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EmojiSupreme

CV balance suggestion

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Remove CV ability to spot with planes. Plane squads can see their enemy but the effectiveness of relaying enemy position is limited by being in the air. Allies will see enemy shapes like in a cyclone until they are in range but not full spotting.

This way CVs can still do damage and harass, but their effectiveness will be limited to giving tactical information rather than ruining any flanks or counteryplay

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How about WG removes the atmosphere from the game. I think that would truly fix and balance the game and also make the community more friendly

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38 minutes ago, EmojiSupreme said:

Remove CV ability to spot with planes. Plane squads can see their enemy but the effectiveness of relaying enemy position is limited by being in the air. Allies will see enemy shapes like in a cyclone until they are in range but not full spotting.

This way CVs can still do damage and harass, but their effectiveness will be limited to giving tactical information rather than ruining any flanks or counteryplay

Just get rid of the spoting  make everybody hunt down their own targets

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I can't see how this is a good idea.  How about we do the same for DD's?  They can spot for themselves but no one else unless they are in range.  Lets apply this to all ships in the game.  I would assume you wouldn't like it nor would any other player.

I want people to share their ideas.  I feel that this suggestion didn't involve any rational thought.  You probably had a bad game that resulted in you being spotted by a CV, maybe focused and killed by the CV, and/or being focused by the enemy team.

I don't agree with your suggestion.  The same players who say they hate CV's are the same ones asking for fighter support and spotting from their own CV.

Edited by HeadSplit120

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This idea was garbage when it was suggested six hours ago and...yep, it's still garbage.

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1 hour ago, HeadSplit120 said:

I can't see how this is a good idea.  How about we do the same for DD's?  They can spot for themselves but no one else unless they are in range.  Lets apply this to all ships in the game.  I would assume you wouldn't like it nor would any other player.

I want people to share their ideas.  I feel that this suggestion didn't involve any rational thought.  You probably had a bad game that resulted in you being spotted by a CV, maybe focused and killed by the CV, and/or being focused by the enemy team.

I don't agree with your suggestion.  The same players who say they hate CV's are the same ones asking for fighter support and spotting from their own CV.

DDs dont move at 150+kts. DDs cant move over/through terrain. DDs have to put their entire HP pool on the line to be in a position to spot aggressively.

I''ve played hundreds of games now since the rework both on CV and against it at all tiers. It wasnt one bad game. Its obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together that a game with a CV versus a game without a CV are drastically different. WG wants to implement a warm-up delay for CVs so people can "get into positions" as though you'll just move to behind an island and stay there all game. Not to mention the question of how is it a "fix" by making the people playing your game just unable to play for a period.

I dont know where the rest of your assumptions come from. I realize CVs arent going anywhere and Im not entirely against them. I am against one single class having an impact on every single game that literally changes the entire way the game is played for every player, increases passivity and camping, and devalues the spotting and support provided by other roles.

The best fix for this is to remove plane spotting for teammates. Your planes can spot for you, and your teammates can see a ship on the radar much like in a cyclone so that people trying to make strategic plays, people trying to cap, and just plain DDs in general dont get immediately solo'd out by the entire enemy team.

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2 hours ago, Koogus said:

How about WG removes the atmosphere from the game. I think that would truly fix and balance the game and also make the community more friendly

How about we remove the atmosphere from your room. Then maybe your mom wouldnt have to plug her nose every time she came in to do your laundry

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1 hour ago, EmojiSupreme said:

How about we remove the atmosphere from your room. Then maybe your mom wouldnt have to plug her nose every time she came in to do your laundry

Ouchys my feelings

(TIL that you can still smell stuff with no atmosphere and that space smells like gunpowder I guess)

236666_1280.jpg

Edited by Koogus
Spelling and grammar garbage
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1 hour ago, EmojiSupreme said:

DDs dont move at 150+kts. DDs cant move over/through terrain. DDs have to put their entire HP pool on the line to be in a position to spot aggressively.

I''ve played hundreds of games now since the rework both on CV and against it at all tiers. It wasnt one bad game. Its obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together that a game with a CV versus a game without a CV are drastically different. WG wants to implement a warm-up delay for CVs so people can "get into positions" as though you'll just move to behind an island and stay there all game. Not to mention the question of how is it a "fix" by making the people playing your game just unable to play for a period.

I dont know where the rest of your assumptions come from. I realize CVs arent going anywhere and Im not entirely against them. I am against one single class having an impact on every single game that literally changes the entire way the game is played for every player, increases passivity and camping, and devalues the spotting and support provided by other roles.

The best fix for this is to remove plane spotting for teammates. Your planes can spot for you, and your teammates can see a ship on the radar much like in a cyclone so that people trying to make strategic plays, people trying to cap, and just plain DDs in general dont get immediately solo'd out by the entire enemy team.

You pointed out differences between a DD and a CV.  I don't see the point you're trying to make.  I could make the same comparison to a BB or a Cruiser and say "BB's don't have turn radius or speed of a DD."  Different classes of ships are different.

CV vs a non CV game are very differently.  It is no different than a match up where you have no radar cruisers on your team vs a team that does or matches where their are no DD's at all.  You will always change your strategy/tactics vs what ship(s) you are going up against either knowingly or subconsciously.

I don't agree with remove spotting from carriers.  It will eliminate teamwork and just force CV's to do nothing but damage farming rather than assisting teammates.  Air detectability is already extremely low for some ships.  DD's should be able to spot more now that the launch delay is coming.  

I'm not against to further changes to CV's.  I'm willing to hear/accept minor changes to the class.  I am against overwhelming sudden changes that will have a huge impact on how CV's operate.  Preventing them from being able to spot for their team is pretty drastic.

Edited by HeadSplit120

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Let's just get rid of cvs. Just saying. 

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2 hours ago, SkaerKrow said:

This idea was garbage when it was suggested six hours ago and...yep, it's still garbage.

In another thread, someone finally admitted what the problem was, and I quote: (from @ruar )

I actually like the idea of having planes in the game, just not when they are attacking my ships. 

Edited by mavfin87

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5 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

In another thread, someone finally admitted what the problem was, and I quote: (from @ruar )

I actually like the idea of having planes in the game, just not when they are attacking my ships. 

Yeah, and you left out all the rest of what I typed and simply picked the part that fit your narrative.  How about you quote the entire section instead.

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1 minute ago, ruar said:

Yeah, and you left out all the rest of what I typed and simply picked the part that fit your narrative.  How about you quote the entire section instead.

What I quoted is the operative part.  The rest is just deflection, imo.  The original post is there for anyone to read, if interested, and I did not claim it as my own words. You got your opportunity to reply here.

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22 minutes ago, pastore123 said:

Let's just get rid of cvs. Just saying. 

You can say it as much as you want.  You know, I know and WG knows... they're not going anywhere.

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10 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

What I quoted is the operative part.  The rest is just deflection, imo.  The original post is there for anyone to read, if interested, and I did not claim it as my own words. You got your opportunity to reply here.

Your opinion doesn't matter for squat when quoting.  Quote the whole thing and let other people form their opinions about what was said.  You do realize it would be very easy to pull some of your sentences and then put whatever spin is desired to them.

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6 minutes ago, HeadSplit120 said:

You can say it as much as you want.  You know, I know and WG knows... they're not going anywhere.

I do say it as much as I want. 
Now you're just pointing out the obvious.

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8 minutes ago, ruar said:

Your opinion doesn't matter for squat when quoting.  Quote the whole thing and let other people form their opinions about what was said.  You do realize it would be very easy to pull some of your sentences and then put whatever spin is desired to them.

You know, if I was going to try to misrepresent you, I wouldn't have put your name on it where you could see it and reply to it.  I'm not some teenage kid.  

If I had chosen the core idea *and* then didn't put your name on it where you could see it, then I can see your gripe.  But I did none of that, and your posts are easy to look up if anyone wants to look at your full text.  So are mine.

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1 hour ago, HeadSplit120 said:

You pointed out differences between a DD and a CV.  I don't see the point you're trying to make.  I could make the same comparison to a BB or a Cruiser and say "BB's don't have turn radius or speed of a DD."  Different classes of ships are different.

CV vs a non CV game are very differently.  It is no different than a match up where you have no radar cruisers on your team vs a team that does or matches where their are no DD's at all.  You will always change your strategy/tactics vs what ship(s) you are going up against either knowingly or subconsciously.

I don't agree with remove spotting from carriers.  It will eliminate teamwork and just force CV's to do nothing but damage farming rather than assisting teammates.  Air detectability is already extremely low for some ships.  DD's should be able to spot more now that the launch delay is coming.  

I'm not against to further changes to CV's.  I'm willing to hear/accept minor changes to the class.  I am against overwhelming sudden changes that will have a huge impact on how CV's operate.  Preventing them from being able to spot for their team is pretty drastic.

Radar comes from ships. Hydro comes from ships. Spotting (other than planes) comes from ships. Every ship that has a radar, hydro, or simply guns has to put itself in harms way at least somewhat in order to guarantee the effectiveness of their radar/hydro/spotting/etc. Ships cant go through terrain at 150+kts. Ships cant die and then respawn immediately and fly to their same location in under 15 seconds across the entire map. If a radar ship makes a ballsy move to radar an important target, theres a good chance he will be at least somewhat punished.

Planes can detect at range, over terrain, 3x as fast as the fastest ship, with next to no punishment and with an infinitely replenishing resource. They are an entirely different aspect and playstyle than every single surface ship. This requires a level of thinking outside of "well, DDs can spot too" or "well, radar can spot too". Nothing a surface ship has allows it to spot an enemy ship for the entire team without putting itself in harms way AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT. Nothing. Not one thing. Smokefiring is easily punishable. Radar is always within the range of the ship using it. Hydro is always within the range of the ship using it. Not to mention that hydro and radar only move at the speed of the ship carrying them. No radar cruiser that I know of can go 150kts over terrain.

Again, and I'll go slowly here for you, Im not saying to remove spotting from planes ENTIRELY. Im saying to change the spotting mechanic so that when a friendly plane spots an enemy ship, on your radar you will see the red outline of the ship and be able to track its movement JUST LIKE IT IS IN CYCLONE.


And Im sorry but did you just insinuate that CVs right now are incentivized to do anything OTHER than damage farm? Spotting is such a minor and inconvenient role for a CV player to undertake right now that you're lucky if your friendly CV does it even by accident, much less on purpose and with intent.


If you combine a spotting mechanic rework with controllable fighter squadrons and some of the other ideas WG had like a plane that is super squishy that can cap points it would make CV more rewarding, more effective, less damage farm focused, and a better all around class for the state of the game.

AS IT STANDS, one single ship per team in a game of 24 that entirely dictates how the game is played from start to finish because of a mechanic as stupid as full team spotting seems like an obvious place to start when considering how to balance CV play in everyone's benefit.


EDIT: Alternatively, add another class of squadron that is a "spotter plane" that is controllable but has no payload. This plane can relay the exact location of enemy ships to the team so if you absolutely must help your team as a CV you can do it, but you sacrifice your ability to deal damage and have to rely on your team to destroy the target. This type of squadron plus the rework to spotting as I've stated above would incentivize more directed play on the part of the CV player, rewarding a good CV for spotting the right target for the team or allowing them to go on deal damage (just as they do for free now) without punishing their target by revealing them entirely to the whole team.

Edited by EmojiSupreme
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7 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

You know, if I was going to try to misrepresent you, I wouldn't have put your name on it where you could see it and reply to it.  I'm not some teenage kid.  

If I had chosen the core idea *and* then didn't put your name on it where you could see it, then I can see your gripe.  But I did none of that, and your posts are easy to look up if anyone wants to look at your full text.  So are mine.

Just quote the whole thing, no need to lie through omission. 

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My point here is that theres obviously a problem with CVs. I believe this problem has more to do with how CVs interact with the strategic play of surface ships than their ability to farm raw damage on a single target. CVs need less of a direct *spot for free and damage for free* role and more of a *select whether you want to outright support, outright damage, map control, etc* which I contend would make CVs 1) More interesting to play, 2) More effectively rewarding for the team for good play, and 3) Less outright frustrating to be with or against in any match.

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1 hour ago, EmojiSupreme said:

Again, and I'll go slowly here for you, Im not saying to remove spotting from planes ENTIRELY. Im saying to change the spotting mechanic so that when a friendly plane spots an enemy ship, on your radar you will see the red outline of the ship and be able to track its movement JUST LIKE IT IS IN CYCLONE.

You don't need to go "slowly" for me.  I understand exactly what you are saying.  Let me go "slowly" for you.  I don't agree with your suggestion.  Got it?

1 hour ago, EmojiSupreme said:

And Im sorry but did you just insinuate that CVs right now are incentivized to do anything OTHER than damage farm? Spotting is such a minor and inconvenient role for a CV player to undertake right now that you're lucky if your friendly CV does it even by accident, much less on purpose and with intent.

I don't think I insinuated anything.  I pretty sure that's exactly what I said.  I've had plenty of games where I didn't do very much damage in my CV due to large number of powerful AA ships but did what I could and at the request of my teammates, spotted for them.  I've had games where my spotting damage was pretty good.  I've noticed that when I play my CV's that if I spend more time spotting than farming damage, my team wins.

 

2 hours ago, EmojiSupreme said:

AS IT STANDS, one single ship per team in a game of 24 that entirely dictates how the game is played from start to finish because of a mechanic as stupid as full team spotting seems like an obvious place to start when considering how to balance CV play in everyone's benefit.

The only time a CV spots the entire team is the start of the match.  They are already changing with the delay at the start of the match for CV's with the next patch.  The only other time we can spot the entire team within a short time is if they lemming and balled up.  In a CV match you'll play differently based on the ship you're in.  The same goes for any ship you go up against based on their strengths and weaknesses.

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4 hours ago, EmojiSupreme said:

DDs dont move at 150+kts. DDs cant move over/through terrain. DDs have to put their entire HP pool on the line to be in a position to spot aggressively.

Oh we're playing this game? Okay, I can play!

Planes do not have access to smoke or benefit from concealment mechanics like smoke and storms. Planes do not have detection ranges below 7.5km. Destroyers can't be reset to their starting position by a single well-aimed flak burst from a higher-tier ship. Destroyers spot using SURFACE detection range, which is much larger than AERIAL detection range. Planes cannot boost for more than about 20 seconds at a time (generally the fast ones only get about 5 seconds). Planes cannot hide from sight behind islands. Destroyers are much smaller and more mobile targets than carriers when discovered. Destroyers have much more powerful torpedoes.

Are we done comparing apples and oranges?

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1 minute ago, Landsraad said:

Oh we're playing this game? Okay, I can play!

Planes do not have access to smoke or benefit from bad weather. Planes do not have detection ranges below 7.5km. Destroyers can't be reset to their starting position by a single well-aimed flak burst from a higher-tier ship. Destroyers spot using SURFACE detection range, which is much larger than AERIAL detection range. Planes cannot boost for more than about 20 seconds at a time (generally the fast ones only get about 5 seconds). And planes cannot hide from sight behind islands. Destroyers are much smaller and more mobile targets than carriers when discovered. Destroyers have much more powerful torpedoes.

Are we done comparing apples and oranges?

If you read the thread, you'll see that the whole reason I was making that comparison was to prove how pointless it is. Someone else brought up DDs as a counter-argument to CV issues, and I was saying much as you are that its useless to compare them because the differences are too severe. Im only trying to look at CV play and how it affects the game as a whole

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12 minutes ago, EmojiSupreme said:

If you read the thread, you'll see that the whole reason I was making that comparison was to prove how pointless it is. Someone else brought up DDs as a counter-argument to CV issues, and I was saying much as you are that its useless to compare them because the differences are too severe. Im only trying to look at CV play and how it affects the game as a whole

You were also saying that destroyers shouldn't get the same treatment as aircraft because of those three things that planes can do that destroyers can't which makes carriers "too good at spotting".

So I gave a list of all the advantages DESTROYERS have over aircraft and carriers in that area (and, admittedly, a couple toward the end in the "oh crap, I've been found out and need to do something about it" area at the end). Maybe I got off track at the end, I'll admit that, but why do carrier aircraft need special spotting nerfs and not a spotting rework overall when planes have all of that working against them in comparison?

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26 minutes ago, HeadSplit120 said:

You don't need to go "slowly" for me.  I understand exactly what you are saying.  Let me go "slowly" for you.  I don't agree with your suggestion.  Got it?

I don't think I insinuated anything.  I pretty sure that's exactly what I said.  I've had plenty of games where I didn't do very much damage in my CV due to large number of powerful AA ships but did what I could and at the request of my teammates, spotted for them.  I've had games where my spotting damage was pretty good.  I've noticed that when I play my CV's that if I spend more time spotting than farming damage, my team wins.

 

The only time a CV spots the entire team is the start of the match.  They are already changing with the delay at the start of the match for CV's with the next patch.  The only other time we can spot the entire team within a short time is if they lemming and balled up.  In a CV match you'll play differently based on the ship you're in.  The same goes for any ship you go up against based on their strengths and weaknesses.

CVs can choose to spot anywhere on the map in less than 20 seconds. This is a problem. The delay is a stupid, shortsighted solution. Is it really a fix to just say "everything will remain the same except we are going to punish players who want to play CV by making them able to play less"?

The underlying issue is that planes have too many tools to be far too effective of spotters and a decent CV captain can entirely remove the possibility for a team to contest caps or make creative flanks, creating stale boring long range play that snowballs quickly out of control when one player dies while the CV player is mostly free to farm damage almost completely unhindered. My solution, again, is that we need to expand our idea of what the CV role can look like to include spotting as part of an arsenal that would also include air to air fighting, capping, and a limited strike capacity. You wanna spot? Use a controllable spotter plane and sacrifice your ability to do damage while you spot. You wanna defend your team? Take a fighter squadron out and target only enemy planes? You wanna simply farm damage on surface ships? Well then you dont also get free spotting at 150kts and no counterplay. 

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