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mcgibe

My frustration with tier 8 carriers

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So I know that people are going to get angry at me and tell me CV's should be garbadge and be removed, but I'm going to say this anyway

Tier 8 carriers, when uptiered to tier 10, are woefully underpowered. There. I said it. Let the angry comments and negativity flow!

All kidding aside, I feel that tier 8 carriers are in a good spot at their tier. At tier 8, I feel that most carriers are in a pretty good spot with some even being borderline overpowered. Sure you can have a CV focus you down if you're alone, but usually you won't do a huge amount of damage or get an absurd number of kills (in my experience). There can be exceptions, *cough American CVs cough*, but for the most part, carriers are not as rewarding as surface ships are.

However, notice that I said they were fine at tier 8. When these ships are uptiered, it's a nightmare! Now I am not saying that tier 10 ships shredding planes is a bad thing, I've gone full AA builds on my Des memes myself, but it would be fine if there was about 3 or 4 tier 10 ships as you can try and avoid them and wait for ships to isolate themselves from the rest of the pack. But the constant matchmaking I often have is that the entire enemy team is filled to the brim with tier 10. In that situation, the best you can hope for is to maybe get some chip damage on enemies while having all of your aircraft lost at the first half of the battle. In something like the saipan, where your aircraft replenish slowly, you have to rely on getting your armament on target while being sure you will be completely deplaned. That's why I consider it the weakest aircraft carrier in the entire game as of now.

In short, I feel that tier 8 carriers are so underpowered for the constant tier 10 matchmaking they are faced with. But I want to keep this positive so I wanted to give a few suggestions to any of the dev's who might be listening. After all, we should try and give feedback to help make things better.

My first idea is the most straightforward. Make it harder for the matchmaker to uptier carriers. Heck, maybe make it harder for some other ships to be uptiered like cossack and z-39. Other ships which have heavy problems with being bottom tier. Maybe after a certain time, the matchmaker allows these ships to go into tier 10 battles just like tier 10 double cv games were solved.

My second idea was a little bit more risky. Nerfing the AA of tier 10 ships to tier 8 aircraft. Not tier 10 aircraft, tier 8, ok? Good. As I said this is a bit more risky since this could be exploited by unicums and statpadders alike so I am not sure about this option.

Finally, my last idea was to give tier 8 carriers planes a little more health. This isn't the best idea either and is pretty much here just for the rule of threes. This could be easily exploited by sealclubbers who could slaughter enemies without fear of taking heavy damage.

Anyways, these are my thoughts on this. I may be wrong about some things so I would love feedback from others. I don't want carrier's to be broken or horribly unfun to play as or against. I do want to see this rework succeed. I hope this layed out my, and other's, issues to those who were willing to read this gigantic vomit of text. Have a great day out there wherever you are!

(And please don't get me started on AP bombs vs HE bombs. That's a topic for another day)

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It really depends on how bad the opposing AA is.  A normal match with a few AA monsters isnt to bad.  But i have had games where over half the enemy team is a mix of Mino, and woosters.   The game was fast since bb on my team were deleting them left and right but i nearly got deplaned in 8mins doing 75k dmg in my saipan.  I kept forcing the CL to turn to avoid my torps putting them side onto my BB and delete.  Helped I warned my BB when id make a drop to hold their shots so they were loaded.

Teamwork = OP.

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I’m honestly starting to think that WG should have kept carriers to tiers V, VII, and IX, instead of the current set-up. 

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Worse feeling in the world being a kaga in an all t10 match with all heavy aa cruisers. Overall damage 10k yep very overpowered here.:cap_rambo:

 

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5 hours ago, mcgibe said:

So I know that people are going to get angry at me and tell me CV's should be garbadge and be removed, but I'm going to say this anyway

Tier 8 carriers, when uptiered to tier 10, are woefully underpowered. There. I said it. Let the angry comments and negativity flow!

All kidding aside, I feel that tier 8 carriers are in a good spot at their tier. At tier 8, I feel that most carriers are in a pretty good spot with some even being borderline overpowered. Sure you can have a CV focus you down if you're alone, but usually you won't do a huge amount of damage or get an absurd number of kills (in my experience). There can be exceptions, *cough American CVs cough*, but for the most part, carriers are not as rewarding as surface ships are.

However, notice that I said they were fine at tier 8. When these ships are uptiered, it's a nightmare! Now I am not saying that tier 10 ships shredding planes is a bad thing, I've gone full AA builds on my Des memes myself, but it would be fine if there was about 3 or 4 tier 10 ships as you can try and avoid them and wait for ships to isolate themselves from the rest of the pack. But the constant matchmaking I often have is that the entire enemy team is filled to the brim with tier 10. In that situation, the best you can hope for is to maybe get some chip damage on enemies while having all of your aircraft lost at the first half of the battle. In something like the saipan, where your aircraft replenish slowly, you have to rely on getting your armament on target while being sure you will be completely deplaned. That's why I consider it the weakest aircraft carrier in the entire game as of now.

In short, I feel that tier 8 carriers are so underpowered for the constant tier 10 matchmaking they are faced with. But I want to keep this positive so I wanted to give a few suggestions to any of the dev's who might be listening. After all, we should try and give feedback to help make things better.

My first idea is the most straightforward. Make it harder for the matchmaker to uptier carriers. Heck, maybe make it harder for some other ships to be uptiered like cossack and z-39. Other ships which have heavy problems with being bottom tier. Maybe after a certain time, the matchmaker allows these ships to go into tier 10 battles just like tier 10 double cv games were solved.

My second idea was a little bit more risky. Nerfing the AA of tier 10 ships to tier 8 aircraft. Not tier 10 aircraft, tier 8, ok? Good. As I said this is a bit more risky since this could be exploited by unicums and statpadders alike so I am not sure about this option.

Finally, my last idea was to give tier 8 carriers planes a little more health. This isn't the best idea either and is pretty much here just for the rule of threes. This could be easily exploited by sealclubbers who could slaughter enemies without fear of taking heavy damage.

Anyways, these are my thoughts on this. I may be wrong about some things so I would love feedback from others. I don't want carrier's to be broken or horribly unfun to play as or against. I do want to see this rework succeed. I hope this layed out my, and other's, issues to those who were willing to read this gigantic vomit of text. Have a great day out there wherever you are!

(And please don't get me started on AP bombs vs HE bombs. That's a topic for another day)

Tier 8 CVs are just as underpowered in tier 10 matchmaking as other t10 ships. This isn't unique to CVs only.

American CVs aren't exceptions to absurd amounts of kills and damage. Royal Navy dive bombers can really [edited] over BBs with those crazy dive bombers. And RN torpedo bombers can drop point blank unlike the other nations. Then we have IJN CVs that have torp bombers that don't drop point blank but are extremely fast compared to the other nations and hurt a lot unlike the other two. IJN CV dive bombers make USN dive bombers look like child's play by citadelling BBs and knocking out a third of a CA's health in just one strike not air group, strike.

Being paired up against t10 doesn't make you completely helpless. It's still possible to do a lot for your team and it isn't too hard to get 3rd place or so given the amount of noobs in both teams. But yes, it's significantly harder like how a New Mexico in a tier 8 match with super slow speed, bad accuracy, and being vulnerable to get rekt from all angles. Still possible but much more difficult.

Saipan literally has tier 10 aircraft. So if you lose aircraft fast, it's of your own doing and not the ship. Though the regen would be slow to counter it. It is understandable that sometimes there is no way to dodge flack or if the ping goes high for no reason.

Tier 8 carriers aren't underpowered. Just a matter of getting used to CVs. I do fine in Lexington. Though I don't yet have Implacable been doing fine in Furious despite being bottom tiered frequently. And Shokaku, I only played a few games, thought it was trash and sold it for free exp. I then saw how OP Hakuryu is so I wanted her, so I restarted the grind and loved the Hosho/Ryujo. Then played two games in Shokaku and did pretty okay despite being grossly downtiered and the ship being stock. I feel like playing the lower tier CVs made me a better CV player in general, and Shokaku wasn't underpowered. I just didn't get adapted to the new CVs well enough.

Giving special MM status to certain ships is grossly unfair, especially for Cossack and Z-39 which are very strong ships. It would mean that all the other ships will be downtiered more frequently as a result. And MM shouldn't be used to balance a ship. If the ship can't perform well, it's not the matchmaking's fault, it's the ship's fault. Also we do not want to give WG the ability to choose which ships should get privileged matchmaking because they don't know how to balance anything. Look at the Russian battleships as proof.

Giving more health if it can be exploited by someone, it means it's not the ship's fault. It means maybe you can improve somewhere. I thought the Shokaku was weak compared to Lexington and I was totally wrong. Shokaku is just as strong if not more, I just did not know how to CV, Hosho and Ryujo taught me how to properly play a CV. Additionally giving more health to t8 CVs may remove the difference between t8 and t10 CVs. t8 CVs may be in fact better to play as a result as not only you can avoid damage, but can stomp t6/t7 ships with impunity as they already struggle heavily against t8 CVs.

As for AP vs HE bombs, I like them both. I can really balance a destroyer properly as their only other reliant natural counter is Russian radar.
And AP is just broken, but fun. I can really ruin a BB, and nuke CAs.
Both bombs hurt a ton but for different classes. AP bombs are better on BBs/CAs as they cannot really heal back citadel damage and hitting a citadel does tons of damage. A single run in a strike can remove 1/3 of a cruiser's hp. 2 runs in a single strike can remove around half the health of a cruiser if dropped correctly. HE bombs do the same, but against DDs. DDs really need that kind of balance because nothing really counters them other than Russian radar.

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4 hours ago, SkaerKrow said:

I’m honestly starting to think that WG should have kept carriers to tiers V, VII, and IX, instead of the current set-up. 

I feel/think/believe they should have reversed carrier MM as compared to everything else... start at the top and drop down through the teirs... 10/9, 8/7, 6/5, 4/3 and be done with it. It would have made balancing them rewards-wise much easier. Two tier spread, not three... 

When an eight can see eight, nine and ten - which I (alone probably) call a three tier spread, it's too much difference in the ship performance levels.

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9 hours ago, mcgibe said:

Tier 8 carriers, when uptiered to tier 10, are woefully underpowered. There. I said it.

shot-19_05.02_17_43.33-0320.thumb.jpg.2ce3cf82ad785881fd0756c43d3429af.jpgshot-19_05.02_17_43.53-0855.thumb.jpg.ce1d11acb2329efe678646f0b239f7ff.jpg

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T8 CV are perfectly fine in T10 games. You just need to adapt and choose your targets more carefully. 

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1 hour ago, Lord_Slayer said:

shot-19_05.02_17_43.33-0320.thumb.jpg.2ce3cf82ad785881fd0756c43d3429af.jpgshot-19_05.02_17_43.53-0855.thumb.jpg.ce1d11acb2329efe678646f0b239f7ff.jpg

The amount of hits and damage is incredibly low for the amount of kills here.

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12 hours ago, JustAdapt said:

T8 CV are perfectly fine in T10 games. You just need to adapt and choose your targets more carefully. 

Tier 8 carriers are not fine when going up against a full roster of tier 10 ships which is mostly the norm these days, at least, from my experience.

The problem isn't really buffing tier 8 carriers, it's making the matchmaking better for tier 8 ships. With the current meta, it's highly likely that you will get shoved into a tier 10 sandwich in a tier 8 ship and I feel that carriers suffer the most from this due to their low average damage output and kills.

I hope I could have got my point across a little bit better now

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12 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

shot-19_05.02_17_43.33-0320.thumb.jpg.2ce3cf82ad785881fd0756c43d3429af.jpgshot-19_05.02_17_43.53-0855.thumb.jpg.ce1d11acb2329efe678646f0b239f7ff.jpg

Well done man! That is a pretty damn good score for a matchup like that. Still, that isn't the norm for most average players who are coming to grips with the carrier. And I do want to ask if you were almost deplaned throughout the battle?

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19 hours ago, Athrun2021 said:

Worse feeling in the world being a kaga in an all t10 match

I couldn't be happier reading this. You get what you deserve after games where you murder t6 ships with impunity. I love seeing t8 carriers get wrecked by t9 and 10 AA. I delight in seeing t6 carriers shredded by North Carolinas, Bismarcks, Clevelands and Chapayevs. It's the burden you must bear for making life miserable in matches where you are even or top tier. Stop your crying.

Ojibwe proverb about the absurdity of your self pity: "Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while, a great wind carries me across the sky." Every CV player with a complaint needs this tattooed on their forehead.

 

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11 hours ago, NeoRussia said:

The amount of hits and damage is incredibly low for the amount of kills here.

Yes, and he also scored top of the game and his base exp is nice.  My friend Seraphic regularly plays T8 CVs with me in my Vlad and they get top almost every game, with high calibers if you'd like to downplay the power of T8 CVs in a T10 game.

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You're right that T8 against T10s is woefully underpowered.  In a co-op match the other day and the only ship left for the enemy was a montana and my full DB squadron was wiped trying to get close enough for a drop.  Against T8 BBs I can usually get at least one run through the AA fire.

 

Here's the problem though.  If they buff planes to be competitive when up-tiered then ships of equal or lower tier are even more miserable.  There's no real winning to this situation because anything that makes flying planes fun and better at attacking ships directly reduces the fun ship captains could have in the game.  The stronger ship AA is then the less fun pilots have.  There's no happy medium between these because in the middle both ships and planes are equally miserable and not having fun.

WG needs to hurry up and tell us what their plans for planes are going to be so we can figure out if they finally understand the problem or if they are just going to smear a bit more lipstick across the pig and call it beautiful. 

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45 minutes ago, mcgibe said:

Tier 8 carriers are not fine when going up against a full roster of tier 10 ships which is mostly the norm these days, at least, from my experience.

The problem isn't really buffing tier 8 carriers, it's making the matchmaking better for tier 8 ships. With the current meta, it's highly likely that you will get shoved into a tier 10 sandwich in a tier 8 ship and I feel that carriers suffer the most from this due to their low average damage output and kills.

I hope I could have got my point across a little bit better now

The most battles you have in CVs is your T8 Lex.  You have 76 battles in it, with 53 wins.  That's something like a 69% win rate.  Your average xp in it is 1,983.

Those are good numbers.  I am not sure what else you are looking for here.

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44 minutes ago, mcgibe said:

Well done man! That is a pretty damn good score for a matchup like that. Still, that isn't the norm for most average players who are coming to grips with the carrier. And I do want to ask if you were almost deplaned throughout the battle?

They killed a total of 91 planes.  Assume some of those were fighters and ship planes and he probably had full squadrons the entire fight.  

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12 hours ago, legozer said:

I couldn't be happier reading this. You get what you deserve after games where you murder t6 ships with impunity. I love seeing t8 carriers get wrecked by t9 and 10 AA. I delight in seeing t6 carriers shredded by North Carolinas, Bismarcks, Clevelands and Chapayevs. It's the burden you must bear for making life miserable in matches where you are even or top tier. Stop your crying.

Ojibwe proverb about the absurdity of your self pity: "Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while, a great wind carries me across the sky." Every CV player with a complaint needs this tattooed on their forehead.

 

To tell truth I only take delight in crushing the crying babies like yourself that do nothing but cry about cv's being in a game with them. Even when I am up tier I still get my damage in. Far as tattoos get this :CV:on your forehead for me. 

Back on the OP topic it is crazy how underpowered the CV in being a 8 on a 10 match. All I ask is it to be as even as a t8 dd vs a t10 dd even in a Bismarck as my low IQ friend above talked about can do very well in a t10 match just want that chance to do the same. And btw legomyego a Bismarck is a bad example as far as AA to use even t6 cv's can pass it. Unless they are really that bad in a CV. Thanks and gl everyone.

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13 hours ago, legozer said:

I couldn't be happier reading this. You get what you deserve after games where you murder t6 ships with impunity. I love seeing t8 carriers get wrecked by t9 and 10 AA. I delight in seeing t6 carriers shredded by North Carolinas, Bismarcks, Clevelands and Chapayevs. It's the burden you must bear for making life miserable in matches where you are even or top tier. Stop your crying.

Ojibwe proverb about the absurdity of your self pity: "Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while, a great wind carries me across the sky." Every CV player with a complaint needs this tattooed on their forehead.

 

This is a little bit offside man. I want to get actual constructive feedbacks for a discussion, not an angry comment. It may also be that some players may have an opinion that differs from yours and that some carrier defenders have valid points.

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On 5/4/2019 at 11:12 PM, mcgibe said:

Well done man! That is a pretty damn good score for a matchup like that. Still, that isn't the norm for most average players who are coming to grips with the carrier. And I do want to ask if you were almost deplaned throughout the battle?

I was not putting up full squadrons at the end. I spent most of the game trying to avoid the AA cruisers, but surprisingly it was the DD that killed off most of my planes. Typical Land of fire match where ships hid behind islands. Used the planes to try and get them to pop out. Got the GK as it was bow tanking part of the team. DDs had torpedo inbound, only two hit, so I came in on the side with Torpedo planes and got it.

T8 in a T10 is do-able, you need to pick targets carefully, look for the lone ships and even low health ships.

 

I did come away with 2 compliments post battle.

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On Saturday, May 04, 2019 at 11:58 PM, ruar said:

They killed a total of 91 planes.  Assume some of those were fighters and ship planes and he probably had full squadrons the entire fight.  

Why not ask him to be more specific about it, instead of assuming?

@Lord_Slayer, can you give us an idea of if and when you started to feel plane losses? How many planes (not counting fighters) did you lose?

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16 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Why not ask him to be more specific about it, instead of assuming?

@Lord_Slayer, can you give us an idea of if and when you started to feel plane losses? How many planes (not counting fighters) did you lose?

I'd have to check my other screenshots (i'm at work now)

I believe I lost around 40+, mostly to that Z-52 and Missouri. As for when I started feeling the plane loss, I'm going to say I started flying off incomplete squadrons by the halfway point.

I stayed pretty much to the east side of the map. About the only time I went west was when the GK really pushed out into the cap zone and the rest of his team sat back. Until the Des moines died I pretty much went after the lone ships or tried to get in attacks when an island could block the AA.

 

 I did save the replay as though low damage, it was one of my better showings at CV and in a T10 match. Also that Z-52 did get within range of my secondaries and I had a real nail biter at the end of the battle before I finally got him with my rocket planes. I'll see about uploading the replay after work.

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18 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

I'd have to check my other screenshots (i'm at work now)

I believe I lost around 40+, mostly to that Z-52 and Missouri. As for when I started feeling the plane loss, I'm going to say I started flying off incomplete squadrons by the halfway point.

Fair enough, so basically, you lost about half of the planes you would have had with a hangar limit, and started to half incomplete squadrons halfway through.

That jibes with my experience. If I end up losing a whole CV worth of planes, I've got 2s and 3s to launch by a little past the halfway mark.

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ANY T8 ship has challenges when played at T10.  The key to this game is understanding those challenges and playing in a manner to limit vulnerabilities and play to strengths of self and weaknesses in the enemy.  This is true for all ships, but especially bottom tier ships.  T8 CVs are no exception.  T10 matches present challenges to T8 captains.  Recognizing those challenges and playing to maximize strengths is what makes the game fun.

This is also why +/- 2 tier matchmaking should (will) remain. It changes the dynamics.  Makes players think differently.

Edit:  A fundamental part of WOWS is asymmetric dynamics.  That's true with ship types in general, but the matchmaking is a critical part of the dynamics.  And tier delta plays to this dynamic.  Same ship, different MM, different tier...different dynamics.  It makes one ship play multiple ways.

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In the other game (co-op) this is my little experience opinion.

Tier 4 cv....useless too slow  and low damage planes to be of any use or to grind to 6

Tier 6 cv.....so so. Great bonus getting into ops. You can do well there.

Tier 8 cv.....super Uber in tier 6/7. Good in tier 8. Terrible in tier 9/10 (must attack isolated ships but usually bot run together)

Tier 10 cv ....do not have and will never get. Co-op battle  is too fast to be useful (usually every tier) and to high costs ( this tier)

Regards

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On 5/4/2019 at 8:47 AM, NeoRussia said:

The amount of hits and damage is incredibly low for the amount of kills here.

Playing CVs is all about picking the low hanging fruit.

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