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Captain_Rawhide

Win rate...is this really the best way.

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I'm not sure why Win Rate matters that much when viewing your effectiveness in this game.  It seems that your final battle placement would be a much better indication of how you did.    I know, that even though my team didn't win, if I am in the top on a losing team, I did a decent job.  Your placement is generated by what WoW considers important; kills, damage, plane kills, defending bases, capturing bases etc.  And I think we all know that win rates can be manipulated with a whole host of gimmicks.  Win Rate probably counts in some capacity, but not to the degree that it is revered.  

Edited by Captain_Rawhide
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On a small sample size, win rate means nothing.  A great player can lose 7 out of any 10 games, and a terrible player can win 7 out of 10.  You can't control who matchmaker gives you for teammates.

On a large sample size, win rate is the only stat that matters.  After enough battles all the weirdness with matchmaker and rng and everything else evens out and your win rate is indicative of your contribution to your team. 

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I think WR is important - in moderation. Looking exclusively at WR isn't healthy, but if someone has a 35% WR in a ship, it may be time to examine the reasons why there's a trend.

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Yes Random WR is the going standard. Can it be manipulated? Yes.

You can find some players who are obvious 2nd accounts. Have less than 500 games, have purple numbers, and be concentrated into one class or just one specific ship.

Is that wrong? Nope. It's what ever a person wants to do.

Some people don't even look at stats. They just want to pew pew pew and relax. Is that wrong? Nope

Edited by Capt_Ahab1776
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3 minutes ago, Captain_Rawhide said:

I'm not sure why Win Rate matters that much when viewing your effectiveness in this game.  It seems that your final battle placement would be a much better indication of how you did.    I know, that even though my team didn't win, if I am in the top on a losing team, I did a decent job.  Your placement is generated by what WoW considers important; kills, damage, plane kills, defending bases, capturing bases etc.  And I think we all know that win rates can be manipulated by with a hole host of gimmicks.  I know Win Rate probably counts in some capacity, but not to the degree that it is revered.  

Nope. Nope. Nope.

 I've been around the game long enough to see many a player end up at or near the top of a losing team who was a major reason for the loss.

 BBs on a sight seeing tour of the map edge when they needed to be elsewhere. Then when the match is out of hand the enemy goes into kill all mode and gives up a bunch of damage and a few kills.

 Radar Cruisers who park as far from the enemy as they can, well out of range of where radar is needed, farming damage and contesting nothing.

 DDs who chase one BB to the 10 line, well past the point that BB can even be a threat to the battle. But they got a cap and solo'd the BB...

 

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10 minutes ago, Brhinosaurus said:

On a small sample size, win rate means nothing.  A great player can lose 7 out of any 10 games, and a terrible player can win 7 out of 10.  You can't control who matchmaker gives you for teammates.

On a large sample size, win rate is the only stat that matters.  After enough battles all the weirdness with matchmaker and rng and everything else evens out and your win rate is indicative of your contribution to your team. 

Very much this.

WR% with a few amount of battles is nice but too many things can skew it due to sample size.

Now, someone with tons of battles played in PVP and maintains a 50%+ Win Rate, that's another thing entirely.  It's proven.  Most especially Solo PVP stats.

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What win rate indicates on the long run is in how many battles your performance actually affected the outcome of a battle.  

However that doesn't mean you can't farm it via sealclubbing and/or Divisions, so solo winrate is what you wanna check.

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Play Scenarios where what you do counts for the whole team.

I don't waste time in Random or Co-Op.

Scenarios have a mission if all do what is expected of the ship they choose to play it always is a win.

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As a few others said, take it with moderation.  If I bother to take the time to look someone up, I'm looking for the whole picture. Number of battles played, average damage in that ship and overall, WR, Kill to death ratio, average xp in that ship and overall, are their stats trending up or down over a longer period of time.  Do they division a lot, are they in a very competitive clan, etc.  More to a player than just their win rate for the most part.

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8 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

What win rate indicates on the long run is in how many battles your performance actually affected the outcome of a battle.  

However that doesn't mean you can't farm it via sealclubbing and/or Divisions, so solo winrate is what you wanna check.

yup.  Solo win rate, and, if you're recruiting a player with the expectations that they're joining you for clan battles or whatever, you want to check their results by tier.  Some people do very well at mid tiers but struggle at tier 10.

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32 minutes ago, Captain_Rawhide said:

I'm not sure why Win Rate matters that much when viewing your effectiveness in this game.  It seems that your final battle placement would be a much better indication of how you did.    I know, that even though my team didn't win, if I am in the top on a losing team, I did a decent job.  Your placement is generated by what WoW considers important; kills, damage, plane kills, defending bases, capturing bases etc.  And I think we all know that win rates can be manipulated by with a hole host of gimmicks.  I know Win Rate probably counts in some capacity, but not to the degree that it is revered.  

The problem with position is it is variable. You can be at the top even if you sucked big time and you can be at the bottom and have had a great match.

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1 hour ago, Brhinosaurus said:

On a small sample size, win rate means nothing.  A great player can lose 7 out of any 10 games, and a terrible player can win 7 out of 10.  You can't control who matchmaker gives you for teammates.

On a large sample size, win rate is the only stat that matters.  After enough battles all the weirdness with matchmaker and rng and everything else evens out and your win rate is indicative of your contribution to your team. 

^Pretty much this

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Win rate shows your influence on a battle.  It's pretty easy to pump your placement on the team farming damage and polishing off cripples in garbage time when the game is lost.

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32 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Win rate shows your influence on a battle.  It's pretty easy to pump your placement on the team farming damage and polishing off cripples in garbage time when the game is lost.

BBs doing this a lot because they have the tank to do so.

Edited by Final8ty

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2 hours ago, Ares1967 said:

Nope. Nope. Nope.

 I've been around the game long enough to see many a player end up at or near the top of a losing team who was a major reason for the loss.

 BBs on a sight seeing tour of the map edge when they needed to be elsewhere. Then when the match is out of hand the enemy goes into kill all mode and gives up a bunch of damage and a few kills.

 Radar Cruisers who park as far from the enemy as they can, well out of range of where radar is needed, farming damage and contesting nothing.

 DDs who chase one BB to the 10 line, well past the point that BB can even be a threat to the battle. But they got a cap and solo'd the BB...

 

Bad Win Rates don't get there by accident, especially after more and more battles are played.

 

It's one thing when it's some newbie at 500 games in and he's getting crushed.  But it's another when it's someone with thousands of PVP battles and the results are abysmal.

 

Even the good players get on some bad losing streaks.  But in the long run, they more than make up for it.  It's not by accident.

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Bad Win Rates don't get there by accident, especially after more and more battles are played.

 

It's one thing when it's some newbie at 500 games in and he's getting crushed.  But it's another when it's someone with thousands of PVP battles and the results are abysmal.

 

Even the good players get on some bad losing streaks.  But in the long run, they more than make up for it.  It's not by accident.

To right, its luck. :Smile_trollface:

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Let me use some of the NA Server Fletcher Leaderboard for an example.  Here are the best Fletcher Leaders in the server right now:

3y9Tzw5.png

 

Next are some actually very good Fletcher players that have seen ample Battles with the ship.  57% WR for this amount of action is great, I'd be happy to see these guys below on my team.

5g2NZyb.jpg

 

But note that even these 57% WR Fletcher players, for as great as they're doing, are still leagues behind the Elites of this boat from the first picture.

 

I can dive even lower into the sub-50% group but there would be no point in doing that.  You can already see the trend with the above two pictures.

 

These guys from these two pictures don't get those high performance stats with plenty of battles played for the ship by accident.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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It's not hard to farm damage, where as it's harder to farm wins

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5 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

It's not hard to farm damage, where as it's harder to farm wins

The last part is the tricky part.  People flash screenshots a lot around here with high damage numbers and then blaming the team.  But I've seen enough of these matches where those high damage numbers in a loss are what I call, "Garbage Time Stats."

The game was over already.  The damage achieved past that point of no return was meaningless and would not have changed the outcome.

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Here's an example:  This garbage game topped my team.  Why should this be held in my favor?

shot-19.05.03_08.10.11-0825.jpg

shot-19.05.03_08.10.37-0565.jpg

Edited by crzyhawk

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10 hours ago, Brhinosaurus said:

On a small sample size, win rate means nothing.  A great player can lose 7 out of any 10 games, and a terrible player can win 7 out of 10.  You can't control who matchmaker gives you for teammates.

On a large sample size, win rate is the only stat that matters.  After enough battles all the weirdness with matchmaker and rng and everything else evens out and your win rate is indicative of your contribution to your team. 

While I agree somewhat with your synopsis, I don't that win rate is the only stat that matters. There are a lot of players that may play only on the weekend and probably only a couple of games a session at that. MM lottery tends to be at its weirdest on weekends in my experience as depending on when you log on it can be a sea of potatoes and you have to pray that you got less spuds on your team. Many games the two dds on your team yolo in the first 5 minutes, which causes the entire team to fall back and not play the objectives leading to the inevitable loss.

I personally would think that PR is a better measure as in imho it better reflects a players ability, it factors win rate and the actual contribution the player is making in games. From the WOWS stats page this is the formula they use : elements in order of importance: damage dealt, warship kills, win rate. Simply using win rate does not factor in if the player is improving the elements of game play that they can control the most i.e. the damage dealt.

 

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16 minutes ago, Rabin69 said:

While I agree somewhat with your synopsis, I don't that win rate is the only stat that matters. There are a lot of players that may play only on the weekend and probably only a couple of games a session at that. MM lottery tends to be at its weirdest on weekends in my experience as depending on when you log on it can be a sea of potatoes and you have to pray that you got less spuds on your team. Many games the two dds on your team yolo in the first 5 minutes, which causes the entire team to fall back and not play the objectives leading to the inevitable loss.

I personally would think that PR is a better measure as in imho it better reflects a players ability, it factors win rate and the actual contribution the player is making in games. From the WOWS stats page this is the formula they use : elements in order of importance: damage dealt, warship kills, win rate. Simply using win rate does not factor in if the player is improving the elements of game play that they can control the most i.e. the damage dealt.

 

PR kind of sucks too.  I think I'm fairly ok with the Cossack, but my PR is only 1655.  My average damage is only slightly above 40k.  However, my survival rate is, I believe, over 50%.  What I am doing is capping, spotting ships, spotting torpedoes, and routing out enemy DDs.  This is across 67 battles.  I'm not sure what the minimum battle count requirement is to assess your ability with any particular ship.  In fact there are plenty of battles where I literally sit still and spot so my team can damage island campers.

Edited by Amenhir

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Wr has always been kinda a meh metric. This is a team game. So your victory depends on 11 other people as well as you work with them. Personally, I would much rather have some sort of measurement that focused on teamwork.  Where things like spotting damage, concentrated fire on called out targets, base capping, aa are rewarded and recognized.

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11 hours ago, Captain_Rawhide said:

It seems that your final battle placement would be a much better indication of how you did. 

It all depends on what's important to you as a player. There are some folks out there who don't contribute well to the team, fail to support and help defend, or even just hide til late in the match to try and sneak up late and kill the very wounded folks who remain. I think they're all far less valuable than someone who is willing to make a sacrifice and an effort to get the win. Of course we're all just 1/12th of a team (or part of 1/4th if we're in a 3 man division.)

Because for me, the win is really the only thing I'm playing for - it is THE only stat that matters. Though I don't stop at some great ships or play low tiers a lot in order to be able to get a high win rate. I'd rather have close matches with more skilled players than just club seals... not that there aren't some really really bad people driving T9 and T10 ships all the time too.

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