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Aegis270

Potential hotfix for CV gameplay

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I'll save a bit of time and not bother establishing that something needs to give regarding carriers. I'm certainly not saying that what I'm proposing is going to solve everything, but it might help alleviate some of the problems people are having with CVs at the moment.

My suggestion is this. CVs should not be able to spot ships for other surface ships period. They'd still show up on the minimap with a real time position, like ships out of range or in a cyclone, they just wouldn't render for players to shoot at.

Hear me out on this. CV spotting is oppressive because of how uncounterable it is. If a CV wants to spot a target, unless they're in a DD in the middle of a deathcluster of AA ships, that CV will spot it. This is what is causing so many problems for DD captains. However, if we remove this spotting entirely, how fair would it be for all concerned? Pretty fair, to be honest.

BB players largely won't care either way, since for most of them they're spotted every time they fire their guns regardless of what else is in play. It is a nice boon to the stealthier ones, allowing them to reposition a bit easier, but hardly gamebreaking.

Cruiser players again largely won't care. It only benefits those in open water not shooting, which is not the ideal way to play cruisers. Island campers may also benefit, but carrier aircraft have other ways to flush them out of concealment.

However, it will have a quite positive impact for DD/CV interactions, on both sides.

The CV player will still be able to launch attacks on DDs just as they can now, and since the spotting is no longer super oppressive DDs can have their detectability nerfed a bit to allow CVs to find them a bit easier.

The DD player can now come under attack from aircraft without getting blown out of the water by every cruiser in gun range, and thus will be free to start pushing the flanks and contesting the caps as they are used to.

For everyone else, it's still a pretty good deal. Knowing where a DD is is almost as good as spotting him in terms of counterplay. You know what angle the torpedoes are likely to be coming from, and radar cruisers can use the minimap spotting to get into position for spot them properly. You still have plenty of options, you just won't be able to blow him out of the water without thinking about it.

If CVs absolutely require the ability to spot ships, give them a spotting plane consumable. Like with the fighter one, after a short delay a spotting plane would come out and patrol an area, spotting all targets within its view range for everyone. Like the fighter consumable, it would be fairly fragile, but to compensate, it would fly at a high altitude, making it immune to all but the long range auras of ship. This makes it invincible to many destroyers that lack significant long range AA, but fairly weak against cruisers, BBs and some gimmick DDs. This means that instead of an omnipresent threat, CV spotting would be limited and predictable, allowing DDs to avoid the area or work with teammates to shoot down the aircraft.

It's a quick and dirty suggestion, but while WG is busying humming and hawing over every possible nerf and consequence, this felt like a quick and easy change that would largely be positive for everyone.

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If a CV needs to spot a threat that is flanking to protect themselves or their teammates, this would render them unable to coordinate fire on the target. Too many things to do could overload most players like adding the spotting plane for CVs. CVs need to remain somewhat accessible for the average player. Perhaps a small spotting delay like what radar has now might be appropriate. Also, I'm curious, how much experience do you have against CVs as your highest ship is only T5? 

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This would only maximize the passive play. While what you think you are proposing is a DD buff, it is actually a major DD nerf. DDs would be forced to move up and spot for the team because good luck trying to get a CA/BB to move up. DDs who move up to spot will get focused by the CV and killed. Once all of the DDs are dead, there is zero spotting and both teams just sit and run the clock. Nothing happens other than CV strikes and anyone who pushes up just gets focused by the CV and dies.

So NO, what you are proposing is a terrible idea.

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Going to joke on the square:

the new CV lovers keep saying DDs should play as part of the team.  Well this is true of the CV as well.  Maybe all direct plane spotting should be eliminated.  Then, the CV would rely on the team to spot targets unless the CV ship directly spots an enemy.  This would promote team play and be fun and engaging for all

the CV could get radar for the actual ship to detect a hidden DD that is nearby to assist the team in defending it if a DD slips past

Edited by General_WTSherman

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LOLOLOL this is priceless. Take all spotting away from the planes. Briliant! Lets also tske spoting away fro a ship sitting in smoke because you know....your sitting in smoke and should and could never get a target lock without radar.

Lets take spotting away from a ship behind an island because there not spotting it them selves.

So do tell us howbis a planes suppose to see anything. They just fly around and wait for the DD to spot things?

Please just put out the normal post of remove the CV because that what this is. If planes cant see anything then they are removed.

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37 minutes ago, Aegis270 said:

I'll save a bit of time and not bother establishing that something needs to give regarding carriers. I'm certainly not saying that what I'm proposing is going to solve everything, but it might help alleviate some of the problems people are having with CVs at the moment.

My suggestion is this. CVs should not be able to spot ships for other surface ships period. They'd still show up on the minimap with a real time position, like ships out of range or in a cyclone, they just wouldn't render for players to shoot at.

I oppose this idea, but not for the most obvious reason.

I oppose it because there should NOT be a rule that applies only to carrier plane spotting.  If something like this were to come to pass, it should be for ALL ships and ALL planes, with the exception that perhaps a ship's OWN planes should be able to spot for the parent ship.

 

Quote

CV spotting is oppressive because of how uncounterable it is. If a CV wants to spot a target, unless they're in a DD in the middle of a deathcluster of AA ships, that CV will spot it. This is what is causing so many problems for DD captains.

I disagree with your entire premise here.  I don't think that CV spotting is oppressive at all.  To me, it's just CVs doing what CVs SHOULD BE DOING!!!  All this whining and kvetching about CV spotting is nothing but a bunch of nonsense.  A major part of a carrier's job is to spot the enemy!!!

 

Now, mind you, I am not necessarily opposed to having spotted ships only show up on the minimap, but ONLY if it was for ALL ships and ALL planes, and NOT some anti-CV exception.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

LOLOLOL this is priceless. Take all spotting away from the planes. Briliant! Lets also tske spoting away fro a ship sitting in smoke because you know....your sitting in smoke and should and could never get a target lock without radar.

Lets take spotting away from a ship behind an island because there not spotting it them selves.

So do tell us howbis a planes suppose to see anything. They just fly around and wait for the DD to spot things?

Please just put out the normal post of remove the CV because that what this is. If planes cant see anything then they are removed.

I’m actually mocking the CV defenders approach.  “Play as team Blob up. Yada yada...”

I started out announcing my sarcasm this time...

Edited by General_WTSherman

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In reality, 1 CV per side in a match is fine.  I  think a hard cap of 1 CV per side would solve a lot of issues.  I would make the CV MM unlimited wait for a match as well.  This may lengthen the CV wait time if there are a ton of CVs in que, but this isn’t unfair.

I would also support a hard cap of 4 DD’s per side FWIW

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46 minutes ago, General_WTSherman said:

In reality, 1 CV per side in a match is fine.  I  think a hard cap of 1 CV per side would solve a lot of issues.  I would make the CV MM unlimited wait for a match as well.  This may lengthen the CV wait time if there are a ton of CVs in que, but this isn’t unfair.

I would also support a hard cap of 4 DD’s per side FWIW

How is it not unfair? O yea because you don't play them so its fine.

Why not have a mandatory wait of 1 min for everyone?

You can't be serious when you say its fair to make some people wait and others don't.

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1 hour ago, JustAdapt said:

This would only maximize the passive play. While what you think you are proposing is a DD buff, it is actually a major DD nerf. DDs would be forced to move up and spot for the team because good luck trying to get a CA/BB to move up. DDs who move up to spot will get focused by the CV and killed. Once all of the DDs are dead, there is zero spotting and both teams just sit and run the clock. Nothing happens other than CV strikes and anyone who pushes up just gets focused by the CV and dies.

So NO, what you are proposing is a terrible idea.

Passive play is already maximized, especially for DDs.

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3 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

How is it not unfair? O yea because you don't play them so its fine.

Why not have a mandatory wait of 1 min for everyone?

You can't be serious when you say its fair to make some people wait and others don't.

Actually, I said the same rules could apply to dd’s

attitudes like yours towards any changes to the.current cv meta is why I made the initial mocking post

i don’t mind CVs in game in general.  I actually think having one CV per team is good.  I also think the current meta is the problem.  AA and strike power currently scale poorly, and having 2CV PER SIDE is unpleasant .

i also think games with 5-6 DD’s per side are not particularly enjoyable for the non dd’s.

i would say the biggest challenges to reasonable discourse have been the CV “mafia” like you who only care about what is good for a CV

Edited by General_WTSherman

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32 minutes ago, General_WTSherman said:

Actually, I said the same rules could apply to dd’s

attitudes like yours towards any changes to the.current cv meta is why I made the initial mocking post

i don’t mind CVs in game in general.  I actually think having one CV per team is good.  I also think the current meta is the problem.  AA and strike power currently scale poorly, and having 2CV PER SIDE is unpleasant .

i also think games with 5-6 DD’s per side are not particularly enjoyable for the non dd’s.

i would say the biggest challenges to reasonable discourse have been the CV “mafia” like you who only care about what is good for a CV

Oh ho that's funny... CV "mafia"?

:cap_haloween:

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1 hour ago, jags_domain said:

Lets also tske spoting away fro a ship sitting in smoke

First, ships sitting in smoke already cannot spot other ships. Second, learn to spell.

1 hour ago, JustAdapt said:

This would only maximize the passive play. While what you think you are proposing is a DD buff, it is actually a major DD nerf. DDs would be forced to move up and spot for the team because good luck trying to get a CA/BB to move up. DDs who move up to spot will get focused by the CV and killed. Once all of the DDs are dead, there is zero spotting and both teams just sit and run the clock. Nothing happens other than CV strikes and anyone who pushes up just gets focused by the CV and dies.

Nonsense and scare tactics, utter balderdash. But what could we expect from a battleship main who is scared of unspotted DDs?

1 hour ago, Crucis said:

I oppose it because there should NOT be a rule that applies only to carrier plane spotting.  If something like this were to come to pass, it should be for ALL ships and ALL planes, with the exception that perhaps a ship's OWN planes should be able to spot for the parent ship.

I agree with this, but also know it would completely change the meta in which the game is played. Captains of larger ships, which depend on spotting by other ships, are going to freak.

46 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

You can't be serious when you say its fair to make some people wait and others don't.

You can have extended wait times now is you play the wrong tier of ship; try getting a tier 2 battle late at night. The solution to long wait times is to make the game fun for all ship types, not just the largest ones, so more people will play and wait times will drop.

13 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Oh ho that's funny... CV "mafia"?

Yeah, in a way it IS funny, but in a way it's also true. Have a good weekend @Herr_Reitz

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Plane limits, especially in 2/3 CV games. The real Kaga had what, 64 planes? I know this is not real life.  But I’ve shot down 70 planes in one game and still died by CV fire.  

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10 minutes ago, USMC8sux said:

Plane limits, especially in 2/3 CV games. The real Kaga had what, 64 planes? I know this is not real life.  But I’ve shot down 70 planes in one game and still died by CV fire.  

In theory the planes are limited by time—having said that, I shot down 69 planes (my favorite number lol) from a Kaga in my zao.  Most of those were strike planes as I flanked  and was focused by the Kaga for the last 10 minutes of the game

 

had another game yesterday where the entire team shot down 146 planes—the reds had a lex and a ranger.  That seems a little excessive regarding the total number of planes

Edited by General_WTSherman
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3 hours ago, Aegis270 said:

I'll save a bit of time and not bother establishing that something needs to give regarding carriers. I'm certainly not saying that what I'm proposing is going to solve everything, but it might help alleviate some of the problems people are having with CVs at the moment.

My suggestion is this. CVs should not be able to spot ships for other surface ships period. They'd still show up on the minimap with a real time position, like ships out of range or in a cyclone, they just wouldn't render for players to shoot at.

Hear me out on this. CV spotting is oppressive because of how uncounterable it is. If a CV wants to spot a target, unless they're in a DD in the middle of a deathcluster of AA ships, that CV will spot it. This is what is causing so many problems for DD captains. However, if we remove this spotting entirely, how fair would it be for all concerned? Pretty fair, to be honest.

BB players largely won't care either way, since for most of them they're spotted every time they fire their guns regardless of what else is in play. It is a nice boon to the stealthier ones, allowing them to reposition a bit easier, but hardly gamebreaking.

Cruiser players again largely won't care. It only benefits those in open water not shooting, which is not the ideal way to play cruisers. Island campers may also benefit, but carrier aircraft have other ways to flush them out of concealment.

However, it will have a quite positive impact for DD/CV interactions, on both sides.

The CV player will still be able to launch attacks on DDs just as they can now, and since the spotting is no longer super oppressive DDs can have their detectability nerfed a bit to allow CVs to find them a bit easier.

The DD player can now come under attack from aircraft without getting blown out of the water by every cruiser in gun range, and thus will be free to start pushing the flanks and contesting the caps as they are used to.

For everyone else, it's still a pretty good deal. Knowing where a DD is is almost as good as spotting him in terms of counterplay. You know what angle the torpedoes are likely to be coming from, and radar cruisers can use the minimap spotting to get into position for spot them properly. You still have plenty of options, you just won't be able to blow him out of the water without thinking about it.

If CVs absolutely require the ability to spot ships, give them a spotting plane consumable. Like with the fighter one, after a short delay a spotting plane would come out and patrol an area, spotting all targets within its view range for everyone. Like the fighter consumable, it would be fairly fragile, but to compensate, it would fly at a high altitude, making it immune to all but the long range auras of ship. This makes it invincible to many destroyers that lack significant long range AA, but fairly weak against cruisers, BBs and some gimmick DDs. This means that instead of an omnipresent threat, CV spotting would be limited and predictable, allowing DDs to avoid the area or work with teammates to shoot down the aircraft.

It's a quick and dirty suggestion, but while WG is busying humming and hawing over every possible nerf and consequence, this felt like a quick and easy change that would largely be positive for everyone.

How about, no? CVs are not going to be made not CVs because they were strong ships. BBs are oppressive to CAs but we don't make them something different to fight that oppression. DDs have been given more than enough reasonable protection from CVs. Yes, there is a point where you deserve no further protection and you accept a CV can sink your ship. 

The whole DD can see a plane a fraction of it's size but the plane can't see a ship multiples times its size is already borderline embarrassing for a game that claims to be based on WW2 naval combat. You have no inherent entitlement to stealth. You do not have a stealth ability. You have a detection value that happens to be lower than others. That is where it ends.

 

Edited by _Caliph_

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Yes, let’s remove team play from CVs. This idea is stupid, and not particularly original.

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My suggestion to alleviate CV issues (on the forms at least) is to use the search function. Mini-map-only spotting has been suggested over and over, and even directly addressed by WG.

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4 hours ago, Aegis270 said:

I'll save a bit of time and not bother establishing that something needs to give regarding carriers. I'm certainly not saying that what I'm proposing is going to solve everything, but it might help alleviate some of the problems people are having with CVs at the moment.

My suggestion is this. CVs should not be able to spot ships for other surface ships period. They'd still show up on the minimap with a real time position, like ships out of range or in a cyclone, they just wouldn't render for players to shoot at.

Hear me out on this. CV spotting is oppressive because of how uncounterable it is. If a CV wants to spot a target, unless they're in a DD in the middle of a deathcluster of AA ships, that CV will spot it. This is what is causing so many problems for DD captains. However, if we remove this spotting entirely, how fair would it be for all concerned? Pretty fair, to be honest.

BB players largely won't care either way, since for most of them they're spotted every time they fire their guns regardless of what else is in play. It is a nice boon to the stealthier ones, allowing them to reposition a bit easier, but hardly gamebreaking.

Cruiser players again largely won't care. It only benefits those in open water not shooting, which is not the ideal way to play cruisers. Island campers may also benefit, but carrier aircraft have other ways to flush them out of concealment.

However, it will have a quite positive impact for DD/CV interactions, on both sides.

The CV player will still be able to launch attacks on DDs just as they can now, and since the spotting is no longer super oppressive DDs can have their detectability nerfed a bit to allow CVs to find them a bit easier.

The DD player can now come under attack from aircraft without getting blown out of the water by every cruiser in gun range, and thus will be free to start pushing the flanks and contesting the caps as they are used to.

For everyone else, it's still a pretty good deal. Knowing where a DD is is almost as good as spotting him in terms of counterplay. You know what angle the torpedoes are likely to be coming from, and radar cruisers can use the minimap spotting to get into position for spot them properly. You still have plenty of options, you just won't be able to blow him out of the water without thinking about it.

If CVs absolutely require the ability to spot ships, give them a spotting plane consumable. Like with the fighter one, after a short delay a spotting plane would come out and patrol an area, spotting all targets within its view range for everyone. Like the fighter consumable, it would be fairly fragile, but to compensate, it would fly at a high altitude, making it immune to all but the long range auras of ship. This makes it invincible to many destroyers that lack significant long range AA, but fairly weak against cruisers, BBs and some gimmick DDs. This means that instead of an omnipresent threat, CV spotting would be limited and predictable, allowing DDs to avoid the area or work with teammates to shoot down the aircraft.

It's a quick and dirty suggestion, but while WG is busying humming and hawing over every possible nerf and consequence, this felt like a quick and easy change that would largely be positive for everyone.

That would help but a No CV queue would be a much better hotfix.

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1 hour ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

That would help but a No CV queue would be a much better hotfix.

 

1 hour ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

That would help but a No CV queue would be a much better hotfix.

You may as well remove the CV class then—there wouldn’t be enough of the other classes for MM in the CV que

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In theory he is 100% accurate.

planes spot ships, radio back location. (put it on the mini map)

 

Try playing Neighbors with twin tier 8 Cv's in a 7-9 match. NC and Musashi's  shelling enemy spawn less than one minute in the game.

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Maybe this, quit [edited] about CV and play the game!!! CV are no more over powering (try hitting those pesky DD with bombs (hard) and rockets hardly slow em down).....as for spotting, it doesn't last long if you are with other ships. If you are all alone and out in space, who's fault is that?

With one per game in tier ten, CV are really not a problem, lower tier CV's have been neutered to almost useless against same tier ships!

Balance right now is almost as good as it will get.

(some cv drivers can control a match....that has always been the case....and there are folks that in any ship will be much better than most...)

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45 minutes ago, General_WTSherman said:

You may as well remove the CV class then—there wouldn’t be enough of the other classes for MM in the CV que

You're right, no one would choose to play a CV mode in a surface ship.  Who'd willing to make themselves a target for CVs.  You'd think that would say everything about the state of CVs.

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1 hour ago, General_WTSherman said:

 

You may as well remove the CV class then—there wouldn’t be enough of the other classes for MM in the CV que

Drop the CV limit. You would have 5 CVs and 5 AA cruisers per side which would be far more realistic.

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1 hour ago, Slimeball91 said:

You're right, no one would choose to play a CV mode in a surface ship.  Who'd willing to make themselves a target for CVs.  You'd think that would say everything about the state of CVs.

Minotaurs would still play, probably some Woosters.

If no one would willingly play in a CV game how much longer do you think they will play a game where they are forced to play with CVs.

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