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ModDestroyer_1

Trying to do a Well Phrased CV Complaint

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I heard there was a lack of well phrased complaints about CVs. So i'll give it a shot.

First an overview of what my stats research from http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/ reveals when comparing 2018 Q3 data to 2019 Q1 data;

  • Tier 10 CVs do 87.75% of the damage they did before the nerf
  • Tier 8 CVs do 80.68% of the damage they used to do
  • Tier 6 CVs do 75.31% of the damage they used
  • And tier 4 CVs do 57.57% of the damage they used to.
  • Interestingly the unweighted averaged though is 86.99% of previous CV dmg.

But this data isn't complete by itself; so lets express CV damage across all  tiers to DD and BB damage:

  • Across all tiers CVs are doing 100.31% of the average dmg of BBs after the rework, compared to 122.34% before the rework.
  • Across all tiers CVs are doing 181.53% of the average dmg of DDs after the rework, compared to 211.98% before the rework

Second, some facts to take into account when looking at these numbers;

  • Where as before CVs were played mostly by a tiny super Unicum elite now CVs can almost be described as a popular class; or at least they are present in most games. So the pre-CV rework avrg dmg numbers are probably higher at least in part because it was a smaller more elite player base compared to those currently now playing CV
  • CVs no longer 'shutdown' one another with fighters; to be honest not certain how this effects overall damage but certainly CVs are vastly more focused on the fish in a barrel surface ships compared to pre-rework.
  • Finally, where as before CVs did their higher average damages across maybe 1 in 8 games the average player would experience now you see 1 or 2 CVs in virtually every game.

Finally, let's just list the inherent advantages of CV vs other classes their damage completely aside;

  • Still the best spotting class
  • Effectively the fastest class and able to be anywhere on the map at will, and attack any target at will with the exception of concentrated AA balls
  • Able to do damage at no risk to itself, often survives games even when the team losses, and able to play the entire game as there is no longer even a plane limit.

So now conclusion:

  • If CVs were only seen only every 6 games before the rework and 5/6 games since the rework across all the games, and CVs deal around 80% of the damage they used to per game, you would still have players taking 300% more dmg from airplanes across all 6 games compared to pre-rework experince... starting to see the problem maybe?

And now my own biased personal feelings:

  • I no longer play the game since the rework.
  • CVs are not fun to play against for any surface ship. There is nothing fun or rewarding about dodging planes or seeing them flying across the map fast as the wind to attack you in any ship. Where as dodging BB shells or DD torps feels much more rewarding. Partly because it feels like you have more of a fighting chance and your positioning affects how much danger you are in much more to begin with. Things like LoS also matter. Not with planes. How can you dodge planes that literally fly circles around you? You can't really... And even dodging them can take you way out of position that takes minutes to regain while the planes zip across the map in no time at all... I've had planes ruin games both in DDs and BBs without doing a point of damage to me....
  • It feels like OWSF used to feel honestly; constant, you can't really do much about it, unable to reply, fish in barrel feeling. It sucks to play. In fact, I can't play it. I refuse to play a game where every class but CV feels like a second class citizen. To be fair that was always the case but the rarity of CVs before made it very tolerable. Now it no longer is. This rework has honestly just made me of the opinion fun for CVs vs fun for surface ships is an absolute zero sum game. Cvs as they are for me turn the gameplay into a spastic stressful experience very different from the more rewarding zen strategic gameplay that made WoWs fun to play.  It makes it such a different game... I'm someone who found OWSF more of annoyance than something that made the game truly unplayable but this feels like that on steroids.
  • It is also almost like CVs turns the match into a race to kill the other team before the CVs kill everyone for the surface ships... that just isn't fun knowing that whole class functios as a game accelartor by doing free damage to everyone as an endless dot irrelevant of what you do....
  • It feels like how artillery feels in WoT more than ever; exists for no reason but WG wants to see games end faster even if it means ruining the game for most other classes. Great if that was part of your design WG but the game fundmentally is lesser for it from a player enjoyment perspective unless you happen to enjoy being a CV main now. When not just make the battle timer 18 mins instead of 20 instead of runing the gameplay for us?

What would be required to bring me back to the Game:

  • Option 1; leave CVs as they are but make playing games without them an option for non CV players. Or something you can choose to only have to deal with only every 8 games or so. Some kind of 'avoid' option in MM.
  • Option 2; Make CVs fight each other for air dominance again; this alone would do a hell of a lot in reducing the average damage they deal to players across 10 games back to where it was before. Also must reintroduce hanger size limitations. Otherwise shooting down planes feels stupid and futile and the entire AA sounds and animation become annoying reminders of how stupid the underlying mechanics are. Keep Damage nerfed as it is.
  • Option 3: Nerf CVs further into the ground to the point they are not present in every game because not enough people want to play them; there isn't another option because if people are playing them enough they are in every game they probably are still effective enough to be ruining the game for everyone else. This is what I really meant when I said above I now believe fun for CVs vs fun for every other class is now a zero sum game.

 

Edited by ModDestroyer_1
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Loading up your CV whine thread with stats before devolving it into another CV whine thread really isn’t particularly special. You could have left the statistics there to speak for themselves instead of going for the “poor pitiful me, second class citizen” schtick. You could have pointed out how the stats correlated to tangible changes in game. You even could have explained how the new CVs have changed your personal playstyle and why you think that those changes are negative. Instead, more useless feelings. No one feels good when they get sunk, that has nothing to do with CVs.

Edited by SkaerKrow
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2 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

Loading up your CV whine thread with stats before devolving it into another CV whine thread really isn’t particularly special. You could have left the statistics there to speak for themselves instead of going for the “poor pitiful me, second class citizen” schtick. You could have pointed out how the stats correlated to tangible changes in game. You even could have explained how the new CVs have changed your personal playstyle and why you think that those changes are negative. Instead, more useless feelings. No one feels good when they get sunk, that has nothing to do with CVs.

The Stats speak for themsleves. I save my bias and personal feelings for the very very end.

And I did explain how CVs change my personal playstyle. I no longer play period.

As I mentioned; the reason it feels stupid is because it feels like OFSW. I'm not sure how surface ships are supposed to feel any less helpless with aircraft spam every game from an enemy they can't do anything about virtually the entire game every game. Stupid.

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4 minutes ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

The Stats speak for themsleves.

So he hides his.... 

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@ModDestroyer_1  Thanks for taking the time to post this.  WG asked for feedback and you gave it.  No need to respond to those that don't want to be constructive.

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You are not wrong OP.  Everyone but Cv's want not CV option.  If there was a not CV option, the only people in CV games world be cv's.  They know it, we know it, wg knows it.  That would alienate their CV premium cash grab and crates cash grab.  They also invested millions into this failure v3 0.  It is here too stay.  WoT taught them nothing.

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23 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

Loading up your CV whine thread with stats before devolving it into another CV whine thread really isn’t particularly special. You could have left the statistics there to speak for themselves instead of going for the “poor pitiful me, second class citizen” schtick. You could have pointed out how the stats correlated to tangible changes in game. You even could have explained how the new CVs have changed your personal playstyle and why you think that those changes are negative. Instead, more useless feelings. No one feels good when they get sunk, that has nothing to do with CVs.

Even when players take the time to explain how CVs have altered play styles it gets labelled as whining.

 

I could point out that before 8.0 I was able to sail my heavy cruisers on the edges of the fight or back and forth between some friendly BBs and have a lot of fun shooting at other ships.  Occasionally planes would come in and I would click on the biggest threat, turn if the planes came at me, and keep on engaging the other ships.  I could talk about how I enjoyed learning how to use islands to shield my movements and allow me to turn and get a better angle when my targets came around the obstacle.  I could talk about chasing down DDs and kiting BBs depending on what needed to be done.

Then 8.0 came along and all of that changed.  Edge of the battle was a bad place to be because planes loved that area.  No more room in between BBs because they hung back and stayed tighter together.  How planes were constantly on my HUD with a warning and trying to track planes, react to incoming air attacks, and still stay engaged with the ship battle became frustrating.  There is the fact islands don't really matter as much because I could be constantly spotted and lit up which let my opponents target me while I was trying to change course.  There was no more chasing DDs or kiting BBs because planes ran off the DDs and pushed the BBs into a ball.  

The only thing left was to hug other ships and do a minimum of maneuvers while hoping the group moved in a good direction and not in such a way that we got picked off one by one.  Gone was the battle of skill and position. 

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I just got out of a match on my Des Moines and had a fun time destroying waves of aircraft from the enemy Midway.  I had pretty big smile on my face when he was only launching squadrons of 2 aircraft.

43 minutes ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

What would be required to bring me back to the Game:

  • Option 1; leave CVs as they are but make playing games without them an option for non CV players. Or something you can choose to only have to deal with only every 8 games or so. Some kind of 'avoid' option in MM.
  • Option 2; Make CVs fight each other for air dominance again; this alone would do a hell of a lot in reducing the average damage they deal to players across 10 games back to where it was before. Also must reintroduce hanger size limitations. Otherwise shooting down planes feels stupid and futile and the entire AA sounds and animation becoming annoying reminder of how stupid the underlying mechanics are.

The leave out CV option will never happen.  If you want that then I want a Non-DD match in my BB's.  I would want a non-radar match in my DD.

The option two I will support.  If they were to buff the fighter consumable on CV's to where it wouldn't despawn until its timer is up would offer counter play for the CV's against other CV's.

 

Edited by HeadSplit120
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I'm okay with CV's. As a matter of fact I do an impossibly higher percentage of damage after the rework with my shiny new Saipan. But that ain't saying much because it is always low damage and also because I am a CV noob and Saipan is my only CV. I am the CV you want to see on the red team in a battle. But guess what?

As a DD main I have FUN playing against CV's and find it a riot trying my hand dealing out the damage from the air.

Excellent job with the rework, WG. You got me to "join the dark side" and I swore I never would...

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Well I'd like to thank you for taking the time to reason out and find stats to support your argument. But there's one major flaw with it:

You say that since carriers no longer spend as much time shutting each other down with fighters, they technically do more damage now than pre-rework, but that isn't the case. That's because aircraft HP has never been calculated in with ship HP, at least not to my knowledge, to the point that even in the game interface you can track your damage v. ships and your AA damage separately. The more accurate statement is that they focus more on surface ships, which is 100% true because all you can do to "counter" another carrier is blow it up or drop fighters.

My argument would be that carrier damage output is fine because of how long into the match it takes to get those results. Something as simple as rolling the enemy early can drastically drop a carriers' damage, compared to other classes which could conceivably be dealing much higher than average if they were part of that "rolling" force. After all, the enemy team still has just as much HP to lose in a short game as a long one (heals notwithstanding), it just gets lost a lot quicker. Aircraft travel times plus line-up times throttle carrier damage a lot more than the simple reload timer that most ships get.

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45 minutes ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

and CVs deal around 80% of the damage they used to per game, you would still have players taking 300% more dmg from airplanes across all 6 games compared to pre-work experince...

let's be honest, player expierce way more damage from BBs, CAs and DDs just because they exist in EVERY game in a much higher number per game.

But I got it, only damage form airplane is unacceptable.

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35 minutes ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

The Stats speak for themsleves. I save my bias and personal feelings for the very very end.

And I did explain how CVs change my personal playstyle. I no longer play period.

As I mentioned; the reason it feels stupid is because it feels like OFSW. I'm not sure how surface ships are supposed to feel any less helpless with aircraft spam every game from an enemy they can't do anything about virtually the entire game every game. Stupid.

Original post was fine OP. Don't waste your time replying to toxic trolls whose go to response is you are whinning!

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48 minutes ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

If CVs were only seen only every 6 games before the rework and 5/6 games since the rework across all the games, and CVs deal around 80% of the damage they used to per game, you would still have players taking 300% more dmg from airplanes across all 6 games compared to pre-work experince... starting to see the problem maybe?

Nice job OP - this section in particular sums it up for me on the issue I personally have pre and post rework -  but I'm afraid no one is listening.

You didnt even take into account the spotting damage from CVs but that would also be interesting to see if you had those figures.  I'm sure it isnt as significant as direct damage but it sure has thrown the gameplay experience for a loop when a lot of ships in the game cant do anything to break contact.

Again, nice work on putting this together.

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2 minutes ago, sapient007 said:

let's be honest, player expierce way more damage from BBs, CAs and DDs just because they exist in EVERY game in a much higher number per game.

But I got it, only damage form airplane is unacceptable.

It's not the damage nearly as much as the dominance of map positioning,  spotting, and change in tactics. Then add potentially high damage to the mix and it becomes a "why bother" situation.  You know going in the planes have the advantage and can dictate the pace and position of the battle so why bother even entering the match?

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6 minutes ago, ruar said:

Even when players take the time to explain how CVs have altered play styles it gets labelled as whining.

 

I could point out that before 8.0 I was able to sail my heavy cruisers on the edges of the fight or back and forth between some friendly BBs and have a lot of fun shooting at other ships.  Occasionally planes would come in and I would click on the biggest threat, turn if the planes came at me, and keep on engaging the other ships.  I could talk about how I enjoyed learning how to use islands to shield my movements and allow me to turn and get a better angle when my targets came around the obstacle.  I could talk about chasing down DDs and kiting BBs depending on what needed to be done.

Then 8.0 came along and all of that changed.  Edge of the battle was a bad place to be because planes loved that area.  No more room in between BBs because they hung back and stayed tighter together.  How planes were constantly on my HUD with a warning and trying to track planes, react to incoming air attacks, and still stay engaged with the ship battle became frustrating.  There is the fact islands don't really matter as much because I could be constantly spotted and lit up which let my opponents target me while I was trying to change course.  There was no more chasing DDs or kiting BBs because planes ran off the DDs and pushed the BBs into a ball.  

The only thing left was to hug other ships and do a minimum of maneuvers while hoping the group moved in a good direction and not in such a way that we got picked off one by one.  Gone was the battle of skill and position. 

^^^ Is this any different than before the rework? Since 8.0 have you stopped "turn if the planes came at me, and keep on engaging the other ships"? Weren't you always spotted before?? How did you deal with it then?

Since the rework have you ever been dev-struck by a CV? I find the torps laughable. A single torp can't even sink my DD. I admit the DB are a real threat if you don't WASD.

My guess is WG won't be able to please all the players with any CV meta. At least give them an "A" for the effort to make it better. I think it is. And yes, that is an opinion unsupported by any stats or factual evidence, allowable, as the Op declared in his post.

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4 minutes ago, Khafni said:

Is this any different than before the rework?

Happening 5-10% of the time before the rework vs 90+% after the rework seems pretty different

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2 minutes ago, Khafni said:

^^^ Is this any different than before the rework? Since 8.0 have you stopped "turn if the planes came at me, and keep on engaging the other ships"? Weren't you always spotted before?? How did you deal with it then?

Since the rework have you ever been dev-struck by a CV? I find the torps laughable. A single torp can't even sink my DD. I admit the DB are a real threat if you don't WASD.

My guess is WG won't be able to please all the players with any CV meta. At least give them an "A" for the effort to make it better. I think it is. And yes, that is an opinion unsupported by any stats or factual evidence, allowable, as the Op declared in his post.

Yes it's different if for no other reason than almost every match has one or two carriers and before most matches had none.

It's different because before my AA could wipe out a squadron and avoid the attack all together instead of only damaging a few planes while the attack still goes through. 

Yes, that attack is weaker but it also continues through the entire fight and never stops. Before you could routinely strip a carrier of planes, now it is rare.

Before attacks were mostly automated so turning had far more effect. Now the pilots are better able to adjust and get hits in.

Before the rework I rarely died to planes, after the rework that still holds true, but the difference is the fights aren't fun.  I used to take pleasure in helping my team kill planes and clear the skies. Now it's just a pointless hope because there is almost always a new set of planes flying around.

 

And your response kind of proves my point.  Even when people do take the time to explain how the rework impacted and change how the game feels it's still challenged and ignored. You downplay my experience and try to play it off like I don't know how I feel or what I saw.

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50 minutes ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

The Stats speak for themsleves.

 

45 minutes ago, _Browncoat_ said:

So he hides his.... 

Oh the irony.

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completely tired of the ruination of my DDs by CV's . I have to take every bit of AA I can and it weakens my ship because of it . I lose reload rate  and the ability to use my engine boost .  Get these Cvs out of this game  . My other ships took an AA nerf hit in guns / range  or both when this crap started . The Sector reinforcement is a constant distraction / weakness 

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23 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

 

My argument would be that carrier damage output is fine because of how long into the match it takes to get those results. "

If your argument were valid it would be redundant: we could get the same damage from simply adding an additional battleship. That is in fact how the majority of games were played before the rework, and no one complained that there were no aircraft carriers present.

But your argument is invalid because it does not recognize how the damage pattern and CONSTANT presence of CVs interact to make everything worse for the other players.

When you are fighting with another battleship you trade damaged so the damage you take is paid back by the damage you inflicted on the red ship. 

With CVs the exchange is completely one-sided. The damage you receive is not related to anything that you achieve in the game: it is arbitrary and pointless.

Moreover that flow of damage is constant if you are focused. Your AA is erratic and usually worthless.

But in addition to the griefing that CVs do to individual ships, there's the global damage effect. Data posted two other threads show that damage generated by other ships has fallen. Everyone else now has longer grinds and lower XP. Moreover achievements such as Kraken high-caliber, solo Warrior, and Confederate become that much harder to achieve.

There is not a single aspect of gameplay that CVs affect positively. They are simply artillery placed in the game to speed it up. 

No amount of tinkering with the relationship between the airplanes and the anti-aircraft fire is ever going to address the central issue: there are too many CVs in the game now. Only by reducing them to their previous level of 25% of matches can the game be restored to its previous level of fun.

I grieve for the old game I loved so much.

 

 

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1 minute ago, ruar said:

It's not the damage nearly as much as the dominance of map positioning,  spotting, and change in tactics. Then add potentially high damage to the mix and it becomes a "why bother" situation.  You know going in the planes have the advantage and can dictate the pace and position of the battle so why bother even entering the match?

Don't really want to reply this kind of topics because every solutions have already been mentioned somewhere before. Some just unsatisfied of what they were told, which direction the game is evolving into and refuse to change. Some tactics(i.e. find your island waifu and hug it all game long)  should never be an option if CV presents in every game even without the rework. Those tactics go so far as become meta only because you don't expect a CV in most game in the past and feel unlucky if there was one.

Let's just say it one more time.

For spotting, you do know CV now only have one squad compared to 4-7 they use to have right. The scouting potential is actually dramatically reduced after the rework to let everyone feel more comfortable when CV is there. If you don't just Yolo along all the time, always keep an eyes on the mini-map and have a back-up plan to regroup with your teammates, the rework CV is way less dangerous than the old one.

 

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The CV rework is a complete and total failure, having met NONE of the goals set by the developers when they initiated it. The game is in worse shape than before, there is much more divisiveness and hate connected with CVs between player groups, and CVs still run rampant in most matches they're in. 

But, hey, I'm sure one more micro-patch will fix everything, just like it has for the last three years.

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2 hours ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

CVs no longer 'shutdown' one another with fighters;

False, a well positioned fighter (specially from a T10 CV) can wipe out an entire attack squad, dropping them behind mountains or in the way to their targets makes it so CV have to switch focus, wasting time and/or planes.

You can also occasionaly snipe the enemy CV with a well played maneuver, more specifically, torpedo bombers...how? Secret.

2 hours ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

Effectively the fastest class and able to be anywhere on the map at will, and attack any target at will with the exception of concentrated AA balls

False, you can still launch "suicide attacks" onto AA balls, the AA usually isn't strong enough to destroy the first attack run.

False, they're not the fastest class, their planes on the other hand are, once spotted a CV movement pattern is "easy" to predict and leads to devastating strikes.

False, we can't attack any target at will, the targets that are actively maneuvering are almost impossible to get 100% hit ratio.

2 hours ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

Able to do damage at no risk to itself, often survives games even when the team losses, and able to play the entire game as there is no longer even a plane limit.

True, we do damage without risking ourselves...just like torpedo boats and smoke/hiding behind disland users, please don't come saying "but those are risking their ship to enemy fire" when unless you have the target spotted you won't be dealing damage to him.

True, we often survive most games...when playing safe, at the backline.

False, there is a plane limit.

2 hours ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:
  • An individual CV might only average 80% of the damage they used to before, but there are more CVs now in more games and they no longer shut each other down. So overall the CVs on both teams will average significantly more dmg compared to pre-work.
  • If CVs were only seen only every 6 games before the rework and 5/6 games since the rework across all the games, and CVs deal around 80% of the damage they used to per game, you would still have players taking 300% more dmg from airplanes across all 6 games compared to pre-rework experince... starting to see the problem maybe?

You also said that CVs pre-rework would shut down each other and the winner would do the damage, right?

So think with me, you have a match with 2 CVs, one loses and the other is now able to damage the other ships...and those CVs were the one dealing more damage than the reworked CVs...something wrong, right? This basically means that the winner CV is dealing double the average damage you saw....of course, it's not the double since there will be matches where both CVs will be able to launch attacks and keep on a stalemate, but you get the idea.

And no, there are no problems besides your "math" to the damage across all games, NO ONE gets focused by CVs for nothing, before the rework the player would receive A LOT MORE focused damage than right now.

2 hours ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

I no longer play the game since the rework.

You don't play the game since the rework but have all those strong opinions about the rework...

2 hours ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

CVs are not fun to play against for any surface ship. There is nothing fun or rewarding about dodge planes or seeing them flying across the map fast as the wind to attack you in any ship. Where as dodging BB shells or DD torps feels much more rewarding. Partly because it feels like you have more of a fighting chance. How can you dodge planes that literally fly circles around you? You can't really...

I won't say it's easy to dodge planes but it isn't hard at all...but hey, it's your opinion, I also don't like people sitting in smokes and behind islands firing from safety when I play with BBs/Cruisers, I also don't like radar ships that make me torp at 10+ km range, but at the same time I know that it was needed to balance things out, the same with CVs.

 

2 hours ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:

It feels like how artillery feels in WoT more than ever; exists for no reason but WG wants to see games end faster even if it means ruining the game for most other classes. Great if that was part of your design WG but the game fundmentally is lesser for it from a player enjoyment perspective unless you happen to enjoy being a CV main now.

And if arty didn't exist, player A would still be hiding behind that house because player B is hiding behind that rock, both aiming at each other, arty was added to force those targets to either disengage or try a push, WoT is the most unbalanced game ever and using that game as an example...yickes...

 

2 hours ago, ModDestroyer_1 said:
  • Option 1; leave CVs as they are but make playing games without them an option for non CV players. Or something you can choose to only have to deal with only every 8 games or so. Some kind of 'avoid' option in MM.
  • Option 2; Make CVs fight each other for air dominance again; this alone would do a hell of a lot in reducing the average damage they deal to players across 10 games back to where it was before. Also must reintroduce hanger size limitations. Otherwise shooting down planes feels stupid and futile and the entire AA sounds and animation becoming annoying reminder of how stupid the underlying mechanics are.

Option 1: No DD matches, No AA matches, No radar matches, No torpedo matches, No smoke matches, No fire matches, No main battery matches, No +203mm calibers matches...you get it, right?

Option 2: I agree, right now CVs are immune to AP bombs and rockets shatter on contact dealing 0 damage, if this wasn't enough they only take 5s of fire damage...this is horrible, CVs citadel should act like USN BBs where it's rare to get 1 citadel (even rarer for 2) but at least being possible to be citadeled.

--------------

 

Now my personal opinion:

  • You read the data and made your conclusions, the problem is that we all can read the data and interpretate in many ways, for example, if CVs pre-rework did 100% damage and reworked does 80% while at the same time pre-rework CV was the damage from only 1 CV (the winner from the dogfights) and rework is "all CVs", this just means that pre-reworked "winner" CV was doing 150% or more damage WITH their limited planes, whereas reworked CV are dealing a lot less damage WITH "UNLIMITED PLANES", thus meaning that the rework was an actual nerf for the CV class...right? :cap_hmm:
  • The damage from CVs comes because of their survivability, if you survive long enough with any class you'll also rack up more damage, think this way:
    • CVs deal "100% damage" and survives 71% battles.
    • BBs are dealing "90% damage" but surviving only 36% of battles.
      • This by itself means that a BB that dies in the first 10 minutes is dealing the same damage of a CV surviving 16~18 minutes, which in turns would mean that BBs that survive more are dealing even more damage than anything in the game.
  • One thing is to read and interpretate data, the other is to put into practice, I invite EVERY CV HATER to try and play CVs, specially the tech tree tier 8 ones, after that I'd gladly try to understand more of their point of view.
    • As an example, I've forced myself to play with my other ships to see the "surface ships" point of view...I've been playing with:
      • DD kagero (13 pt cpt)
      • Cruiser Mogami(B) (13 pt cpt)
      • BBs Bismarck and stock Izumo (13 and 15 pt capt)
        • And those are the results of the last 7 days (Bad recent cruiser result is because of lag and DC...those are lethal for IJN cruisers):
          • image.thumb.png.fce8aa6f77d72c9ec848bcf69f38ed68.png
          • I still have to see a CV player "own me" besides when I'm playing with stock Izumo, all of those ships have the worst AA for their classes and I'm not using AA builds, yet I'm managing to do just fine, whereas people with godly AA machines are complaining A LOT, I can manage aircrafts because of a simple reason, I know how they work, so I know how to dodge them.
  • The CV armour is a double edged sword, for one side it lets us ignore enemy planes, but for the other, we're often devastated by long range artillery, I remember a match where I spotted a Kaga just to see it being exploded by a Musashi salvo, it took around 30k with a single salvo from a single BB....I also often citadel those CVs with EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME because the firing range makes it so DDs and Cruisers target their weak belt armour while BBs target their strong deck armour.

 

I could keep on telling a lot of other CV problems but then I fear it would be for nothing, so I better save my time and just put this as small as possible.

 

CVs aren't OP, the player behind them is just good.

Edit: Aaaaand 10 seconds after posting it I receive a downvote...this isn't even the time to read the first 3 paragraphs...some just hate when others tell what they don't like.

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One most important datum left out..... how many planes per class shot down on average.  It was 3 times higher before the rework. On average across every class.  Tonight I played in my beloved Atlanta.  DD gave me a cover smoke and planes all around me.  Before I would not even bother paying a great deal of attention to the attack.  Most of the time I would shoot down 6-12 planes per cycle.  I struggled to get 2 in one cycle of def aa.

Edited by Willawaw

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19 minutes ago, Willawaw said:

One most important datum left out..... how many planes per class shot down on average.  It was 3 times higher before the rework. On average across every class.

Honestly AA is a crapshoot right now. I've done strikes on higher tier US destroyers that didn't put a dent in my squadrons, and I've also had a Z-52 wipe out an entire squadron of rocket planes with three lucky overlapping flak bursts.

That's the main problem with the rework to me. AA is LITERALLY hit-or-miss and the only real things a surface ship can do are huddle up, switch AA sectors (with a clunky interface), pop DFAA, and dodge. There's very little agency for them in that interaction while the carrier player has full manual control of everything but where the rockets, bombs, or torps hit within the aiming-guide. AA needs to feel more impactful for surface ship players, or at the very least less RNG-dependent.

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