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Gavroche_

There are no hard counters to CVs

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0.8.0 really made CVs a lot easier to play and more accessible to less experienced players. Changes to AA, increase in strike capacity, and the removable of functional fighters really removed any hard counters to CVs.

 

With the old RTS system, a strong AA ships were able to shut down a CV completely. When a old Shokaku or Lexington only had ~24 TBs and ~24-36 DBs, you really could not afford to carelessly waste planes. Back then, AA was more effective by having longer ranges and the ability to shoot down planes without having to deplete the health of an entire squadron first. A single Wooster would singlehandedly shut down large sections of the map for a CV. The strong presence of an enemy CV’s fighters also made striking a much more challenging experience, with inexperienced CVs getting completely blocked off from doing damage. Individually, each of these might not shut down a CV, but together there were times that even highly experienced CVs had difficulty doing damage until late in the game.

 

Now, is there really anything that you can do to shut down a CV?

You can blob together, but that’s a pretty suboptimal solution. You give up a lot of positioning you could have, which translates to reduced map presence, less caps, and the possibility of being flanked. Furthermore, it doesn’t necessarily even bother a CV because they can just go around bombing all the ships not in the blob. Later in the game, the the blob starts to separate, AA ships start to die, and AA mounts start getting destroyed, they can always return to bomb you.

Another option might be to play AA ships, but those are pretty soft counters as well. In a death ball you run into the same problems as before and being isolated is even worse. It’s not impossible to bomb even a Wooster in a Shokaku, and a Midway or Hakuryu can easily trade 20-30 planes (probably just 15-20 if you’re fairly decent) for 3/4 the HP of a Wooster, which is actually a fairly good trade for the CV in the larger picture.

CVs can fairly easily and fairly consistently farm all game, and there’s really not much that anyone can do to stop them.

 

Overall I think that under the RTS system CVs were much harder to play, and much less impactful in terms of damage than the current system.

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Another one in favor of counterplay. I'm sure WG is listening, I can only hope something is in the works

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16 minutes ago, Gavroche_ said:

CVs were much harder to play, and much less impactful in terms of damage

They were also more brutal in terms of inequity of capability matched against each other. A noob who hadn't mastered strafing yet because he'd only just unlocked a carrier capable of it, or who was in a Bogue going up against an Independence, was absolutely screwed in terms of his fighters' influence on the battle. He was likely to lose them all quickly, and that would be that. Soon after that he would lose his attack component, and then he was done.

They might have rescued RTS CV by removing strafe and manual drop, but that still hands an advantage to naturally gifted multitaskers. This way is better, despite its flaws.

For every vid I see showing a CV driver bringing down the hammer of doom, I see one in which his planes get cut to pieces. Do that too often and you will be sending out incomplete squadrons that can't do enough damage fast enough to change the outcome.

Get caught out by a fast DD that sneaks through and you are finished. That's your hard counter. And the upcoming French line will have the fastest destroyers in the game, at any tier, in large numbers.

Is balans, comrade.

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AA cruisers WOULD shut down sections of the map even now, except for the fact that people keep finding glitches in WG's implementation of strike mechanics which allows planes to bypass AA entirely more than half the time. 

 

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Lowering the skill floor / making CVs more accessible was literally the objective of the rework. Hard counters aren't generally great for game play.

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If you don't care about your planes you can send them all against the other CV. That is, only if it's refusing to move the entire match which happens a lot. You might actually have some planes left to do something with.\

Yep, CVs rarely even have to MOVE THEIR SHIPS and can sit untouched most of the game.

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Minotaur and Worcester at T10 is pretty hard to overcome. I suggest that CVs are not the problem. Its Midway that is grossly overpowered.

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49 minutes ago, _1204_ said:

Another one in favor of counterplay. I'm sure WG is listening, I can only hope something is in the works

At this point only submarines will have solid counterplay of being able to dive deep enough to be immune from all air attacks unless the planes end up with Depth Charges. You can then earn yourself some nice Karma points by making a bee line right for the enemy CVs and promptly sink them.

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1 hour ago, Gavroche_ said:

 

 

Overall I think that under the RTS system CVs were much harder to play, and much less impactful in terms of damage than the current system.

If you think this, you are beyond nuts, Gavroche.  Sorry.   RTS CVs were devastatingly powerful!!!  VASSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTLLLLLLYYY more so than the reworked carriers!!!

 

Edited by Crucis
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45 minutes ago, Ramagar_RoK said:

Remove strafing.  Fixed.

 

Not true.  Removing strafing from RTS would have only been the first step.  The reality is that multitasking would remain a serious problem with the RTS model even with Strafing and manual attacks removed.

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5 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

At this point only submarines will have solid counterplay of being able to dive deep enough to be immune from all air attacks unless the planes end up with Depth Charges. You can then earn yourself some nice Karma points by making a bee line right for the enemy CVs and promptly sink them.

Subs will be OP against all surface ships...

...because almost no one understands how they actually worked by the close of 1945. Most of the ASW techniques from that era are still classified.

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3 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Subs will be OP against all surface ships...

...because almost no one understands how they actually worked by the close of 1945. Most of the ASW techniques from that era are still classified.

Nobody cares.  We know exactly how AA defense worked in WW2 and ended up with this mess.  Did you play the Halloween event in subs?  How much like ww2 was that?  I would not expect much in the way of realism, offense or defense.

Edited by T_O_dubl_D
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50 minutes ago, Ramagar_RoK said:

Remove strafing CVs.  Fixed.

Fixed that for ya.

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53 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

For every vid I see showing a CV driver bringing down the hammer of doom, I see one in which his planes get cut to pieces. Do that too often and you will be sending out incomplete squadrons that can't do enough damage fast enough to change the outcome.

To this point I saw in this forum a midway captain say he was getting ripped to shreds and by the end of the gsme he only had 7 planes left and barely won and survived the game.

He had a screenshot of the battle.  He did 172,000 damage.

The poor dear. I'm sure he was he was really suffering.  Give me a break with this bull crapargument.

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34 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

They were also more brutal in terms of inequity of capability matched against each other. A noob who hadn't mastered strafing yet because he'd only just unlocked a carrier capable of it, or who was in a Bogue going up against an Independence, was absolutely screwed in terms of his fighters' influence on the battle. He was likely to lose them all quickly, and that would be that. Soon after that he would lose his attack component, and then he was done.

They might have rescued RTS CV by removing strafe and manual drop, but that still hands an advantage to naturally gifted multitaskers. This way is better, despite its flaws.

For every vid I see showing a CV driver bringing down the hammer of doom, I see one in which his planes get cut to pieces. Do that too often and you will be sending out incomplete squadrons that can't do enough damage fast enough to change the outcome.

Get caught out by a fast DD that sneaks through and you are finished. That's your hard counter. And the upcoming French line will have the fastest destroyers in the game, at any tier, in large numbers.

Is balans, comrade.

I agree. Confirmation bias is pretty rampant on the forums, particularly when it comes to CVs. 

Honestly, anything that can breach the allied lines and rush the carrier will counter it. CVs don't do damage quickly so if the CV is pressed he is in trouble. It's just that most of the time the CV is well out of range behind allied lines. Sneakier DDs are good at outflanking or breaching the lines, but high-tier CAs that have good AA do it too. I had a Salem do that to me in Midway yesterday. I move the CV to the weaker flank t help support it and reduce flight time and the next thing I knew a full-health Salem slipped through and got into firing range on me and because he could match my speed I couldn't outrun him. I hit him repeatedly with torps and DBs but a Salem can easily out damage Midway and his AA was more than capable of blunting most of my attacks. I never got him below 2/3 health before he sank me. I've also had to run from Hindenburgs and Henris which have breached the lines or made it into flanking positions. Honestly I fear fast, high-tier heavy cruisers with AA more than I do DDs. Gunboat DDs are irritating but they have to reveal themselves to shoot at me and their best protection against me is to smoke, which requires them to stop.  High tier CVs are very large and have a lot of HP so it takes gunboat DDs a while to really be a problem. Torp boats that get into firing position are a definite threat. 

 

 

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Not sure why hard counters are necessary. This game jettisoned the hard-counter RPS logic years ago in favor of much softer counters, and has benefited from that shift.

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1 hour ago, Ramagar_RoK said:

Remove strafing.  Fixed.

 

So let's examine this "Fix".

Remove strafe. Now I lump all of my strike squadrons into a big blob and overwhelm AA and strike at will. Even when fighters are present I just tie them up with my fighter and fly passed them to do the same thing as if there were no fighters at all.

As a matter of fact after the addition of exit strafe. The biggest complaint I saw was "I can't just tie up the other CVs fighters and fly my blob of strike squadrons passed them like they didn't even exist anyways".

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Well last night was in my Repub, having a whale of a game, 191k damage, 3 kills and most of my health left... a Montana running almost dead and a Conqueror I was certain was going to go down to my guns...Kraken in sight.  Oh...the enemy Midway says time for Morpheous to die... ONE flight of torp planes and 10+ torp hits and.....gone...nothing I could do, even shot down 3 planes and dodge some of one set of torps...  Am more positive than ever that CVs need to be removed from the game.... I see a good amount of complaints in the chat and never..."oh boy CVs...I love CVs..I am so glad CVs are in the game"

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Hard counter? The hard counter SHOULD be another CV. I'm told CV's don't attack each other because God tier AA and fighters makes them unassailable by each other. They are the only ship in fleet which can apparently stand alone against CV attack. If that's the case, well, I can think of simple adjustments that can be made to bring them right in line with everyone else.

I can hear the whinging already.

Edited by Don_Alvarez

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So here's the thing. I do agree that there's no hard counter in the same way that a battleship can angle towards another battleship to ensure all those AP rounds bounce instead of pen. But then again, said battleship can always switch to HE.

And therein lies in the issue. HE is the counter to any hard counter when dealing with most surface ships. If you can't pen with AP, switch to HE.

It's not exactly the best comparison, but I think you see what I'm getting at.

The proper counter for dealing with CVs is to form up in small groups of two or three and ensure everyone there sets their proper AA sector. Some planes will get through, yes, but the CV player might lose so many planes in the process that they will be penalized by this later in the match. When I play CV, I won't just dive head first into strong AA unless it's critical I try, for example to take out a cruiser on only a sliver of health that absolutely needs to die. Note: I did say small groups. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to have a giant mega blob lemming train as it's way overkill as a deterrent. You don't need that many and anyone claiming this to be the case is someone who enjoys losing every match.

Obviously, the problem here is that there's no easy way for a *single ship* to counter CVs, which given it's a team based game makes sense ... until you realize that at least half the players on your team are potatoes that ride the short bus and can't necessarily be relied upon. But you'd be surprised sometimes.

Now that being said, the fact that there's no easy assured way to completely shut down a carrier strike is also the reason why carrier strikes are all about the constant annoying tickle instead of big alpha hits like that seen from battleships and destroyers (or RTS CVs of old). With those ships, if you make a single mistake and they capitalize on it, you can die instantly. Period. A half dozen 20k damage torps don't merely tickle in the same way that 5k carrier torps do. The accumulation of torps from several attacks back to back DO hurt a hell of a lot, but in the time it takes to do that, you have the opportunity to set your AA sector or seek AA assistance from an ally. And hopefully, you have allies who know to come to your aid, including your own team's carriers with their fighters.

Is it a perfect solution? Maybe not ... but the way to balance out the ability for a single AA ship to hard counter a CV would be to *drastically* increase a CV's damage output to account for all the added plane losses and time spent getting back to the battle with a fresh squad. And that would REALLY penalize those surface ships that do not have good AA as they'd get wrecked crazy fast and NO ONE wants that. At all.

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36 minutes ago, Crucis said:

If you think this, you are beyond nuts, Gavroche.  Sorry.   RTS CVs were devastatingly powerful!!!  VASSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTLLLLLLYYY more so than the reworked carriers!!!

 

BUT if you did dodge the torp drop, it was a while before they came back and you might have some fighter support...as stated my Repub was sunk by ONE flight of Midway torpedo planes...he got 3 good drops on me and it was over....I dont' see a whole lot of differences...

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The counter to the CV on the enemy team *should* be the CV on your team. However some genius took player controlled fighter squads out of the mix, so now CV vs CV fights don't happen

The carrier's NUMBER ONE job is to provide air cover for the ships of the fleet, but that ability is gone. 

History has repeatedly shown that ships without air cover are sitting ducks. Sure, their AA guns can shoot down some planes, but most of the attacking aircraft are downed by friendly fighters. 

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54 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

At this point only submarines will have solid counterplay of being able to dive deep enough to be immune from all air attacks unless the planes end up with Depth Charges. You can then earn yourself some nice Karma points by making a bee line right for the enemy CVs and promptly sink them.

I like your thinking.

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