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Sweetsie

Please help surface ships fight CV's, simple fixes

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A million ideas have been presented, some good, some not so good.  A very simplistic one....or two.

Example, In my Yorck I was out both my fighter and defensive fire consumables at the 10 minute mark in the game. We have so many more CV's and less protection from them. Remember fighters that would circle for 360 seconds? 

I understand the need to manage consumables but many ships can't afford to allow a CV to take a few pot shots at them, like the Yorck, two passes with fighters and I could easily lose 40% of my health and still not see an enemy ship yet......Staying with the Yorck, I already have to give up my strongest consumable, Hydro because of the number of tier 6 and 8 Cv's.

We don't need game changing code, simple smart fixes would be a good start. Give every ship one more consumable per slot, make ship launched fighters 1) stay up for two minutes. 2) Not glitch away when the enemy planes F key helicopter into space.

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Problem is if fighters stayed up for that long on every ship, CV's would get deplaned fast / have areas they cannot go all over the place.

 

Fighters kill CV planes 1-1, Losing planes like this will get you introuble really fast to the point of not able to do anything.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Spyde said:

Problem is if fighters stayed up for that long on every ship, CV's would get deplaned fast / have areas they cannot go all over the place.

 

Fighters kill CV planes 1-1, Losing planes like this will get you introuble really fast to the point of not able to do anything.

 

 

 

I don't agree with that at all. But say you are right, make them at least last long enough to deter the CV from coming directly back at you knowing your fighters and  def fire are gone. Say 80 seconds....

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4 minutes ago, Nagato_Kai__Ni said:

다운로드 (1).png

It's their livelihood, not ours. Just trying to help them and us.

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I'd like to see ALL fighters changed to have a damage quota, rather than a kill quota. Make them continue to patrol their zone and engage any aircraft that enter it for the full duration, and only leave once they've either done a certain amount of damage, run out of time, or get shot down. I don't think the fighter consumable should expire just because the first target they engage dies or escapes. Making it damage-based would mean WG could stop the silliness of rapid-fire catapults, balance individual fighters by both damage cap and DPS, and deal with the awkward situation of fighters being more effective against more durable planes (like the RN) than paper planes (like the Kaga).

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We CVs need opportunities for damage, and right now fighter and DF is balanced by their sheer damage. Audacious wandered too close to my Grozo last night and lost half his fighters to my DF burst before got out of range. Also, planes lose around 500-1100 HP per tic from fighters that latch on--all are dead within 15 seconds, even my buffed Midway DB.

It's a question of your timing the consumables effectively same as CV has to aim and time his attack runs to be effective. Welcome to our world.

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12 minutes ago, Reymu said:

We CVs need opportunities for damage, and right now fighter and DF is balanced by their sheer damage. Audacious wandered too close to my Grozo last night and lost half his fighters to my DF burst before got out of range. Also, planes lose around 500-1100 HP per tic from fighters that latch on--all are dead within 15 seconds, even my buffed Midway DB.

It's a question of your timing the consumables effectively same as CV has to aim and time his attack runs to be effective. Welcome to our world.

DF and fighters are not up all the time, a CV can come back and attack any time. Plus DF is not all that effective especially if you are against a half decent CV that expects it. I have posted a wooster clip repeatedly were the DBs and rockets from a Hak get through anyways.

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8 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

DF and fighters are not up all the time, a CV can come back and attack any time. Plus DF is not all that effective especially if you are against a half decent CV that expects it. I have posted a wooster clip repeatedly were the DBs and rockets from a Hak get through anyways.

At what cost to the CV?

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1 minute ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

DF and fighters are not up all the time, a CV can come back and attack any time. Plus DF is not all that effective especially if you are against a half decent CV that expects it. I have posted a wooster clip repeatedly were the DBs and rockets from a Hak get through anyways.

Ah yes, the immunity period right after dropping.

Thing is, my experience anyway, it's not game-breaking, just ensures even an AA ship can be hit. However, it's expecting the planes in question can aim accurately, so that leaves out US and IJN TB. I suppose one reasonable compromise is that recalled planes don't gain altitude, just take a few seconds to turn invincible and fly back--had occasions where the recalled planes, by gaining altitude, get out of AA range. That means CV will have to recall a bit more cautiously--small nerf.

DF is effective if you wait for CV to commit. Simply, it's your only shot to knock down planes. Still remains his decision to recall the planes right away, but at least DF gives you a chance of flak wiping them out during the recall animation. If it were that easy to annihilate CV squadrons, it'd be unbalanced, but at least you got a chance.

I'm not sure I necessarily want to see my ordinance hitting the ship though, but just gonna wait on WG. After all the complaining and proposed "fixes" that would let the anti-CV lot have WOWS their way, I wouldn't listen to their feedback either.

Finally, I'm competent at avoiding deplaning even in Midway. Make an attack run or two, recall rest of squadron, focus on key enemy targets, and keep going. As long as limit my attack runs, even DF and fighters won't hurt my striking power. Don't see anything wrong with that, all ship classes' main armaments are pretty well protected.

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4 minutes ago, Frenotx said:

At what cost to the CV?

Apparently not enough when the CV keeps coming back. But as usual people only care about the effect on the CV, nobody cares that a CV can take 1/3 of a woosters HP in a single AP db strike.

2 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Ah yes, the immunity period right after dropping.

Thing is, my experience anyway, it's not game-breaking, just ensures even an AA ship can be hit. However, it's expecting the planes in question can aim accurately, so that leaves out US and IJN TB. I suppose one reasonable compromise is that recalled planes don't gain altitude, just take a few seconds to turn invincible and fly back--had occasions where the recalled planes, by gaining altitude, get out of AA range. That means CV will have to recall a bit more cautiously--small nerf.

DF is effective if you wait for CV to commit. Simply, it's your only shot to knock down planes. Still remains his decision to recall the planes right away, but at least DF gives you a chance of flak wiping them out during the recall animation. If it were that easy to annihilate CV squadrons, it'd be unbalanced, but at least you got a chance.

I'm not sure I necessarily want to see my ordinance hitting the ship though, but just gonna wait on WG. After all the complaining and proposed "fixes" that would let the anti-CV lot have WOWS their way, I wouldn't listen to their feedback either.

Finally, I'm competent at avoiding deplaning even in Midway. Make an attack run or two, recall rest of squadron, focus on key enemy targets, and keep going. As long as limit my attack runs, even DF and fighters won't hurt my striking power. Don't see anything wrong with that, all ship classes' main armaments are pretty well protected.

In my experience DF is not effective, it just makes sure the attack costs the CV 1-2 more planes after the attack.

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6 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Apparently not enough when the CV keeps coming back. But as usual people only care about the effect on the CV, nobody cares that a CV can take 1/3 of a woosters HP in a single AP db strike.

In my experience DF is not effective, it just makes sure the attack costs the CV 1-2 more planes after the attack.

Was the wooster evading in any way? Did the CV get weirdly good RNG?

What would effective DF look like to you?

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3 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Apparently not enough when the CV keeps coming back. But as usual people only care about the effect on the CV, nobody cares that a CV can take 1/3 of a woosters HP in a single AP db strike.

In my experience DF is not effective, it just makes sure the attack costs the CV 1-2 more planes after the attack.

If aimed well and RNG smiles, you mean. I usually stick to TB or fighters on my Haku as the AP DB very fickle about hitting hard unless it's a BB.

You're probably using DF incorrectly. 4-5km is when pop mine and immediately hit brakes and turn--even competent CVs don't always get it right and have to hit boost in straight line (when flak is deadliest) or correct the aim. Not best odds for success, but better than nothing.

Plus, pro tip for anti-CV: you want the planes damaged by flak to make him recall his squadron. Otherwise he loses more planes on next attack run. Learned this hard way when using post-rework Midway and Haku.

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15 minutes ago, Reymu said:

We CVs need opportunities for damage, and right now fighter and DF is balanced by their sheer damage. 

What are you talking about? Currently a fighter consumable takes off and then circles your ship in a counter clockwise circle, if the enemy come in from the nose or starboard side ( yes I am a real licensed captain) he gets a free pass at you and possibly flies right on by without my fighters ever engaging. Wasted consumable. Def Fire, I may negate some of his attack but I still get hit for 20% of my health.

I don't want CV's to not do damage, but have some ships have a better chance of defending themselves. Having to use 6 pts of captains skills for BFT and SI to add to try to add to your AA defense plus use a module for AA is a high price to pay for AA to rarely work, or run out with ten minutes left in the game.  

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4 minutes ago, Frenotx said:

Was the wooster evading in any way? Did the CV get weirdly good RNG?

What would effective DF look like to you?

The guy you are questioning is one of the best players in the game, just learn.

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17 minutes ago, Reymu said:

 

Finally, I'm competent at avoiding deplaning even in Midway. Make an attack run or two, recall rest of squadron, focus on key enemy targets, and keep going. As long as limit my attack runs, even DF and fighters won't hurt my striking power. Don't see anything wrong with that, all ship classes' main armaments are pretty well protected.

I'll just address this portion of your post.

1)How do you think the "key targets" feel about a T10 carrier sending a steady stream of attack planes at them, that they have no way to get away from, or stop?

2)How does the ability of a T10 carrier to attack all game long, with no appreciable loss of aircraft, and no lost HP compare to a BB/CA/CL that has to risk their ship to acheive a similar level of damage/success?

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20 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Apparently not enough when the CV keeps coming back. But as usual people only care about the effect on the CV, nobody cares that a CV can take 1/3 of a woosters HP in a single AP db strike.

In my experience DF is not effective, it just makes sure the attack costs the CV 1-2 more planes after the attack.

A BB or a CA can take almost all of a Woosters health in a single strike, Torpedoes from a DD can take them all.   Am I missing a point?  Just sounds like more like of the  "I'm driving a AA cruiser so plans shouldn't ever hurt me" gripe I keep seeing?     i'll pretty much assure you no skilled CV pilot is attacking you unless its absolutely necessary or your all he has to target.   I literally cringe every time in a CV that I have to attack a AA cruiser.    

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5 minutes ago, RA6E_ said:

A BB or a CA can take almost all of a Woosters health in a single strike, Torpedoes from a DD can take them all.   Am I missing a point?  clearly

You can't be so naïve as to not know the answer to your own question. Each of your examples take skill and risk. Every shot a ship takes or torps sent incurs direct risk of detection or where you may be. The CV takes no risk.

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36 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Apparently not enough when the CV keeps coming back. But as usual people only care about the effect on the CV, nobody cares that a CV can take 1/3 of a woosters HP in a single AP db strike.

In my experience DF is not effective, it just makes sure the attack costs the CV 1-2 more planes after the attack.

Getting hit by 3 citadels is just damn unlucky if you're evading, but under DF it's almost impossible not to lose most of your planes. Even if you dodge every flack, the AA will still shoot down the retreating planes and like 3-4 more guaranteed. Getting hit by flack means losing your whole squad. 

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1 minute ago, Sweetsie said:

You can't be so naïve as to not know the answer to your own question. Each of your examples take skill and risk. Every shot a ship takes or torps sent incurs direct risk of detection or where you may be. The CV takes no risk.

If you don't understand the risk of losing a squad of planes in a CV, then you do not belong in this conversation.  Which FTR any normal player will,  in an attack on a wooster...you might  get you attack off,  if performed well or using slingshot, but not likely they make it out the other side against a wooster.   Common answer from someone who doesn't play carriers since the rework.   Its a difficult concept for a surface ship player, who hasn't devoted any time to playing CVS, to understand, granted, but none the less in a match that requires DOT to perform well  an entire squad of planes is a valuable thing.      

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Heyo Captains,

We are very much aware that things aren't 100% of the way there with CVs currently, as expressed by Sub_Octavian on reddit this morning: 

Screenshot_20190503-070552_Reddit.thumb.

Please hang tight and keep an eye out for these announced changes in the near future.

Fem,

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1 hour ago, Reymu said:

We CVs need opportunities for damage, and right now fighter and DF is balanced by their sheer damage. Audacious wandered too close to my Grozo last night and lost half his fighters to my DF burst before got out of range. Also, planes lose around 500-1100 HP per tic from fighters that latch on--all are dead within 15 seconds, even my buffed Midway DB.

It's a question of your timing the consumables effectively same as CV has to aim and time his attack runs to be effective. Welcome to our world.

Surface ship consumables are limited cv planes are not.  CV can just fly away when they see consumables are on.

   AA is nowhere near balanced for the onslaught of continuous planes

    Btw I have gz and have played cv.

Edited by grorg

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22 minutes ago, Frenotx said:

Was the wooster evading in any way? Did the CV get weirdly good RNG?

What would effective DF look like to you?

Yes evasive wooster, not as good rng as I have seen CVs get on other ships.

DFAA might be effective if it made a CV reconsider attacking the ship. Right now it does not change the situation at all: CV comes into strike, wooster AA is by default strong enough to limit a CV to 1 strike so if I dont pop DFAA the CV will only strike me once, if I pop DFAA and manage my sectors well the CV will still strike me once.

21 minutes ago, Reymu said:

If aimed well and RNG smiles, you mean. I usually stick to TB or fighters on my Haku as the AP DB very fickle about hitting hard unless it's a BB.

You're probably using DF incorrectly. 4-5km is when pop mine and immediately hit brakes and turn--even competent CVs don't always get it right and have to hit boost in straight line (when flak is deadliest) or correct the aim. Not best odds for success, but better than nothing.

Plus, pro tip for anti-CV: you want the planes damaged by flak to make him recall his squadron. Otherwise he loses more planes on next attack run. Learned this hard way when using post-rework Midway and Haku.

Why is it that cv players always assume anyone that does not enjoy being their cannon fodder are bad at the game?

4 minutes ago, RA6E_ said:

A BB or a CA can take almost all of a Woosters health in a single strike, Torpedoes from a DD can take them all.   Am I missing a point?  Just sounds like more like of the  "I'm driving a AA cruiser so plans shouldn't ever hurt me" gripe I keep seeing?     i'll pretty much assure you no skilled CV pilot is attacking you unless its absolutely necessary or your all he has to target.   I literally cringe every time in a CV that I have to attack a AA cruiser.    

A CV can take all of a woosters HP with 3 drops which is 1 strike. Torpedoes can be spotted with hydro which makes dodging them much easier.

 

Sounds like the "I am in a CV so I should get to attack anything, in any situation" gripe I keep seeing. Maybe when a ship has an AA consumable and invests heavily in AA it should take more effort for a CV to hit it. Just a thought.

 

Good players are good because they recognize good positions to be an effective thorn in the side of the enemy team. A good CV player likewise can recognize when an enemy ship is in an effective position and needs to be dealt with. Those same CV players also have the ability to abuse game mechanics such as the one Yuro recently demonstrated to attack high AA cruisers for little cost. Remember a AP DB squad can deliver up to 25,500 damage in one strike which is about 1/3 of a woosters HP.

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1 hour ago, Reymu said:

We CVs need opportunities for damage, and right now fighter and DF is balanced by their sheer damage. Audacious wandered too close to my Grozo last night and lost half his fighters to my DF burst before got out of range. Also, planes lose around 500-1100 HP per tic from fighters that latch on--all are dead within 15 seconds, even my buffed Midway DB.

It's a question of your timing the consumables effectively same as CV has to aim and time his attack runs to be effective. Welcome to our world.

Meanwhile in mine, withing 5km I saw him kill a NC, stalingrad and then myself. 3 good AA ships, with iverlaping bubbles and he killed us from full HP.

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1 minute ago, RA6E_ said:

If you don't understand the risk of losing a squad of planes in a CV, then you do not belong in this conversation.  Which FTR any normal player will,  in an attack on a wooster...you might  get you attack off,  if performed well or using slingshot, but not likely they make it out the other side against a wooster.   Common answer from someone who doesn't play carriers since the rework.   Its a difficult concept for a surface ship player, who hasn't devoted any time to playing CVS, to understand, granted, but none the less in a match that requires DOT to perform well  an entire squad of planes is a valuable thing.      

Maybe if I played a few more games I might have a better feel for what is going on? I just played a game and lost 89 planes in my Enterprise, I am pretty sure I know what losing a squad of planes does..... It does nothing, I just bake some more, or bring out a different flavor.

The game is pretty good, I just want to help ships that really need it become a little stronger. 

 

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