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piecesofpizza

Super Unicum Seeking Advice on CV Counterplay

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Hi all, 

For all of you who don't know me I am a player from ZR that specializes in every surface ship class with a specific glut of my gameplay happening in T10. I have around 12,000 random battles with around 5,300 of those battles being solo. Of the 12,000 random battles, I have around 5,017 battles at T10 with around 2,869 PR.

So why am I bothering to mention this? 

I had two games today after several months of dealing with post rework CVs at high tier that made me ask the question of "What am I doing wrong?". Given the seemingly vocal minority that argues in favor of the current iteration of CVs I figured that I should direct my question to them  in hopes of trying to improve my own gameplay. Ideally I hope to see if they (or anyone else for that matter) have any recommendations on what I am doing wrong in playing against CVs. I want to at least communicate that there is a significant difference between low tier CVs and high tier CVs which dramatically alter the balance considerations (namely in the realms of spotting, aircraft damage, aircraft speed, aircraft health and skill level differentials). Beyond a select few high AA ships at T10 I am seeing barely any difference between a unicum player and an extremely poor player when it comes to countering a CV in a surface ship. Consequently I want to see if there is anything I'm missing in the picture. 

I've attached two detailed report screenshots and the two corresponding replays in hopes that someone has some input that can help make the surface ship vs CV interaction less cancerous. I try to make an effort to continually improve and I want to try and get any feedback that can help me get better as a player when it comes to dealing with high tier CVs that focus you. I'm especially interested in the viewpoints from those who are heavy supporters of the current CV balance and I'll take any feedback I can get.

 

 

20190505_013703_PJSB018-Yamato-1944_23_Shards.wowsreplay

20190505_015906_PJSB018-Yamato-1944_18_NE_ice_islands.wowsreplay

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shot-19.05.05_02.12.18-0495.png

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55 minutes ago, piecesofpizza said:

Hi all, 

For all of you who don't know me I am a player from ZR that specializes in every surface ship class with a specific glut of my gameplay happening in T10. I have around 12,000 random battles with around 5,300 of those battles being solo. Of the 12,000 random battles, I have around 5,017 battles at T10 with around 2,869 PR.

So why am I bothering to mention this? 

I had two games today after several months of dealing with post rework CVs at high tier that made me ask the question of "What am I doing wrong?". Given the seemingly vocal minority that argues in favor of the current iteration of CVs I figured that I should direct my question to them  in hopes of trying to improve my own gameplay. Ideally I hope to see if they (or anyone else for that matter) have any recommendations on what I am doing wrong in playing against CVs. I want to at least communicate that there is a significant difference between low tier CVs and high tier CVs which dramatically alter the balance considerations (namely in the realms of spotting, aircraft damage, aircraft speed, aircraft health and skill level differentials). Beyond a select few high AA ships at T10 I am seeing barely any difference between a unicum player and an extremely poor player when it comes to countering a CV in a surface ship. Consequently I want to see if there is anything I'm missing in the picture. 

I've attached two detailed report screenshots and the two corresponding replays in hopes that someone has some input that can help make the surface ship vs CV interaction less cancerous. I try to make an effort to continually improve and I want to try and get any feedback that can help me get better as a player when it comes to dealing with high tier CVs that focus you. I'm especially interested in the viewpoints from those who are heavy supporters of the current CV balance and I'll take any feedback I can get.

 

 

20190505_013703_PJSB018-Yamato-1944_23_Shards.wowsreplay

20190505_015906_PJSB018-Yamato-1944_18_NE_ice_islands.wowsreplay

shot-19.05.05_02.12.39-0986.png

shot-19.05.05_02.12.18-0495.png

He only thing you’re doing wrong is playing a tier 10 match with cvs in it

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Well I'll take a looksie when I'm back at my PC that has the game on it. In the meantime though, what skills and upgrades are you running? Yamato's AA still has some decent teeth if you gear it right.

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Without seeing the replays and just looking at the results I can say the best thing you can do is cuddle with other ships and hope the AA is sufficient or at least deters strikes.

In the current patch the Yamato is especially vulnerable to carriers and has been since the rework.  With the triple hit of AA rework, plane health related to squadron strength, and how AP bombs interact with said health/strength it's especially bad right now.

You're lacking the overlapping AA fields that once made the Yamato scary to strike against, especially if they were running AA specs.  With how squadrons health needs to be depleted a fair bit before they even lose planes, you are no longer mitigating as much damage before it can reach you.  Since they aren't losing planes they are able to strike more often in a shorter period of time without having to return to ship.  It also takes far shorter of a time to reach you from the ship after they completed an attack run.  All these factors are coming together to make it more difficult to sail the ship in question, and is not helped at how consistent AP bombs are getting citadels now.

Again, haven't watched the replays, but one thing that can help you is ignoring island hugging, despite the ship being so good at it.  You can't shoot at planes over terrain so you are doing even less damage to them.  You also have the unique opportunity as the Yamato to generally being able to shoot at a carrier pretty much no matter where you are if they pop up.  As much as it absolutely pains me to suggest firing at a carrier over surface ships closer to you, a lot of carrier players at later tiers (larger maps more than anything) aren't even moving their ships.

In the end, unfortunately the Yamato just isn't in the best of spots at the moment.  To be transparent, I am not a supporter of the rework.  You also probably know a fair bit of what I've said seeing how you're a stated unicum, but it's for completions sake.

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@piecesofpizza Is it necessary to think that you are playing wrong?

Is a Cruiser playing wrong when your Yamato shell overmatches his armour and wipes him from the map, is a DD player playing wrong when the enemy team plays better and catches him with radar?

I am sure there is the case where you could say 'could they/you have made a better decision?' - with hindsight yes, but who knows what is going to happen in a game before it happens! You make the best choice you can and realise even then, it might not turn out as expected. That's conflict.

The only thing I would argue for is that 'in this GAME' any player who gets into any ship type, has a balanced opportunity in their role to survive and earn credits/xp - as if they chose to play any other ship type. Equal participation and rewards for equal performance is fair.

Concerning CVs, if one ship type suffers more, say you in your Yamato, then I would ask the question 'what is available for you to do - that does not mean you have to be resigned to not being part of the battle'.  There was a similar question where I agreed at low tier BBs are quite slow - so where you would expect them to push and benefit from their team AA - they couldn't keep up; this made them a target through no fault of their own. Of course if a BB chooses to stay back that is their choice.

As WG has made abundantly clear - each ship has a role; so at times they will have to depend on another ship (team mate) to assist - as long as a good game in one ship has an equal outcome  to a good game in another ship - that seems fair. Not every ship is going to be the best at damage, not every one the best at survival, not everyone the best at AA or secondaries etc (some are very close though lol). That is just the nature of this game. :Smile_honoring:

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There is no way to stop a strike from a determined CV player unless you're blobbed up and he doesn't want to expend planes (if he does, he can still strike you) You just have to accept your fate.

source: am CV player

P.S. jUsT aDaPt

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Your screenshots give precious little information about how you actually played in those battles. Did you head off on your own, away from friendly ships? How responsive was your own CV to your requests for fighter cover? Is your ship/captain specced with any AA-centric upgrades/skills, or have you neglected those entirely?

Beyond that, you’re playing a ship designed to exploit the overmatch system in order to negate a great deal of your opponent’s positioning/angling. The fact that she in turn is vulnerable to dedicated air attack isn’t unreasonable on its own, and certainly isn’t “cancerous.” Like a lot of unicum players, you may have gotten comfortable with being good under a very stagnant meta, and are now struggling to adapt to the reality of a changing game. 

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1 minute ago, SkaerKrow said:

Your screenshots give precious little information about how you actually played in those battles. Did you head off on your own, away from friendly ships? How responsive was your own CV to your requests for fighter cover? Is your ship/captain specced with any AA-centric upgrades/skills, or have you neglected those entirely?

Beyond that, you’re playing a ship designed to exploit the overmatch system in order to negate a great deal of your opponent’s positioning/angling. The fact that she in turn is vulnerable to dedicated air attack isn’t unreasonable on its own, and certainly isn’t “cancerous.” Like a lot of unicum players, you may have gotten comfortable with being good under a very stagnant meta, and are now struggling to adapt to the reality of a changing game. 

To be fair he did give replays, even if it'd be time consuming to go through them.

She hasn't always been so vulnerable to air attack, while mediocre without investment, she was quite capable of putting out AA damage with the secondary builds people were running.  Her stark vulnerability has always been the horrendous agility and her "cheeks" on her bow.

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23 minutes ago, SeraphicRadiance said:

There is no way to stop a strike from a determined CV player unless you're blobbed up and he doesn't want to expend planes (if he does, he can still strike you) You just have to accept your fate.

source: am CV player

P.S. jUsT aDaPt

This. Doesn't matter what you do, if the CV player wants you dead, its a matter of how much time he wants to devote to killing you.

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Sorry I cant help I am a potato. if you get a solution could you share it?

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2 hours ago, piecesofpizza said:

Hi all, 

For all of you who don't know me I am a player from ZR that specializes in every surface ship class with a specific glut of my gameplay happening in T10. I have around 12,000 random battles with around 5,300 of those battles being solo. Of the 12,000 random battles, I have around 5,017 battles at T10 with around 2,869 PR.

So why am I bothering to mention this? 

I had two games today after several months of dealing with post rework CVs at high tier that made me ask the question of "What am I doing wrong?". Given the seemingly vocal minority that argues in favor of the current iteration of CVs I figured that I should direct my question to them  in hopes of trying to improve my own gameplay. Ideally I hope to see if they (or anyone else for that matter) have any recommendations on what I am doing wrong in playing against CVs. I want to at least communicate that there is a significant difference between low tier CVs and high tier CVs which dramatically alter the balance considerations (namely in the realms of spotting, aircraft damage, aircraft speed, aircraft health and skill level differentials). Beyond a select few high AA ships at T10 I am seeing barely any difference between a unicum player and an extremely poor player when it comes to countering a CV in a surface ship. Consequently I want to see if there is anything I'm missing in the picture. 

I've attached two detailed report screenshots and the two corresponding replays in hopes that someone has some input that can help make the surface ship vs CV interaction less cancerous. I try to make an effort to continually improve and I want to try and get any feedback that can help me get better as a player when it comes to dealing with high tier CVs that focus you. I'm especially interested in the viewpoints from those who are heavy supporters of the current CV balance and I'll take any feedback I can get.

 

 

20190505_013703_PJSB018-Yamato-1944_23_Shards.wowsreplay

20190505_015906_PJSB018-Yamato-1944_18_NE_ice_islands.wowsreplay

shot-19.05.05_02.12.39-0986.png

shot-19.05.05_02.12.18-0495.png

As a cruiser main I was completely frustrated with the rework. I made so many toxic and hyperbolic post about the need for stronger aa and other such things. But after a few months of this I became exhausted and was tired of seeing all these "I'm leaving or not spending money till cv was gone post." So I did the same thing I did when I had a similar issue with dds. I played them. The idea is relatively simple Play cv's get one to 8, though 10 would be  better. And then see what causes you the greatest grief. I see you use replays so this will help a lot. 

Now from this I was able to figure out a couple of huge issue with not only my build but my consumable usage. Below are my tips.

1. If you have manuel aa and the enemy is coming in with rockets or  torps at about 5km switch it to the opposite side.

2. If you have dfaa wait till you see them drop for an attack.

3. If you have fighters you have to decide how you want to use them as a deterrent or an economic punishment.

4. If you have 6 flak burst or more in any of your auras then the mod 3 aa is worth taking.

5. Always turn in on torp bombers and break. This will negate at least 1 torp maybe 2.

6. Rocket planes are not worth using dfaa on, but OH BOY CAN THEY strip you of your aa but not nearly as efficient as say a cruiser can but decent.

7. if your ship has a huge constant damage for sr say like 700-956(Yammy) if you go full aa then you could easily have a constant damage output of about 1500 with sector focus. This is enough to shread most DB before they can drop as well as throw off the accuracy of said drop.

8.Never travel alone. Cv's are the ultimate stranger danger, stick close to others. It doesnt have to be all 11 other ships but try to move in pacts of 3 or 4 with about 2km between. I know kinda tight, but it is what it is.

9. Worcester is a no go zone for all cv's and is a priority target so stick near yours and protect it. Same can be said about mino and neptune

10. The Hindenberg is a deceptive aa ship. It cant really defend anyone but it self but when done right it can knock out even a full squad of audacious db and tb.

Now there is something you must understand. Very little besides grouping tactics will prevent the initial attack. Lets be honest to do so would be overly punishing to the cv. AA is less about defence, and more about prevention of continued harassment as well as causing cumulative Damage potential reduction for the cv. Once you realize this you will see the new meta differently.

I would suggest if possible trying some t8 cv's its a nice in between that gives you a real understanding of their potential as well as their flaws. After some study and review you can apply what you learned and be better prepared.

FYI this was a My Montana vs a Midway.

 

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4 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

*post*

Sonuva... Of course I'm out of upvotes! Yes, all of this. This is solid advice for anyone and a great way to learn to counter any threat in the game: Play as it and see what makes you the maddest when you do, THAT is your counter.

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1 minute ago, Landsraad said:

Sonuva... Of course I'm out of upvotes! Yes, all of this. This is solid advice for anyone and a great way to learn to counter any threat in the game: Play as it and see what makes you the maddest when you do, THAT is your counter.

And yet you would be surprised how many people downvote this and get toxic and hostile just for suggesting it. These kids and their pixels.

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1 minute ago, The_Chiv said:

And yet you would be surprised how many people downvote this and get toxic and hostile just for suggesting it. These kids and their pixels.

It's the idea of giving ground to the "opposition" it's a foreign concept that you can acknowledge things that don't explicitly support your side of a topic. 

People on both sides will get mad at you saying flak is inconsistent, either rework sided people saying that flak is completely broken because it spawns inside their planes it doesn't need buffs, or anti-rework people in disbelief flak would ever be capable of doing damage.

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@Landsraad, @The_Chiv

I still have an upvote.  Great advice!  That is the first comprehensive list of counterplay I have seen since the CV rework went into effect.  Much appreciated.

I'm so potato, all I would think of was "WANGLE!".  :cap_haloween:

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2 minutes ago, ASoberRussian said:

People on both sides will get mad at you saying flak is inconsistent, either rework sided people saying that flak is completely broken because it spawns inside their planes it doesn't need buffs, or anti-rework people in disbelief flak would ever be capable of doing damage.

"Inconsistent" is pretty much the best word to describe it right now, take it from this carrier champion. One attack I'll be able to sail over a Cleveland without any losses, the next I'll get a whole squadron blasted to kingdom come by a lucky grouping from a Z-52, it's nuts and completely stupid.

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1 minute ago, Landsraad said:

"Inconsistent" is pretty much the best word to describe it right now, take it from this carrier champion. One attack I'll be able to sail over a Cleveland without any losses, the next I'll get a whole squadron blasted to kingdom come by a lucky grouping from a Z-52, it's nuts and completely stupid.

If you think that's bad try playing 10 games in a ship with ~90% flak accuracy and 10 games in a ship with ~60% flak accuracy.  The AA targeting is so bad I can rely more on the lower accuracy for damage than the higher accuracy because it's more likely to disperse the shots outside of the horrendous prediction pattern inside of or right in front of the planes.

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1 minute ago, ASoberRussian said:

It's the idea of giving ground to the "opposition" it's a foreign concept that you can acknowledge things that don't explicitly support your side of a topic. 

People on both sides will get mad at you saying flak is inconsistent, either rework sided people saying that flak is completely broken because it spawns inside their planes it doesn't need buffs, or anti-rework people in disbelief flak would ever be capable of doing damage.

Where I live there is an airshow I go to all the time. They have restored b17, sbd's and a few others. The b17 also travels with some of it war damage parts as well as a nice documentary about the restoration. A german 88 flak which is smaller then most of the naval flak put a hole in the wing the size of a roast turkey. Most flak however was just fragmentation showers. But even a needle travelling at the speed of sound would be lethal.

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52 minutes ago, TwoLate51 said:

Sorry I cant help I am a potato. if you get a solution could you share it?

If you are after a solution where any ship in this game can beat any other just because of what it is (rather than skill), there isn't one. That is why this is a team game where ships have different roles to match their strengths and weaknesses. :Smile_honoring:

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29 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

And yet you would be surprised how many people downvote this and get toxic and hostile just for suggesting it. These kids and their pixels.

I thought it was a great post, gave it a +1.

Then you had to insult in this post and probably wipe any good from your previous post - you might say by calling someone who doesn't agree with you a kid, you yourself have been childish?

(and yes, I guess you could say for saying so - so am I. And so the circle of crap continues!)

I did not give you the downvote btw.

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30 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

And yet you would be surprised how many people downvote this and get toxic and hostile just for suggesting it. These kids and their pixels.

I haven't downvoted it because it contains really good advice.

But many of us refuse to play CVs because we do not like griefing other players, and we know what a negative playing atmosphere CVs create.

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1 minute ago, Taichunger said:

I haven't downvoted it because it contains really good advice.

But many of us refuse to play CVs because we do not like griefing other players, and we know what a negative playing atmosphere CVs create.

Griefing players that the kind of mindset that generally doesn't want cvs in the game at all. Thats part of the problem. The exclusionary elitest mentality has made these forums more combative than the damn game. Though it should be said when subs come into the game well we are gonna see even more of this mentality. None of the DD mafia or Anti cv brigade wants balance. They want genocide of the whole cv class. I'm sorry but such a mentality is repulsive and regressive. 

The irony if those who screamed the loudest played the cv through t8 at least half would temper their bias and arguments. The others would statistically be unmoved. People fear and resist change. Here on the forums though they go beyond that. They ignore facts, logic, and when that doesn't work they turn to petty attacks. It's sickening

CV's didn't create the negative atmosphere more so then stealth fire torps or radar, or Island camping has. What made the atmosphere so negative were people who dont want balance, who refuse to adapt and call for the removal of the class. 

So I guess that means...

giphy.gif

 

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