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MEANN

The play after further review, call on the field stands

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This one is about Random team work. 

We seem to have an epidemic of stupid in all tiers. So I will attempt to put out a few top tips on making "team" a thing in randoms. And this is not a complete list. So I would love to have positive ideas posted with the idea of making everyone have better games.

  • follow the dd's to which ever cap they are headed to. 
  • attempt to divide evenly.
  • if someone is going opposite of where you think they should go or that you want to go but would make the split very unbalanced. go to the side that will need your help
  • look to create small fire teams 3 boats that will help each other. use their name "hey so and so" lets work this cap with the dd
  • think about and use the mini map with the rings for aa protection up so you can see if you are helping your team mates.
  • if a team mate is just rolling out on their own to a cap alone. 2 closest boats go with them. "only if a dd" very valuable resource to lose easily in the game
  • try to contest all of the caps if possible or at least the common cap points on a map
  • pay attention to a flank that is failing. See if the stronger side can re enforce
  • when being topr'd by a cv and in a bow on fight with a bb or a cruiser that can level your broad side, remain bow in. take the 5k torps vs 30k broadside ap dmg
  • yelling inspired no one to play better

As this post was intended to be a start of a list of good tips for everyone. Not complete at all but a beginning.... 

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I agree with you, but, how many times have people come on the forum asking for better teamwork?  It happens over and over again, and to no effect.  In the years I have been playing I can count the number of times I've had good teamwork in randoms on one hand.

So, you have two ways this can go. 

1. People will miraculously come together and play as a team, or more likely...

2. The game will continue to be what it is, a single player game with other people in it, each playing their own single player game.

The best you can do is division up with clan mates or friends.

 

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Ever watched 7U soccer? Herdball? I think that's what you're suggesting.

Consider this critique:

Following people and "grouping up" forms clusters of ships. Clusters of ships are not as effective as a smaller number of ships properly positioned. Think of this scenario: 5 of the same ships. 3 v 2. The 3 group up together and the 2 move out on opposite flanks. Eventually the two on the flanks will have the 3 ships in a horrible cross fire leading to massive broadside damage and citadel devastation. I would rather be a mobile 2 than a herded 3.

Grouping up to overlap AA sounds good, but leads to static play. Instead of having ships out doing damage, you have soldiers huddled together in a trench afraid to move.

On a side note: I love it when the enemy team groups up, especially when I'm in a DD. It is far easier to score big torpedo hits if there is a group of ships versus a lone or paired ship.

 

IMHO the losses in randoms result from poor positioning/navigation opposed to lack of teamwork. The DD and cruiser that rush a cap, get spotted, and nuked in the first 3 minutes are why teams lose. The BB that sits 15k off the back of a cap is why teams lose. Cruisers that are hiding behind islands unable to fire on a single target are why teams lose. If you want better play in randoms, people need to ask these questions:

What does the team comp/enemy comp look like?

Where do I expect the enemy team to set up?

Where do I expect my team to set up?

What are my ship's strengths?

Given answers to the above answers: What position would effectuate the greatest map control or damage done by my vessel? The answer to this question is most certainly not "herded up 5 other ships".

 

Happy hunting.

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First and most important Lesson. Lemming trains LOSE games. You end up isolated in one cap. Game over.

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1 hour ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

Ever watched 7U soccer? Herdball? I think that's what you're suggesting.

Consider this critique:

Following people and "grouping up" forms clusters of ships. Clusters of ships are not as effective as a smaller number of ships properly positioned. Think of this scenario: 5 of the same ships. 3 v 2. The 3 group up together and the 2 move out on opposite flanks. Eventually the two on the flanks will have the 3 ships in a horrible cross fire leading to massive broadside damage and citadel devastation. I would rather be a mobile 2 than a herded 3.

Grouping up to overlap AA sounds good, but leads to static play. Instead of having ships out doing damage, you have soldiers huddled together in a trench afraid to move.

On a side note: I love it when the enemy team groups up, especially when I'm in a DD. It is far easier to score big torpedo hits if there is a group of ships versus a lone or paired ship.

 

IMHO the losses in randoms result from poor positioning/navigation opposed to lack of teamwork. The DD and cruiser that rush a cap, get spotted, and nuked in the first 3 minutes are why teams lose. The BB that sits 15k off the back of a cap is why teams lose. Cruisers that are hiding behind islands unable to fire on a single target are why teams lose. If you want better play in randoms, people need to ask these questions:

What does the team comp/enemy comp look like?

Where do I expect the enemy team to set up?

Where do I expect my team to set up?

What are my ship's strengths?

Given answers to the above answers: What position would effectuate the greatest map control or damage done by my vessel? The answer to this question is most certainly not "herded up 5 other ships".

 

Happy hunting.

I was not suggesting that herding was an option, in fact i was suggesting equal split or at least move with the dds. I dont disagree with your assessment. I just think it is too complicated for most players as they will not "know" how to look at the comp of a team and determine the best dispersion of that team. 

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1 hour ago, GSXstage1 said:

First and most important Lesson. Lemming trains LOSE games. You end up isolated in one cap. Game over.

Lemming trains usually lose because while the train may seem like team work, it's really just a bunch of individuals all moving in the same direction but continuing to think and play as individuals.  And when some of the start to get super cautious, everybody in the train gets super cautious, rather than understanding that they have a numerical advantage and can overwhelm and overrun the outnumbered enemy in front of them.  Oh, sometimes you will get a train that sorta semi-pushes, but the result usually is that a good group of outnumbered defenders that know what they're doing will whittle down the timid, cautious lemming push, and the train will slowly disappear below the waves.  If you're going to use a train to its maximum advantage, you have to PUSH HARD as a group, not in dribs and drabs that can be whittled down as slowly as it "pushes".

But the reality is that unless you're playing competitively with everyone in the push on comms, a lemming train is solo players just isn't going to have the coordination and determination to make use of their numerical advantage, unless the enemy you're pushing into is even more stupid than the train is (which can happen, of course).  But the thing is that because too many of the train's players aren't that good and don't understand why their train succeeded (i.e. bad opponents), they end up learning the wrong lesson and think that their lemming train was a great success, when it was really just dumb luck (in having an enemy that was worse than your train was).

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14 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Lemming trains usually lose because while the train may seem like team work, it's really just a bunch of individuals all moving in the same direction but continuing to think and play as individuals.  And when some of the start to get super cautious, everybody in the train gets super cautious, rather than understanding that they have a numerical advantage and can overwhelm and overrun the outnumbered enemy in front of them.  Oh, sometimes you will get a train that sorta semi-pushes, but the result usually is that a good group of outnumbered defenders that know what they're doing will whittle down the timid, cautious lemming push, and the train will slowly disappear below the waves.  If you're going to use a train to its maximum advantage, you have to PUSH HARD as a group, not in dribs and drabs that can be whittled down as slowly as it "pushes".

But the reality is that unless you're playing competitively with everyone in the push on comms, a lemming train is solo players just isn't going to have the coordination and determination to make use of their numerical advantage, unless the enemy you're pushing into is even more stupid than the train is (which can happen, of course).  But the thing is that because too many of the train's players aren't that good and don't understand why their train succeeded (i.e. bad opponents), they end up learning the wrong lesson and think that their lemming train was a great success, when it was really just dumb luck (in having an enemy that was worse than your train was).

Sir. I don't care why they lose, or win for that matter. I have been involved in both scenarios and after 11,000 games the why does not enter into it. People are not going to all of a sudden play a lemming train correctly. Self preservasion overtakes strategy and the trains fail. So, as I said, Don't lemming train and you will have a better chance at winning.

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8 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

Sir. I don't care why they lose, or win for that matter. I have been involved in both scenarios and after 11,000 games the why does not enter into it. People are not going to all of a sudden play a lemming train correctly. Self preservasion overtakes strategy and the trains fail. So, as I said, Don't lemming train and you will have a better chance at winning.

So, I peeked at your games and you are mostly a T 5-6 player. The meta and skill is better and the radar/hydro become very prevalent above T7. where as you have 500ish games at T10 I have 3k plus. Also I have played competitive in clan wars every season. Which is another 1000 games at T10. Playing against most of the top 100 clans on the server. The train of failure can be curbed  by a couple of players forming a team of 3 to 4 and controlling a cap. But let me put context on team play. Your clan is rank 538 on the server for over all strength. HATE my clan is 43 in the same list. Na wows and number clan page. So you have 11k games and are in a clan that is not in the top 500 and are giving advice on how players should play as a team and you cant get your own team of 24 to work together 7 v 7. Perhaps you should come to Sunday Fun Day at our Clan Discord. It is mostly typhoon and hurricane clans there. We have a pick up scrim format. Players from alot of the top clans come to help and play and advise the up and coming clans on getting better. Never know who mite end up in your team, we have guys from Kraken, RNG, RQL, TXT, TNG, we have had in the past folks form ZR come to sunday fun day. Message me privately and ill give you an invite. But take a less  I know stance on the forum when it comes to things that you are still improving on. 11k games is not a indicator of success. Only determination. Now that you know that there is a place to get better, you can choose to continue doing what you have for 11k games or perhaps look at what other folks are doing  for ideas. 

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29 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

Sir. I don't care why they lose, or win for that matter. I have been involved in both scenarios and after 11,000 games the why does not enter into it. People are not going to all of a sudden play a lemming train correctly. Self preservasion overtakes strategy and the trains fail. So, as I said, Don't lemming train and you will have a better chance at winning.

GSX, understanding why things happen matters.  Not caring about understanding means that you have a less complete understanding of whatever situation you're commenting upon.  Also, when you do understand the why, you can use that to your advantage.  For example, if you're  facing a lemming train, do whatever you can to try to blunt their push and get them to slow up and possibly even get them into a more static situation so that the part of your team on the other side of the map has time to push through the rest of the enemy team.

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27 minutes ago, MEANN said:

So, I peeked at your games and you are mostly a T 5-6 player. The meta and skill is better and the radar/hydro become very prevalent above T7. where as you have 500ish games at T10 I have 3k plus. Also I have played competitive in clan wars every season. Which is another 1000 games at T10. Playing against most of the top 100 clans on the server. The train of failure can be curbed  by a couple of players forming a team of 3 to 4 and controlling a cap. But let me put context on team play. Your clan is rank 538 on the server for over all strength. HATE my clan is 43 in the same list. Na wows and number clan page. So you have 11k games and are in a clan that is not in the top 500 and are giving advice on how players should play as a team and you cant get your own team of 24 to work together 7 v 7. Perhaps you should come to Sunday Fun Day at our Clan Discord. It is mostly typhoon and hurricane clans there. We have a pick up scrim format. Players from alot of the top clans come to help and play and advise the up and coming clans on getting better. Never know who mite end up in your team, we have guys from Kraken, RNG, RQL, TXT, TNG, we have had in the past folks form ZR come to sunday fun day. Message me privately and ill give you an invite. But take a less  I know stance on the forum when it comes to things that you are still improving on. 11k games is not a indicator of success. Only determination. Now that you know that there is a place to get better, you can choose to continue doing what you have for 11k games or perhaps look at what other folks are doing  for ideas. 

Oh Lord. Stop with the tech crap. I play mostly tier 8 to 10 now. You guys read so much into stuff that isn't there. I Don't want or care about stats. It's a game. Id rather lose and have fun than fill my head with alot of garbage when so many other things from my REAL daily life need to be in there. i'll stay average and be happy.

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2 hours ago, GSXstage1 said:

Oh Lord. Stop with the tech crap. I play mostly tier 8 to 10 now. You guys read so much into stuff that isn't there. I Don't want or care about stats. It's a game. Id rather lose and have fun than fill my head with alot of garbage when so many other things from my REAL daily life need to be in there. i'll stay average and be happy.

What "tech crap"?  There was no "tech crap" in @MEANN 's post.  :Smile_facepalm:

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This is all nice on paper, but does not work in practice. Sadly, most players dont have map awarness, dont understad about map pressure and crossfires, players have a tendence to folow the others. And just to make things worse, the current CV meta which punish players sailling alone and rewards lemming trains/blobs. 

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As a DD, I used to invite the 2 closest ships to me at spawn to join me in a division so that at least they have an indication that I am wanting to work together. 1 in 50 joined the division and it felt like 1 in 20 of those had voice activated.  NOT that you need voice to play as a team but it definitely does help being more effective being able to ask for radar or let them know that they need to turn because if I was that missing DD, that is where I would be.

I stopped doing that when I realized that the people that reject the invites are a thousand times better players that those that accept the invite.  Now, if my clanmates are not interested, I hang out in Discord and look for a division there if I want some teamwork in random games .  Sometimes I get one, sometimes not. 

 

And no, the in-game looking for division is used by illiterate rejects that cannot read.  If I say I am looking for a T10 Random game, it does not mean that I want to do an operation, my blacklist is made up of these rejects.

Edited by Squib_Surefire

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