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Zaydin

When are IJN gunboats getting their badly needed nerfs?

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While I'm sure the DD mafia will not want to hear this, they need it. They have no real glaring weaknesses. They have blisteringly fast rates of fire and innate 1/4 pen. With IFHE, their HE shells can pen 32mm of armor with 100mm guns. Beyond that, they have decent torpedoes and deceptively potent AA for a destroyer line, especially the Kitakaze and Harugumo, which seems inaccurate given how mediocre Japanese AA was during the war compared to US developments.

They either need to lose the innate 1/4 pen or have it reduced or lose their torpedo mounts IMO.

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For a destroyer they are pretty slow, has a bad turn time, not the most durable ships and for the aa being inaccurate thing, since when was this game about being historically accurate?

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40 minutes ago, Zaydin said:

While I'm sure the DD mafia will not want to hear this, they need it. They have no real glaring weaknesses. They have blisteringly fast rates of fire and innate 1/4 pen. With IFHE, their HE shells can pen 32mm of armor with 100mm guns. Beyond that, they have decent torpedoes and deceptively potent AA for a destroyer line, especially the Kitakaze and Harugumo, which seems inaccurate given how mediocre Japanese AA was during the war compared to US developments.

They either need to lose the innate 1/4 pen or have it reduced or lose their torpedo mounts IMO.

When CV is in game, they are nerfed...

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1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

When CV is in game, they are nerfed...

that apply to any DD that is not a grozovoi or z-52.

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Their AA was legendary, in fact.

USN was very impressed with the 100mm/65 guns

They are pretty weak to torps.

 

The main problem with DD play in general is that right now there's this massive skill gap that's wider than the Marinara Trench

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10 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

When CV is in game, they are nerfed...

The tier of the CV comes in here. A tier 10 CV will neuter them but a tier 8 CV's planes will get trashed by their AA. Who is neutering who?

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9 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The tier of the CV comes in here. A tier 10 CV will neuter them but a tier 8 CV's planes will get trashed by their AA. Who is neutering who?

Are you sure?

I totally wrecked an Akizuki with Furious torpedo bombers this week.

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21 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

that apply to any DD that is not a grozovoi or z-52.

Or any American DD from tier 5 upward.

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1 hour ago, Zaydin said:

While I'm sure the DD mafia will not want to hear this, they need it. They have no real glaring weaknesses. They have blisteringly fast rates of fire and innate 1/4 pen. With IFHE, their HE shells can pen 32mm of armor with 100mm guns. Beyond that, they have decent torpedoes and deceptively potent AA for a destroyer line, especially the Kitakaze and Harugumo, which seems inaccurate given how mediocre Japanese AA was during the war compared to US developments.

They either need to lose the innate 1/4 pen or have it reduced or lose their torpedo mounts IMO.

The Japanese gunboats are also very slow, cumbersome, don't have great concealment, take a lot of damage from HE, and absolutely must have a captain with at least 14 points in order to be effective. Those Harugumo games that make you want to take a shower only happen because the player has one of those captains on hand.

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6 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Are you sure?

I totally wrecked an Akizuki with Furious torpedo bombers this week.

Sounds more like the DD was just bad if he got torpedoed by aerial torpedoes.

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Just now, Zaydin said:

Sounds more like the DD was just bad if he got torpedoed by aerial torpedoes.

British aerial torpedoes don't give much time to dodge and Akizuki is slow and cumbersome.

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I'll put it this way.... For the first quarter of 2019, GUNS/BOMBS/Rockets have been the Favorite ordnance for the game.

Out of all the very long list of problematic game mechanics taken to the extreme (Thus creating the balance issues we see present). Current Low caliber DD guns are the product of the above noted complaint. Some DD guns were so weak, not even with IFHE would scratch the paint off some ships.

Before even touching a GUNS/BOMB/Rocket, I suggest revisiting/revamping armor layout of some or all ships class. To me its ridiculous, in the same tier you have

  • BBs taking out a ship with one salvo of AP (DMG potential in one salvo exceeding  ships HP), shouldn't be allowed  in an arcade style game.
  • Smaller ships forced to use  guns because its the only viable ordnance taking over 300 shells to sink one large ship.
  • WIth D/C buffs and nefs to flood DMG. I can see why one would get tired of seeing raining HE shells. Then again no BB wants to sink by torps, its viewed as humiliating. Then OK an annoying HE/fire spam it is

That is my opinion on the matter. I dont see WOWS changing they're favoritism behavior towards all things GUN/BOMBS/ ROCKETS related. Its THAT behavior that is contributing factor leading to the balance issues currently in the game.

No ship class ship should  enter a tier game and feel defeated because the ordnance is lacking for the battle he is in.

Edited by Navalpride33
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1 hour ago, Zaydin said:

They have no real glaring weaknesses.

Let's just take the pinnacle of the line, Harugumo.

-Slower than sassy molasses with abysmal rudder shift and acceleration

-A very big target that can still take full damage from battleship AP unlike any other destroyer other than Khabarovsk

-Worse concealment than any other same tier destroyer other than Khabarovsk and likely, soon, the Kleber

The only strengths of the ship are the firepower and perhaps the torpedoes. At virtually everything else a destroyer wants to do, Harugumo is subpar at best. When talking about the line, all that most people ever want to do is call it overpowered because of those few strengths. Nobody ever wants to actually admit the several significant weaknesses of it that completely balance out the strengths.

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1 minute ago, MrDeaf said:

Are you sure?

I totally wrecked an Akizuki with Furious torpedo bombers this week.

It is both. If they are detected by someone else or are firing their main guns they and almost every other DD are pretty darn easy to attack. However, if you have to find them with no clue to where they are such as a recent last known by the time you figure out where the damned AA is coming from half your squadron is on life support.

TB's are actually safer to use against strong AA because they can come in under the flak and only have to deal with the area damage.

3 minutes ago, Zaydin said:

Sounds more like the DD was just bad if he got torpedoed by aerial torpedoes.

Even highly maneuverable DD's take time to react to rudder inputs and well timed drops can catch them off guard.

 

 

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There was probably a considerable skill gap involved too.

and the majority of DD players these days are super bad.

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41 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

that apply to any DD that is not a grozovoi or z-52.

may want to add fletcher/Kid to the list. :fish_book: 

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considering these were given a very specific and targeted buff recently i'm sure they are about as far down as you can get for a nerf on WGs priority list right now. i'm not sure how they are doing overall compared to the other DDs since that buff but i'm sure some of the stat guys can share it with us.  the only thing you could hope for is that they are way over-performing and need to be tuned down a bit.  

Edited by T_O_dubl_D

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54 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The tier of the CV comes in here. A tier 10 CV will neuter them but a tier 8 CV's planes will get trashed by their AA. Who is neutering who?

Gumber has perfict aa. So no ots not that easy to get in there.

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1 hour ago, Zaydin said:

While I'm sure the DD mafia will not want to hear this, they need it. They have no real glaring weaknesses. They have blisteringly fast rates of fire and innate 1/4 pen. With IFHE, their HE shells can pen 32mm of armor with 100mm guns. Beyond that, they have decent torpedoes and deceptively potent AA for a destroyer line, especially the Kitakaze and Harugumo, which seems inaccurate given how mediocre Japanese AA was during the war compared to US developments.

They either need to lose the innate 1/4 pen or have it reduced or lose their torpedo mounts IMO.

So what you just summed up is that they are balanced.  Nice work!  They are gun boats.  That is their job.

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Take them down to 1/6 HE pen OR remove their torpedoes? Oh yeah, THAT sounds balanced.

My take is that they're definitely really strong right now, HE spam in general is honestly, but that's going to far. I'd say take them down to 1/5 HE pen built-in (that still leaves them with 20mm, IFHE is needed for that serious damage to rack up now), but give them the option to swap out a consumable for DFAA (probably either smoke or TRB).

This means that a dedicated HE-spammer build is more expensive by making IFHE a necessity versus most ships (while still letting them harass most DDs and CLs without it), gives them their historical gimmick of being the IJN's "multi-purpose destroyers" meant to handle AA support duty more effectively at the cost of torps, AND throws a bone to the destroyer community in the DD/CV arms race. Sounds like a win to me.

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1 hour ago, Koogus said:

For a destroyer they are pretty slow, has a bad turn time, not the most durable ships and for the aa being inaccurate thing, since when was this game about being historically accurate?

Uh... I've heard that the Fletcher had a larger turning radius than an NC and SD in real-life.... and it makes sense because the Fletcher is rather long compared to wide.

However, since it is a DD, this needs to be fixed, as well as the crazy DPM. Someone on Reddit suggested to decrease it from 1/4 pen to 1/5 pen and increase their maneuverability. In other words, make them more normal gunboats.

1 hour ago, Cruxdei said:

that apply to any DD that is not a grozovoi or z-52.

Gearing? Well, it depends on the CV, of course, but destroyers, when dodging and turning on/off efficiently, could be a tough target to CVs. I said could be, not always.

1 minute ago, Big_Pimpin said:

So what you just summed up is that they are balanced.  Nice work!  They are gun boats.  That is their job.

And they do it well, possibly too well... It feels like that there's only one or two counters to them, and they are not in the hands of normal players.

 

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1 hour ago, MrDeaf said:

Their AA was legendary, in fact.

USN was very impressed with the 100mm/65 guns

Were they?

The Japanese were very satisfied with that gun, because it was one hell of a leap from their older 127mm weapons.

But the USN being very impressed would be a surprise, given how the 100mm gun does not compare favorably to for example the German 105mm L/65.

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Eventually, when WG finally gets around to the IFHE nerfs and shell caliber changes. They just decided to hold off for a few updates due to the CV overhaul being too hot.

If I'm not misrembering, IFHE will have a steeper penalty (practically -50% Firestarting rate), and shell calibers will be adjusted so that CLs and DDs will have a much harder time farming BBs and CVs.

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Yes let's nerf a ship:

-That still eat BB AP pen

-That is the slowest T10 DD

-That has bad manoeuvrability

-Average AA

-Probably the longest torps CD among other T10

 

Just because there's one thing he can do over other DD, 1 single thing :

-HE pen 32mm of armour.

 

image.png.adb4e3e8100acc2705840af539bfb8a3.png

 

This ship feels so OP wew

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23 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

Were they?

The Japanese were very satisfied with that gun, because it was one hell of a leap from their older 127mm weapons.

But the USN being very impressed would be a surprise, given how the 100mm gun does not compare favorably to for example the German 105mm L/65.

The German 105mm/65 was slow to traverse, slow to train and its triaxial part wasn't particularly reliable due to poor electric shielding from water.
The shells took longer to load, the gun mount wasn't fully enclosed, had slower shells and it doesn't seem like it has VT or manual timed fuse setting.

 

Where as the IJN 100mm/65 was faster at traverse and training, didn't feature an unreliable triaxial mount, in fact it had none.
The shells were faster to load, the mount was fully enclosed, had faster shells and the shells had manually set fuses.

VT fuses would have been better, but the manual fuse was set right before loading and it wasn't hard to compensate from the timing given by the computer.

Edited by MrDeaf

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