ship in a fair fight. But against a CV? Yeah, I shot down all his planes, my AAs great. Or, ouch, got deleted, not really much I could do. Yeah, you can group up, but seriously, that's about as strategic as it gets. So, what's the point?

Bottom line is, CVs are OK (I think the spotting is still a huge issue), but they don't bring much to the overall game. AA is so random and fixed that there's no player intervention involved at all. Basically, they're not fun to play against, whether you're getting pounded or shooting down everything that comes near. And if they're not fun, why are they in the game? Yeah, CV drivers, but how many people are there are really ONLY play CV? We're going to make life a pain for every else just for them?

Look, I really want CVs to be a part of the game. But this current system just isn't working. It's better for sure than the old style. But I think everyone can agree that this system is not ideal. I think the spotting is the biggest issue, the damage is actually reasonably balanced IMO. I'm not sure how to rework spotting. Best I can think of is to have aircraft spot for themselves, but everyone else only gets the position on the minimap, not rendered on screen. That way you get spotted, but don't have to worry about everyone instantly nuking you. But at the same time, that's a massive nerf to CV utility, so hard to say.

Also, I think how AA applies to planes is a bit wonky. Because it applies equally to planes, when a squad comes in on a heavy AA target, most of the planes get hit hard, but they don't drop until after the load is dropped. Then they'll all evaporate, but the strike is already in. I think it would be better to apply it to a single plane, that way the payload dropped gets reduced, instead of everything going down to 1HP, dropping everything, then dying. Also, the scatter effect (maybe less severe) IMO should be reinstated for DF. Because right now AA ships are kind of meh. I get AA should be balanced, but I think if someone invests points in a full AA build, they should basically be untouchable by air. Otherwise, what is the point? I mean, MFCAA is pretty much useless right now. Better AA sector switching speed and efficiency? That's worth the same as CE? Maybe have it automatically follow the attacking squadron, then it's probably worth something. Right now, the AA sector is good if I happen to have it set to the right side, but things happen WAY too fast me switching it to be able to keep up.

That's a lot of thoughts. I think they're valid (especially how CVs aren't fun to play against), but I recognize it's only one side of the coin. But regardless, the CV rework has not reached an ideal state yet, nowhere near it in fact.

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1 hour ago, mr_flappypants said:

Final thoughts at the bottom.

Nice post and all but with few things to notice:

 

You started the CV ride right at T8, and with Lexington, the best tech-tree CV there is, your thoughts about the subject aren't as precise as many others BUT you already saw the bad side of T8 CV, it is either 8 or 80, you either do really good or do nothing, and this is the balancing problem which many players face, it's easy for 11 people to say that the CV in their match was a monster while in another match the 1 player (CV) can't say that he did nothing because of how unbalanced AA is.

 

All in all, it's good to see someone actually trying out the CVs, even though skipping the early tiers or the other tech trees, now I do tell you this, as soon as you hop back to the "surface ships", you'll be a lot better at dodging planes and with map awareness, you'll get a lot better just because you played CV and now know how they work and who they target.

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38 minutes ago, ALROCHA said:

You started the CV ride right at T8, and with Lexington, the best tech-tree CV there is, your thoughts about the subject aren't as precise as many others BUT you already saw the bad side of T8 CV, it is either 8 or 80, you either do really good or do nothing.

 

So far I would say that I had more fun in the Lexington than I am in the Midway.  The gameplay was less stressful more groovy.  Sidenote: I was unaware that a Lexington was an OP CV.  It just happened to be the one that I had.

 

1 hour ago, JustAdapt said:

So a few things you have to keep in mind. As for the Lexington, it is actually one of the strongest CVs for its tier and is arguably stronger than the Midway tier for tier. If you had played the shokoku, I think we would be seeing a very different post, if any post was made. Regarding your winrate, I would argue that you are slowly becoming a better player than a 51%er overall as evidenced by the number of games you played in April. Some people do get better over time if they put in the effort and some well stay consistently bad. From March 27 through May 2nd you played 97 games with a winrate of 59% and the weekend where you grinded your CVs your CV winrate was 57% (counting box Lex and Midway). If anything, I would say your higher than average winrate in the Lexington can be attributed to you understand the flow of the battle more and what targets to focus to get a win. There is a bit more going on here than "CV are too strong, if I can do it anyone can."

 

Some of these ships you point out play similarly to lots of others ships I've played while riding up the tiers.  However, none of these ships are similar to playing a CV.  Pre CV rework the CV playstyle was just a bit beyond my comfort level though I respected those that could do it well.  I always told myself I'd practice it enough at lower tiers to become proficient.  Post CV rework, the CV playstyle was way too comfortable to get into.

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I will keep this short.  I played handful of CV games before the rework, and handful after the rework - and this is all in solo high tier randoms.  I consider CVs fairly well balanced currently, and I find that I can influence match to a similar degree in other classes in compatible tiers.  

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This is the kind of CV post I like. The OP took the time to learn the ins and outs of CV gameplay and then posted his analysis. This is completely unlike most anti-rework posts which are basically froth at the mouth rage fests from people who barely (if at all) touched the new CVs and are basing all their 'knowledge' on a few unicum YouTube vids they came across.

Thank you, sir.

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Although not agreed with all conclusions, I'm so happy that you try CV out before you comment on CV. 

Lexington is a strong T8 CV, even in T10 games, so you might feel more comfort at her compare to many others. Just don't let the survival rate fool you, CV is easy to survive, but sometimes you won't realize your save-my-ship move lost you that battle. 

Have some fun with CV! And I believe you can counter them much more effectively now in all other ships. 

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29 minutes ago, sapient007 said:

Although not agreed with all conclusions, I'm so happy that you try CV out before you comment on CV. 

Lexington is a strong T8 CV, even in T10 games, so you might feel more comfort at her compare to many others. Just don't let the survival rate fool you, CV is easy to survive, but sometimes you won't realize your save-my-ship move lost you that battle. 

Have some fun with CV! And I believe you can counter them much more effectively now in all other ships. 

 

Thank you!  I think the biggest problem I am convinced about is that leveling from Tier 8 to Tier 10 was just way too easy and too fast.  I never had a surface ship I was able to level in two months let alone two days.  CV playstyle really allows for racking up XP.  I did have the credits on hand to buy everything though.

For anyone who hasn't tried the CV in a critical fashion, I (sort of begrudgingly) recommend you do only to learn about how it all works.

Sidenote: I do remember the old days of really good CV players really ruining the experience with multidrops and the like.  That bad taste still persists even after the CV rework... but I just remember it was not as common to encounter that kind of situation.  It was normal to never see a CV back then. I don't know... there are pros and cons to both old and new CV play.  I guess what is frustrating is that a CV can really dictate what I can do as a surface ship: where I can go, what I can do, when I'm forced to use repair party or smoke. And they can continue to do so with impunity.  Sticking with your teammates is pretty much the surefire solution of staying alive from a CV focus but then it feels like I'm having to sail with one propeller tied behind my stern. Its just something I need to learn to deal with.

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tl;dr: CV play is great... for a single player game.

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3 hours ago, mr_flappypants said:

Final Thoughts

I can see how people can enjoy this type of gameplay.  I really do...  but it really puts a damper on most of the rest of us non-CV players.  The CV play could be great for a different game but, in my honest opinion, it just doesn't jive with surface ship play very well at all.

My conclusion after playing  a few games in Furious, Saipan, and Graf Zeppelin is much the same. 

I enjoyed my game experience, but I'm confident that the ships I focused on were unlikely to enjoy theirs. 

3 hours ago, mr_flappypants said:

 

  • Not having to worry about being seen or attacked for half a battle is also absolutely lovely.

Not having to worry than any mistake will result in going back to port really does take the pressure off. I also found that I didn't care as much about wins or losses, because I was usually the last one up and swinging at match end. 

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Ok I am a sandboxer  (co op). I have player over 4 years and still stink at game. So I decided to try cv. Got the Langley (had it when I first tried WOW. My question or thought is why do I get one torpedo per run, I thought I would get 3-4 So the damage I deal is little to none. Are the other planes escorts for the one that is Packing?? or is it just another lets gimp the American line like they did with the cruisers. Being a Retired USN When we were at sea we drilled 6 hours a day at GQ. Sorry off the subject.

 

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23 minutes ago, johnf1951 said:

Ok I am a sandboxer  (co op). I have player over 4 years and still stink at game. So I decided to try cv. Got the Langley (had it when I first tried WOW. My question or thought is why do I get one torpedo per run, I thought I would get 3-4 So the damage I deal is little to none. Are the other planes escorts for the one that is Packing?? or is it just another lets gimp the American line like they did with the cruisers. Being a Retired USN When we were at sea we drilled 6 hours a day at GQ. Sorry off the subject.

 

This changes between the tiers, T4 USN CV only carries 1 torpedo and have 1 attack plane per run while the T10 USN CV carries 2 torpedoes and have 3 attack planes.

 

It's this way because the low tier ships have weak to no AA, so in order to reduce damage they limit the amount of damage you can do, instead of on high tiers where you're limited by the enemy AA.

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5 hours ago, mr_flappypants said:

Final Thoughts

I can see how people can enjoy this type of gameplay.  I really do...  but it really puts a damper on most of the rest of us non-CV players.  The CV play could be great for a different game but, in my honest opinion, it just doesn't jive with surface ship play very well at all.

It's like pushing people down the stairs. Fun to do, not fun for everyone else.

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Here are some thoughts:

  • Playing the CV was easy. I never felt stressed, burdened by the grind, or irritated if I lost a battle.

 

Oh snap. some CV fanbois are gonna go apeshit. 

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4 minutes ago, Steeler_Nation_USA said:

Here are some thoughts:

  • Playing the CV was easy. I never felt stressed, burdened by the grind, or irritated if I lost a battle.

 

Oh snap. some CV fanbois are gonna go apeshit. 

No, hes right.

It's too hard to apply damage over time to a CV...so I'm really only concerned with BB AP hitting my citadel or with a destroyer getting close enough to torpedo me.

Also, there is no active fighter defense, so I don't have to worry about my strike being shot at unless I want it to be.

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Try randomly playing throughout the week -- weekend play is, well it's different.  During the week is a different play style;  most everyone knows which way is up.

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Having played all ships before and after the rework vefore quitting, I couldn't agree more.

I suppose I did find rework CVs a little frustrating because I felt bored which annoyed me while playing a game (I generally only play for fun).

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This is a dangerous trend.

Actually getting first hand information, actually trying something out before posting...  what is this place coming to?

And then following that up with a rational, well reasoned argument that looks at both sides of an issue and states conclusions that are balanced and thoughtful?  Without demands for nerfs or outright removals?  And no ALL CAPS?

Where will it all end?

 

 

 

Nice work, OP.  And for the record there isn't anything you said I disagree with.

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14 hours ago, mr_flappypants said:

I can see how people can enjoy this type of gameplay.  I really do...  but it really puts a damper on most of the rest of us non-CV players. 

Good post.

 

I would contend that there is a widespread failure to adapt (?"deal") with CV and plenty of people would say things are fine, but you have reported your own experiences in a rational manner that is devoid of bile and vitriol, and I can respect your opinions where they do not coincide with mine. :Smile_honoring:

14 hours ago, mr_flappypants said:

Playing the CV was easy. I never felt stressed, burdened by the grind, or irritated if I lost a battle.

This is the most important thing about the rework for me. I can still be frustrated by a loss, but it's fun trying. Especially important when you are grinding your way through the T4's... and if you malposition in those and your flank falls, the inability to make heavy alpha strikes like back in the old days gets you killed real fast. I say this as someone who played both Hosho (a little bit) and Langley (a fair bit more) just before the rework hit, so I know what it was like for both ships beforehand.

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I took advantage of the IJN sale and bought the Hosho just in case I want to try CVs but I got tier 4,5 & 6 DDs too. But then I'm a PvE player so what do I know.   

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