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Nato101

The issue with WOWS in general & new players

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Disclaimer:

This isn't a naming-and-shaming exercise. The player has already aired their views in the forums. I am just quoting them and commenting on how such play/thinking impacts the game.
 

The problem:

19 hours ago, HellHammer9182 said:

I found a solution, I just stay at the edges of the map and keep any targets at max gun range, it's actually funny to see people scream at me in chat that I'm camping our running away, but if it's the only way to avoid getting torpedoed or getting targeted by a carrier then that's what i will do every match.


This new player's solution to torpedoes is to hide way behind everything else. Even after being given tips by other players, he totally ignored everything stated to him and chose this option instead. It's already ingrained in his head that if he's close to the enemy, he will eat torpedoes regardless.

Later on in their careers, these types of players go on to form clusters behind islands at high tiers, as the maps get bigger. From the start, they learn to focus on hiding, as being exposed leaves them open to damage. The more people hide, the more others are forced to hide as they don't want to be the only target for enemies. It's a self-feeding cycle.

shot-19_05.02_14_00.28-0163.jpg.958f4a3a4a70bbd4903651c2db70be39.jpg

 

I propose that WG:

  • Make very short educational videos/tests for new players (with rewards for watching in full and answering post-video questions) from all class' perspectives, showing how a particular scenario plays out.

For example, from a BB's perspective, shooting at another BB and sailing straight line and speed. Then cut to a DD stealth ambushing that BB, and then back to the BB being torped and eating shells.
Then, show the same scenario, but emphasise the BB changing speed and course, and show how that helps with avoiding eating shells, and later the missing torpedoes which are way forward due to the course and speed changes. Do the same for stealth mechanics, etc.

 

  • Make more open maps. Less islands. Lower-profile islands to allow shells and spotting but not torpedoes.

 

  • Reduce damage XP if the ship isn't directly spotted by the player, or if there is no direct LOS (island in the way)
    OR
    Reduce accuracy if there is no direct spotting and/or even further if there is no direct LOS (island in the way)

 

  • Collect stats regarding distances of engagements. Each BB should have an 'average firing range' stat. Each time a particular BB fires, its distance to the target is recorded and averaged out across the server.

 

  • This one requires a lot of work but could be the most effective. A post-battle advisor telling players what they could do to improve their game. For example, you could compare their damage output to the server average for their ship and advise them that they are either below or above the average. The stat collection thing as well. Record their average distances to targets and compare them with the server average. Advise them that they are being too cautious if their distances are significantly higher. There are many ways of going about this.



Other ideas that I can think of to fix this:
Add a distance-damage modifier. If you're dealing damage from 20K away all game, you will get less XP than the guy who is fighting from 12K. Make it relative to the gun's max distance. Not a huge bonus, but big enough to warrant taking damage. So a BB with a range of 15K fighting at 10K gets the same XP multiplier as a BB with a range of 20K, fighting at 13.3K. If he wants more XP, he has to expose himself to more danger, rather than being safe whilst everyone else is targeted. I understand that this isn't the best solution and potential damage taking isn't very different from this, but it doesn't seem to have an effect on play.

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I agree on the better education and instruction or players, but entirely disagree on removing islands since islands are not the issue and actually can help promote more aggressive gameplay for brawlers to better get within mid and close combat ranges.

If you remove islands you end up with the back white line huggers like I have seen players do on Ocean map far too many times. And Ocean map has absolutely no islands on it. So I really think islands actually help players at least get closer to front lines. Plus with CV meta you need to use an island preferably with tall mountain to shield you for a moment here and there when under air attacks depending on your ship type.

Players just need to learn to be more like sharks where you attack aggressively and staying on the move keeps you alive, sitting still is often what kills you, and not to only travel in strait lines either.

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There is a simpler solution for this and it's all about the map, specifically Ocean. This is the only "realistic" map we have... In RL an Admiral would have to be mad to send his high seas fleet into a dense archipelago of islands and reefs, and guess what? They largely didn't.

But they have game dynamics to worry about here, and player reactions (most players hate ocean why? No islands to hide behind, doh).

You cannot enforce team-fleet play, but you can induce it somewhat for those that stick around and finally learn how to play synergistically with your team, as opposed to yolo-ing off or just putzing about doing nothing. You can't force BB players to stop hanging way back, refusing to push, and just lobbing misses most of the battle, then scoring a few kills on low-HP ships that others worked hard to bring down into single-salvo killing range. There is no reasoning with obstinate stupidity.

I've proposed this many times on here: if your WR on a specific ship (not overall WR) is exceedingly poor, when you hit BATTLE! in your 35% WR New York you should get a message like "Your WR on this ship precludes you from playing in regular Random Battles and you are being moved to a Coop battle on the Ocean map in order to improve your skills; but also to avoid being a liability for your teams on Random. Thank you."

Edited by Stauffenberg44
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9 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

So I really think islands actually help players at least get closer to front lines.

No, it actually gets them thinking about being part of a fleet and learning to play as a team. Islands are the bane of noob-play.

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Wow ….. just wow.

First, I don't see this as the same size of a problem as you do. Obviously. I think trying to police how others play is a losing proposition from the very beginning, and I'm against it from the start just on that one basic premise.

Education is great; who's going to make the videos? If WoW does it, it costs them time and money; if some player does it, they lose control of the content or end up paying to have it edited. Either way, someone has to put in the time and effort, which either has to be donated or paid for.

Second, the kind of monitoring you're suggesting would be horrendously expensive in computer resources when you consider that, in order to be fair to everyone, you would have to monitor every player during every game, and then take time away from playing for the player to listen to the feedback. Time is money, especially for video games, where the number of games played means the number of camos, signal flags, premium consumables and other resources used. Do you really think WoW cares about a few campers enough to pay for the program so they can make less money?

Third, the majority of players HATE open maps; Ocean is an excellent example. Players in ships other than top tier BBs LOVE cover and need it to survive.

This entire proposal is one of those things that, when looked at from a purely academic viewpoint, could have possibilities; but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of really doing it suddenly the task has become gargantuan and hideously expensive in time and money and resources.

So …. I vote no.

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Maybe they will learn with music.

You've got to go through hell before you get to heaven.

If you want to get to heaven, you have to raise a little hell.

Heaven of course being a win.

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Why do players continue to believe in this fantasy, where you can actually teach the average player the game?

The vast majority of players are not engaged in the game and have only a hazy grasp of mechanics. They aren't interested in learning more, and nothing is going to change that.

I've watched these people in port chat for 3 and half years, I've tried to change some of them...guess what, they didn't want to hear about it.

The real problem is based on the fact that we have an arcade game, that only has complex mechanics to attract the historical and elite crowds. So it attracts the casual arcade type, but requires more time to learn, than they are willing to invest.

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The only way to teach these people is to use the carrot approach, dangling rewards all the time for learning the game.

Of course you could play devil's advocate and argue that WG needs as many clueless new players as possible. They are far more likely to make the mistake of buying themselves to higher tiers, turning up some direct profit.

Edited by warheart1992

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WG has had the worst record for teaching anything.

WG relies upon veteran players to do the teaching. ( Nobody does )

Wiki Sucks for any information about how to play. 

CC's provide stats and garbage in the same sentence.

WG offers nothing to the new player in the form of info for learning.

The Player base points the finger at the new player, not the design team. (Shame this is the norm.)

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This situation, the hiding behind islands, is exactly what CVs can be very good at solving. 

Now that means the player at the controls of the CV has to recognize this and actually go do it.  I know that some don't, can't really control that via the game, but the CV is perfectly designed to either sink them where they sit, or convince them that moving along is in their best interest.

This only exception to this are ships that WG designed specifically for that type of game play, the Mino for example.  Ships that are supposed to do this as one of their built in strengths, also tend to have fantastic AA.  That isn't just a coincidence.
 

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42 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

 

I've proposed this many times on here: if your WR on a specific ship (not overall WR) is exceedingly poor, when you hit BATTLE! in your 35% WR New York you should get a message like "Your WR on this ship precludes you from playing in regular Random Battles and you are being moved to a Coop battle on the Ocean map in order to improve your skills; but also to avoid being a liability for your teams on Random. Thank you."

Extremely bad idea. Sorry but I seriously hope WG never implements anything close to that. To deny players' access to random battles just because their WR with a certain ship doesn't meet a set standard. Besides, Co-Op does not teach a player the skills needed for randoms. This sounds alot like the Skilled Matchmaking issue so many people keep asking for. You can't just shove the not-so great players into co-op and expect queue times to remain the same. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, nrnstraswa said:

Extremely bad idea. Sorry but I seriously hope WG never implements anything close to that. To deny players' access to random battles just because their WR with a certain ship doesn't meet a set standard. Besides, Co-Op does not teach a player the skills needed for randoms. This sounds alot like the Skilled Matchmaking issue so many people keep asking for. You can't just shove the not-so great players into co-op and expect queue times to remain the same. 

 

 

Your point about queue times is valid enough, but you have to be tone deaf not to realise that frustration with MM is losing the game many players. Playing with potatoes that doom you to an almost certain loss is a total waste of time, not to mention the aforementioned frustration involved in the process.

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Eating torpedoes?  It is his own fault for driving in a straight line , same speed. People even do it eating salvo after salvo of shells too, only in a shorter frame of time. You have to think about that. If you are spotted for a long time and nobody is shooting at you and you can't see anything , better be changing your course and/or speed some, because some  DD is often going to be lining up and launching . The same applies when you are getting shot at and shot up from a ship , change your course and/or your speed. Long range salvos you can often just change your speed . Work for torps to , as it throws off the TDF, making the DD wait for a "good" shot. 

Edited by Strachwitz666

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54 minutes ago, _Lord_Scott_ said:

WG has had the worst record for teaching anything.

WG relies upon veteran players to do the teaching. ( Nobody does )

Wiki Sucks for any information about how to play. 

CC's provide stats and garbage in the same sentence.

WG offers nothing to the new player in the form of info for learning.

The Player base points the finger at the new player, not the design team. (Shame this is the norm.)

You're right! Basically newbs are tossed into a shark tank and good luck!

But we were all newbs at some point and learned, the hard way.

Noobs on the other hand (note the difference) are recalcitrant potatoes that fecklessly don't give a damn about learning and just do their own thing... a total team liability and source of endless frustration on here.

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World of Tanks recently introduced a better version of their "BootCamp" and it is essentially a single player co-op experience that teaches you all the basics. When you are done you get a free tank & some goodies so it is worth it to go and use it. Not sure why WoWS does not have something similar. They could use the "Campaign" system they have now, do it all in co-op, and you have to complete a simple learning campaign for each type of ship before you can move into PvP play. Does not have to be anything too technical, just teach how everything works on a ship like WoT does. Give out a good noob prize at the end of each one and we would be golden. It is very shortsighted not to have included this kind of material with the original game and somewhat of a boneheaded move. Just have to wonder how many people quit because some game mechanic seemed too complex... 

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49 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

World of Tanks recently introduced a better version of their "BootCamp" and it is essentially a single player co-op experience that teaches you all the basics. When you are done you get a free tank & some goodies so it is worth it to go and use it. Not sure why WoWS does not have something similar. They could use the "Campaign" system they have now, do it all in co-op, and you have to complete a simple learning campaign for each type of ship before you can move into PvP play. Does not have to be anything too technical, just teach how everything works on a ship like WoT does. Give out a good noob prize at the end of each one and we would be golden. It is very shortsighted not to have included this kind of material with the original game and somewhat of a boneheaded move. Just have to wonder how many people quit because some game mechanic seemed too complex... 

A great many games have boot camps, or academy's that provide new players a good outline and demonstration of game mechanics and rewed them for attending !  But, there zero chance WG would ever do anything.........  that would slow down the new meat, errrrrrr, new player in-game time and that would slow revenue !!!  They need bodies and new bodies are the outright best bodies so the veterans can slaughter them with clubs and crow  !!!

Again, WG will do zip, zero. zilch to slow down the abattoir; and the faster, the gorier, the messier and the more bodies there are, the better !  That's what arcade shooters do, eh?!

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2 hours ago, awiggin said:

The real problem is

The real problem is you've gone and changed your avatar (again, for like the one million and sixth time) and, once again, I don't know which old, dead geezer this one is. Where do you dig up this many old, croaked movie stars. Seriously, you're got more old dead personalities than the Hollywood Movie Star Cemetery. So who is this old famous corpse?

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2 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

The only way to teach these people is to use the carrot approach, dangling rewards all the time for learning the game.

Of course you could play devil's advocate and argue that WG needs as many clueless new players as possible. They are far more likely to make the mistake of buying themselves to higher tiers, turning up some direct profit.

That gives me an idea. How about adding (completely optional) training exercises that teach these things, as well as give rewards that will goad even the most stubborn into showing up. Them being optional removes that it feels like you are forced to do it, and the rewards could be, say, a 10 point commander for each nation, or some other nice reward. Actually 1,500 doubloons could be a good final reward, as that's the cost of the super commanders, right? This way you get to choose which you want, or to put it towards something else.

Example exercise: You need to make all shells from a salvo bounce. You start broadside, and are driving a ship with full 100mm armor, with no superstructure for obvious reasons. You are given simple instructions, and given time to take an angle to bounce the incoming shells, and then they fire. If they bounce, you pass. If they don't, you get another try.

Edited by Shoggoth_pinup

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It baffles me why people are against island humping so strongly...It clearly depends on situations and ship types. Yes, you may drive a BB who doesn't need to island humping but light cruisers are relying on islands to survive. Or they may be ambushing someone. Or they just need a minute to recover. Or maybe they just happen to pass behind an island...

For those who are misplaying their ships, honestly I don't see a big problem..Ships don't really sink..and next time this "potato" is not gonna be with you, with luck it's gonna be your enemy..If you vow to help all the players improve their skills, how do you find the time to enjoy your game?

Kudos to those who are trying to improve our gaming experience, really. But some players are just casual players who don't treat this as seriously.

Edited by liangshepherd

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3 hours ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

No, it actually gets them thinking about being part of a fleet and learning to play as a team. Islands are the bane of noob-play.

Yeah well tell that to most of the teams I get when on Ocean map... I know how to sail and attack on formation and as a team, and you may know how to do so, but most of the players do not seem to know how to. On ocean they act as if it’s every man for themselves and scatter in often useless directions, especially if a CV is present. 

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Well they can learn to there is my thought. I've had some great battles on Ocean where both teams fleet-up and angle across at each other Jutland style. You're right it often doesn't happen that way, but things can change.

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