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Operation Aegis' beginning need to be changed

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This op sucks for battleships, like alot. It feel like every cruiser had a 70% fire chance or more. No matter where I go in the beginning I get focus fired and by 3 mins in I've been sunk by 8 or more fires, or have lost enough health I can no longer be useful to the team for the rest of the game. Would like if either the spawns a cruisers were maybe -1 or -2. Or if the bots would disperse their fire and not focus one ship down endlessly. Any thoughts? Because I've played this mission a dozen or more times, and I'm the only one who ever gets shot in the beginning, no matter my position, no matter my class.

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Not so. I play BBs in Aegis with no issues.

Do they target BBs? Yes, then you tank. That's what you are there for. Cruisers are easy cits sailing by. You can wreck the Fuso from a distance if you know how to shoot.

Maybe you should try playing in Hoperations Discord. All the Ops experts are there and we regularly get 5 stars in any op.

Every op has a set of rules of what you should and should not do. Once the team learns it and sticks t the script it is easy.

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BBs in Aegis has a higher priority of being targeted by the bots even more so than the DDs.

Therefore to "tank" for the team is rather detrimental to do around the start if in a bad position of not being able to disengage in a short manner. You need that HP for later when more waves are spawning.

Limit exposure for the 1st and especially the 2nd wave of enemy ships cause if they all target one BB then that BB will either be left with very little health or just burn to the ground. Stick somewhat close by with the allied Schors and pick off the cruisers that comes up.

Don't charge towards the enemy cruisers that spawns in the 2nd wave and the ones with the convoys unless you want to suicide for nothing.

Once the convoys are free, you can charge all you want towards the fuso and enemy cruisers at the north east corner and go guns blazing with some epic torp beats.

With that said don't just completely avoid the 1st and 2nd wave of ships by running down south right away. Keep a safe distance where you can avoid being spammed by 5+ enemy ships.

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18 minutes ago, Vader_Sama said:

BBs in Aegis has a higher priority of being targeted by the bots even more so than the DDs.

Therefore to "tank" for the team is rather detrimental to do around the start if in a bad position of not being able to disengage in a short manner. You need that HP for later when more waves are spawning.

Limit exposure for the 1st and especially the 2nd wave of enemy ships cause if they all target one BB then that BB will either be left with very little health or just burn to the ground. Stick somewhat close by with the allied Schors and pick off the cruisers that comes up.

Don't charge towards the enemy cruisers that spawns in the 2nd wave and the ones with the convoys unless you want to suicide for nothing.

Once the convoys are free, you can charge all you want towards the fuso and enemy cruisers at the north east corner and go guns blazing with some epic torp beats.

With that said don't just completely avoid the 1st and 2nd wave of ships by running down south right away. Keep a safe distance where you can avoid being spammed by 5+ enemy ships.

This is excellent advise.  It is how I run my battleships in Aegis and I run exclusively battleships (Warspite and Arizona).  I would like to add that after the transports have been rescued and are enroute to the exit, it is YOUR JOB to tank damage from the enemy.  To your death if need be.  Every shot that hits you, doesn't hit a transport.

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2 hours ago, Captain_Slattery said:

This is excellent advise.  It is how I run my battleships in Aegis and I run exclusively battleships (Warspite and Arizona).  I would like to add that after the transports have been rescued and are enroute to the exit, it is YOUR JOB to tank damage from the enemy.  To your death if need be.  Every shot that hits you, doesn't hit a transport.

You're wrong.  In that last part of the battle, your job as a BB is to deliver the butt whupping on the enemy BBs, specifically, the Fuso that shows up at around A7 or A8 and the Kongo/Ishizuchi pair that shows up around A6.

I was playing my Izmail last night in this operation and did 252k damage with 11 citadels.  I smashed basically everything in sight, including the Fuso and Ishizuchi, and to a lesser degree, the Kongo.

 

2 hours ago, Vader_Sama said:

BBs in Aegis has a higher priority of being targeted by the bots even more so than the DDs.

Therefore to "tank" for the team is rather detrimental to do around the start if in a bad position of not being able to disengage in a short manner. You need that HP for later when more waves are spawning.

Limit exposure for the 1st and especially the 2nd wave of enemy ships cause if they all target one BB then that BB will either be left with very little health or just burn to the ground. Stick somewhat close by with the allied Schors and pick off the cruisers that comes up.

Don't charge towards the enemy cruisers that spawns in the 2nd wave and the ones with the convoys unless you want to suicide for nothing.

Once the convoys are free, you can charge all you want towards the fuso and enemy cruisers at the north east corner and go guns blazing with some epic torp beats.

With that said don't just completely avoid the 1st and 2nd wave of ships by running down south right away. Keep a safe distance where you can avoid being spammed by 5+ enemy ships.

 

 

I profoundly believe that all of the ships should get to the eastern half of the map, ASAP in this op, particularly after finishing off the first wave.  Getting to the eastern half allows the player team to limit the number of enemy ships in the second wave that can shoot at you, while your team can hammer the  bot ships as they pass, one by one, through the channel from west to east.  It also helps if you have a couple of ships get further east so that you can get good flanking shots on the  3rd wave of enemy ships (i.e. the ones directly guarding the captured transports).

As for the bot ships in the NE, I don't like getting too close to them because they will be spamming torpedoes.  Better to keep the range somewhat open to limit the danger of torpedo hits.  I also like sending a BB or 2 towards the Kongo and Ishizuchi, while shooting at the Fuso.  I charge the 2 BBs bow on to limit what they can do to my BB so that I can focus the Fuso.  I will say that trying to deal with all 3 of these bot BBs is tricky because closing on the two means that you're probably exposing yourself to the Fuso.

 

Another point regarding BBs in Aegis.  I don't like using BBs that have either overly large guns for tier 6 or BBs that have very high shell velocity.  These BBs seem to generate a lot of overpens on the bot cruisers, which can be frustrating.  And I find that I have more success with BBs that have more average sized guns and/or average shell velocities for tier 6, because it just feels like I get fewer overpens and more solid hits on the bot cruisers.  I don't worry that much about the bot BBs in this regard because none of them are so heavily armored that I feel a need for bigger, more powerfully gunned BBs to handle them.  "Average" gunned, tier 6 BBs do just fine vs the bot BBs in this operation.

 

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2 hours ago, Vader_Sama said:

BBs in Aegis has a higher priority of being targeted by the bots even more so than the DDs.

Therefore to "tank" for the team is rather detrimental to do around the start if in a bad position of not being able to disengage in a short manner. You need that HP for later when more waves are spawning.

Limit exposure for the 1st and especially the 2nd wave of enemy ships cause if they all target one BB then that BB will either be left with very little health or just burn to the ground. Stick somewhat close by with the allied Schors and pick off the cruisers that comes up.

Don't charge towards the enemy cruisers that spawns in the 2nd wave and the ones with the convoys unless you want to suicide for nothing.

Once the convoys are free, you can charge all you want towards the fuso and enemy cruisers at the north east corner and go guns blazing with some epic torp beats.

With that said don't just completely avoid the 1st and 2nd wave of ships by running down south right away. Keep a safe distance where you can avoid being spammed by 5+ enemy ships.

Yes and no to what you have already said.  Tanking isn't detrimental at any time.

 

I think what it always boils down to is teamwork,  and what you encounter in PUGS.  This is where problems can occur for BBs.

 

I pretty much always follow the path of the bot DD.  North of that middle'ish island.  The issue is when your entire team squirms down south of the island.  They are now blocking themselves, or severely limiting their firing options.  As a BB you are now 1vs5 and sometimes you will survive through this with the little help given.  But as the second wave from the Northwest appears,  your team is now the opposite side of the rock and blocked themselves off from this wave.  And the BB now faces a second 1vs5 situation and you are probably sunk.

 

Anyhow you can't really teach/give suggestions properly to someone you just matched with how to play their ship.  But if the cruisers and dds, learn to take advantage of the Bot dd's first smoke,  you are in a great spot to dps and the tanking BBs won't be under fire for long.

 

Take note if you are learning to play this scenario,  smoke equipped ships are freakin powerful in Aegis once you learn the enemy spawns and good smoke locations.

 

A cruiser in smoke,  can fire with impunity and landing 10-15 citadels in the first 5 minutes of the match is "nice".  And I also recently started levelling up Fushun and was surprised to get citadels here and there.        

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PvE is starting to suck for BBs period. Played a few rounds last night, nothing but cruisers, carriers and destroyers. 

People will hate the thought, but it seems BBs need a buff to remain competitive in the new faster paced games. 

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When I play battleship in that scenario, I usually do something like this.

shot-19_05.04_21_56.04-0537.thumb.jpg.043eb6fc11910cf02ba65b86c385667d.jpg

1. Bring all guns to port side. You can keep them on this side for the entire  mission. Engage the first group. All the cruisers will be focusing on you at this point.

2. Get through the gap as quickly as possible while firing at the north-west group. They too will be burning you until you break line of sight. Heal up and finish them off on the other side.

3. Sink all the convoy escorts. It gets easier at this point as the Shchors and Mahan should be taking some of the focus off you.

4. Take shots at the Kongo and Ishizuchi. A cruiser or destroyer should be going for them, so they're not really your concern. You're just softening them up until you're in position for the next step.

5. When the Fuso is 12-13 km from you (... and you've kept your guns on the port side since the first step, right?) turn around and wreck its broadside. Try to take a few cruisers down too, but only after the 3 battleships for secondary objective are dead.

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Honestly, I never take those paths with BB - I always tend to head north, but slowly; that keeps me with broadside enemies in the first three waves.  then I move to engage the Kongou and Fuso.  By that point, all going well, I aim for the Fusou and then whatever targets of opportunity there are.  Though, Arizona is the only BB I play it with, so I have my own opinions on what is ideal

At the start of the game, I turn hard to port and bring engines up to 1/4, sometimes flipping back and forth between that and zero to keep speed low at first.  I bring all guns to starboard.   I take the opportunity to put two to three salvos into the first wave (sometimes the CV delays the second wave if they get a good torp launch or three and scatter them).  I also use the spotter from the time I can see the first ship in the first wave so I can line up a good shot - that's up to you and your preferences on spotter.  At that point, I angle towards the north and, staying near the western islands, I fire at targets with high health - it's very easy to chunk them, so I leave the ones with high damage to allies to take out.  

Once you start taking heavy fire, turn away and try to put distance.  This is where you need an ally with high health - another BB or cruiser (the heavy cruisers are ideal here), that, or a DD that can sneak closer and scare them into targeting.  force the AI to constantly shift targets by you as the BB turning away and then back towards, your DD ally smoking once they start targeting him, your cruisers also drawing fire, etc.  You're going to get heavily dinged up, but if you are running premium consumables then you come out pretty decent.  

Once second wave is taken care of, immediately head to the north (I usually try to pass through the gap between the second and third island from the north).  Use this time to attack a few broadside cruisers, then rotate your guns to port to engage the Kongou and Itchy.  If you have a decent amount of health left, you'll usually do fine against them.  If you have a lot of health left, don't even dodge much - just angle and charge.  You need to head east ASAP.  If you're far enough forward and your spawns are lucky, you'll also draw fire from the Fusou instead of having them take potshots at transports or cruisers.

-

I prefer this route to the eastern route as it gives me more targets that are in a better firing position.  If you're playing a fast BB vs the standards, you probably will be able to burst out the other side of the line and get broadsides from the eastern flank, but that's just my preference.

However, this is a lot harder to do nowadays than it used to  - I think the AI changes make it much harder to survive puree solo, and I would not recommend this on a solo party.  If you have one teammate that is willing to split being targeted at the start, it can go pretty well - as the BB, you chunk the enemy cruisers while your ally/allies finish off the remaining cruisers on low health.  

Mind, I run my Arizona with near maximum fire protection, and I even have the extension of the DC party on her, so I can tank a lot of damage for a while.  The captain I use on her is a 19 point captain, but he's specced for secondaries, not fire prevention.  If you have a BB captain that is maximum specced for fire prevention, this becomes a lot easier (but note the cruisers can and will chunk you for big damage - and you have to be on the lookout for torps.  This is why I like Zona, as she's good at dodging them as well).  

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4 hours ago, PtooieBoat said:

Yes and no to what you have already said.  Tanking isn't detrimental at any time. 

It is at the start of the game, your health is much more valuable at the last part than the first two waves. If you're taking fire from more than 5  ships then you're doing unnecessary tanking.

You're not tanking in a meaningful way if you're losing more health than the deaths of the enemy ships at the start no less.

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20 minutes ago, Vader_Sama said:

It is at the start of the game, your health is much more valuable at the last part than the first two waves. If you're taking fire from more than 5  ships then you're doing unnecessary tanking.

You're not tanking in a meaningful way if you're losing more health than the deaths of the enemy ships at the start no less.

Heh,  not sure if we are at a glass half full / half empty stance here.  :P    That somewhere we are agreeing,  but we think we aren't.

 

I like @grumpymunky map and that is similar to what I do.

 

To reiterate from what I posted before,   you are tanking 5 ships only when the other 6 ships in your team cower south behind the island.  They aren't shooting nothing.  That is the failure in the chain.  If I lemming with the fail train and just sail south,  we aren't getting much done to the first wave before the second wave spawns.    A little exaggeration, but a 7vs5 at the start becomes a 7vs10 even though inferior tiered ships.  It is building/working with a poor foundation that might just lead you to a fail in the end anyways.

 

In the end,  I'm sure you have your way that works and I have mine.  I definitely need to post a recent game, where I learned something new about Aegis and how to salvage a victory from a very poor team.   But it'll have to be after work.  

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6 hours ago, red_crested_ibis said:

I prefer this route to the eastern route as it gives me more targets that are in a better firing position.

It certainly does. My mapped path ends up shooting at a lot of badly angled targets around the middle, but it ensures I'm able to blap the Fuso which has caused me more lost stars than anything else.

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9 minutes ago, grumpymunky said:

It certainly does. My mapped path ends up shooting at a lot of badly angled targets around the middle, but it ensures I'm able to blap the Fuso which has caused me more lost stars than anything else.

Frankly, I think the best result is if one BB and a cruiser (preferably a heavy, Pensa/Aoba/Molly if they're good) head north to strike the second wave, while the other four members (the faster BB, the other cruisers/destroyers) head east, in the general route your map shows.  That allows for the first wave to be attacked by the light cruisers which works better as that wave often has a preponderance of DDs, while the second wave is taken care of the heavies that can reliably cit from range and while angled.

Then, when the third wave comes down, you should by that point have the second wave mostly mopped up, and both sides can attack the third wave from the flanks.  At that point, the western group moves to engage Kongou/Itchy, while the Eastern group moves to engage the Fusou and friends.

Edited by red_crested_ibis

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Playing Battleship in this operation is purely cancerous. They've obviously shifted to make them worthless to promote HE vomiting cruisers but this is where it's most obvious.

If the first shell doesnt set you on fire, the second will. You let it burn out and take thousands of damage, or you repair it, and the next shell to hit you after the cool down sets you on fire. It's [edited]idiotic.

 

You can only heal that crapso many times, meanwhile the laser accurate AI is raining fires and citadels like it's nothing. Other operations at least have some cover, virtually no matter which way you go you're in the open or you;re going behind the islands and cant hit anything. Poorly designed map, asinine attempt at 'balancing' the AI to compete.

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So I gained a new perspective just a few days ago.  Nothing innovative or cool..  It has always been there but we don't look at it this way usually. 

I think most of us default to how best to attack all the waves in this mission.  How you position, which specific path to take and timing as well.  Also what allies you may have.  We always look to the optimal, most effective and safe way to take the fight to the enemy.

 

What if you don't fight,  because you can't?!       And if you reduce the Scenario to just its basic end instruction,  which is get a single allied transport to cross that magic pixel line.  

 

Looking at this match as a whole,  I've never had an Aegis game like this.  It was a pretty good start already for me.   AND then 9mins into Aegis my allies all vanished except for our CV.

The sunk enemy ships count may not look normal to you,  but that is because the Ally bots did what work they could,  or just lucky with kill secures.

So our transports have been reclaimed and turning to exit.   Just me and an ally CV and at this point I'm just trying to make sense of what to do.  The CV so far hasn't shown the experience or skills to do anything aside from a holiday cruise down south...  I expected no help there.

As a player,  you don't want to give up and always push to put up a good fight/give your all.   But with the knowledge of the enemies yet to spawn,  the insurmountable odds,  I wasn't going to fight here.  It was a shock, a sobering one that in all ways told me to continue fighting would ensure defeat.   I would just make it easier and quicker for them to get it over with.   

It was just one Royal Navy cruiser, against 8+ enemy ships.   It forced me to think of an unorthodox tactic.  So some luck here,  right place, wrong time,  with the right ship(my Leander).

I am aware that drawing fire is pretty effective in general when trying to keep all transports alive in Aegis.  So I was going to run silent for the next 7mins.  I would sneak the convoy as close as I can and be prepared to take shells for them and hopefully cover them with smoke through to the finish line.

 

Somehow it came together, and the convoy got away with 4 Stars.  I did not survive however.  I hung around long enough to get the job done.  (I'll put a screenshot below and a few more result pictures in the spoiler.)

(with this newfound knowledge,  managed to convince a DD in a game later that day,  to salvage a win from another poor team turn out.  If there are no allies near the transports or engaging the red ships,  the enemy bot fleet usually doesn't have trouble sniping them down one by one.)

 

shot-19_05.02_09_24.30-0072.thumb.jpg.a849132c5a5d07a37ba22cee749f543e.jpg

Spoiler


shot-19_05.02_09_25.03-0850.thumb.jpg.d17deee1ddfc07da786140707405c864.jpgshot-19_05.02_09_25.15-0587.thumb.jpg.160e254cadb55626cd0cfe11dd9d8020.jpgshot-19_05.02_09_25_25-0237.thumb.jpg.9be5bf983fc24bc30a21be7840f23854.jpg

 

 

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18 hours ago, Gen_Saris said:

PvE is starting to suck for BBs period. Played a few rounds last night, nothing but cruisers, carriers and destroyers. 

People will hate the thought, but it seems BBs need a buff to remain competitive in the new faster paced games. 

Battleships are EZ Mode for PVE.  They don't need help.

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4 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Battleships are EZ Mode for PVE.  They don't need help.

Considering many PvE battles are over before a slow moving and slow firing BB can get in position and fire a few salvos I question if you are playing the same game that I am. 

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13 hours ago, Gen_Saris said:

Considering many PvE battles are over before a slow moving and slow firing BB can get in position and fire a few salvos I question if you are playing the same game that I am. 

Have you met our Lord and Saviors Dunkerque, PEF and North Carolina?

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22 hours ago, Gen_Saris said:

Considering many PvE battles are over before a slow moving and slow firing BB can get in position and fire a few salvos I question if you are playing the same game that I am. 

The only ones that have a problem are the 21kt BBs.  Last I looked, most of the BBs in this game go faster than 21kts, even in mid tiers.

You are playing the same game I play.  But I do question what you're doing with those Battleships.

Battleships are EZ Mode.

Xd9fPhu.png

Sorry, those were my PVP ship splits.  Below are my Co-op ship splits.

Spoiler

 

uDy78bP.jpg

Battleships are EZ Mode.

Matter of fact, for the purpose of this thread, which is Operation Aegis, Cruisers and Destroyers have big problems in staying power.  If you get jacked up and die early in a BB in Aegis, that is wholly player error.  BBs carry in Aegis.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 5/4/2019 at 6:16 AM, PtooieBoat said:

A cruiser in smoke,  can fire with impunity and landing 10-15 citadels in the first 5 minutes of the match is "nice".  And I also recently started levelling up Fushun and was surprised to get citadels here and there.        

I talk about how to run a destroyer in Aegis in this video. It is very easy to rack up citadels in a Gnevy/Fushun/Anshan in this operations.

9 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Matter of fact, for the purpose of this thread, which is Operation Aegis, Cruisers and Destroyers have big problems in staying power.  If you get jacked up and die early in a BB in Aegis, that is wholly player error.  BBs carry in Aegis.

I find it much easier to carry in a destroyer but that can simply be playstyle.

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Is a CV going out and spotting the first group a bad thing? Seems the moment they are spotted the Mahan smokes up meaning the smoke is further back. I am not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Just wondering what you folks think.

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9 minutes ago, jayhawk226 said:

Is a CV going out and spotting the first group a bad thing? Seems the moment they are spotted the Mahan smokes up meaning the smoke is further back. I am not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Just wondering what you folks think.

Early spotting is not a good thing.  It means that many torp launchers are out of range, and shell dispersion has more time to work its negative magic.

We always ask a foreign CV driver not to spot immediately.  Most already know about it.

 

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6 hours ago, jayhawk226 said:

Is a CV going out and spotting the first group a bad thing? Seems the moment they are spotted the Mahan smokes up meaning the smoke is further back. I am not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Just wondering what you folks think.

Early smoke drop by Mahan is not ideal for the team as it would be too far to sit in to reliably wipe out the enemy vanguard and it encourages the team to sit in the smoke at the farther position. This leads to the team being vulnerable by the second wave and may cost a ship or two that could have been avoided.

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11 hours ago, Lightninger said:

I find it much easier to carry in a destroyer but that can simply be playstyle.

I see way too many DDs and Cruisers die way too early in Aegis.

Sure it's different when we roll with the premade Divisions from Hoperations, where we have established routines and guys having played with each other.  But out there in randomly put together Aegis teams, DDs & Cruisers often die horrible, early deaths.

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