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The Current State of DD vs. CV

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Yes, another one of these threads about CVs
 

Spoiler

I want to make this clear: I do not believe CVs to be OP, and I am not here to say they are; my intention is to highlight the impact CVs have on the game, both directly and indirectly. Another note, what I'm talking about is based on my experience playing tier IX and mainly tier X destroyers of several nations in both CV and non-CV games. Finally, all of this is just my opinion, and if you happen to not like or disagree with that I have to say, then more power to ya. Now that that's out of the way, lets get into the beef of things:



Its no secret that DD life has been very difficult with the prevalence of CVs flooding the queue. On average at least 3 of every 5 games will have a CV in it. Shouldn't be too big an issue right? For a CA or a BB, mostly not. For a DD however, CV presence makes life absolutely miserable against any CV that's even slightly competent. The trouble with playing a DD in a CV game at Tier X is not so much the damage output that a CV can do to a destroyer, but more lies with the fact that the presence of a carrier forces you, as a destroyer, to play a certain way, because playing any other way will be punished very very heavily if you catch the attention of a carrier. The damage that they can do, its not fun, sure, but with the possible exception of Midway, and to a lesser extent Lexington HE Dive Bombers, the damage is not the issue here. Think of the current DD vs CV situation as playing a BB back in the days when OWSF was still a thing. The problem with stealth firing is that it is a very frustrating mechanic to play against, because the only real counter-play option as that BB is just to hope that the DD's aim sucks. The same holds true for CVs in the current state of the game when it comes to destroyers. Outside of shooting the planes down, which lets face it, most DDs don't have the greatest AA in the world, and even the ones that do like Gearing or Grozovoi need a full AA spec to defend themselves reliably. Because of this, DDs are easy prey for a CV, and with that fact, a DD is forced to stay very close to their team for the first half of the game, which severely hinders the role of a destroyer at all, and that is the biggest problem with the current state of DD vs CV. 

CVs effectively act as an "on/off" switch for the entire point of a destroyer. A DD's primary job is capture point and maintaining vision control for their team. Because of this, DD operations are generally very independent and is often why the impact of bad DD players vs good ones on the outcome of a game is so prevalent, but that's a topic for another day. Back to the matter at hand; DD operations are generally very independent themselves but have a vital impact on the outcome of a game. But this is the biggest problem, any good CV player can completely shut any of that down and cost a DD at least half their HP for even trying. Yes, I can hear you already clacking away at your keyboards "Turn your AA off until you're about to get spotted and you'll be harder for the CV to find". Yes, that is true, but also consider the number of other things that can spot a destroyer. Radar and other DDs are the two most significant and common spotting threats to a DD. Once a DD has been spotted in an area, whether they fall undetected or not, a determined CV will hunt you down without too much issue. The ultimate result is forcing DD players to hang back towards the rest of their team, because they really just don't have the AA power to reliably defend themselves unless they're an AA spec Gearing or Groz, but even then if the enemy CV is good they will still get at least 1 strike off on you, with damage ranging from only 1 or 2k HP to potentially half your HP pool depending on the nation and type of planes involved. This remains true even with friendly AA support. Its a no-win situation, your only hope as a DD when being focused by a CV is praying that the enemy CV's aim sucks. Other than that you're pretty much SOL unless you can chew through the squadron via AA which is never the most reliable tactic. As a DD, your role and ability to perform your duties as a DD is effectively turned off by the presence of a CV. All you can do is really just hope to be ignored, which by any good CV the chances of that are slim to none the second you get spotted. 

Now, I am aware that the CV round start delay is in the works, but while it will definitely give a bit of breathing room at the start of the game, it will ultimately fail to solve the problem. While there is a significant difference between being spotted at 18:00 against being spotted at 19:15, the ultimate result is still the same. As a DD, you're still being forced to play that same certain way, hanging back huddling near friendly AA if you wish to survive. And as the match progresses, however, even this becomes increasingly unreliable as the attrition of battle sets in; AA mounts are destroyed on friendly battleships and cruisers, and usually the DD as well. This leaves an even bigger gap in AA defenses for CV players to exploit and increases both your own and your team's overall vulnerability to air attack. The fact herein is really that even huddling with your team won't always save you, which defeats the purpose of huddling with your team to begin with. Just like a DD in the RTS CV version, a CV's impact on the match grows as the match progresses, just like a destroyer's would.

Really, the ultimate problem is the fact that CVs, as a DD player, will effectively force you to play a certain way, because playing any other way will cost you a significant chunk of HP with nonexistent counter-play options outside of smoke, which will not always be available. With how easily a CV can adjust their attack runs on the fly, it would take more skill to miss the target than it would to hit. CVs will severely punish, to great effect, what would otherwise be good play and positioning from a DD. A CV literally turns the role of a DD on a team into the start of a bad joke, and punishes DDs for playing DDs, basically. DDs have 0 freedom unless you're a full AA Groz or Gearing, but even both of those are a coin toss whether or not it will really help to any significant effect, especially later in the game (again, attrition of battle; AA mounts being knocked out from enemy fire and past air attacks). While DDs are by no stretch of the imagination unplayable, life can be a whole lot more challenging than it needs to be. Life as a DD was already hard enough, but now some games can be that much more incredibly frustrating to play in if the CV decides to focus on you, which a lot of CV players will target DDs first. A fair amount dont, but a fair amount do. Which is just terribly unfun to play against.

Of course, there is an old saying that does "Complaining about a problem without proposing a solution is called whining." That's not what I'm here to do. I have 3 suggestions for possible solutions to help give DD players a little more breathing room in CV matches. These are all, as far as I am aware or have seen, never been suggested before, but if they have been suggested elsewhere and refuted then well, refute them again I guess. (Also if you wouldn't mind, also link the thread where the idea was proposed first, thanks) 

 

Spoiler

Note: I do believe CVs should have an impact on the gameplay of DDs, but not to the extent that they currently do. Before the rework, the only significant counters to a good DD player is another good DD player; DDs have a significant impact on the flow of a game and can potentially turn what looks to be a roflstomp into the comeback of the century. I do believe that DDs should be impacted and play differently in the presence of a CV, but the current impact that exists takes things to the extremes, punishing DDs for simply being DDs. This is extremely frustrating to any DD player, being forced to play a certain way; it is my belief that no game should ever force players to play the game a certain way because of a single factor, in this case, the presence of a CV. That being said, there do needs to exist a way for CVs to impact destroyer gameplay as well and they do have their place in the game. Just needs to be worked on. 

1.) Rework the way plane attacks operate. This is a very extreme option, and will be, if even possible at all, very very difficult to pull off. This effects mostly rocket planes and dive bombers (especially USN). The current iteration of CVs, it is very easy for CVs at adjust their attack runs on the fly, which makes dodging and any form of counterplay extremely difficult. With the old RTS system of carries, bombers had a line called the Line of No Return, which means that the second that line is crossed, the bombers are committed to the drop and cannot be readjusted. I propose some sort of similar system, keeping the elements of manually controlling a large, single squadron but still retaining some element of "commitment" from the old RTS system. Torpedo bombers are fine as is attack-wise, but I propose a system of dive and rocket attacks to have an element of commitment to a direction, being unable, or very slot to, turn in either direction once the attack run initiates, increasing the value of good plane placement to maximize hits across the bow and stern of a ship. Again, this is a very, very extreme option and probably will never happen.

2.) Rework DD air detection. A simple fix, simply decrease the air detection of DDs further, thus increasing their potential to both hide from, and defend While the first buff did significantly help, unless the DD is spotted by other means, I believe that this change, by decreasing the air detection range, will help throw off accurate attacks against a DD without making attacking them impossible unless the DD is spotted by other means. If this makes any sense, think of it this way: 
A DD is spotted by a CV at a distance that the attack run will pretty much have to be launched almost the second the squadron spots the destroyer for the most accurate attack, rewarding good plane placement to catch the DD nose or stern to attack for maximum hits as well as good reflexes. If the attack is not launched almost immediately, the resulting attack will be far less accurate due to there being a much narrower gap between the attack location and DD position. Again, this is probably an extreme option.  

3.) My last, very simple solution is to simply beef up destroyer AA capabilities to improve their defense against carriers, especially those that will drop fighters over a destroyer to keep them spotted, and getting them focus fired heavily. While proposal 2 would help to alleviate this, the simplest solution I can think of that would help improve the amount of freedom and defense a DD has in a CV game would simply just beef up their AA defense not quite to cruiser or even Groz/Gearing levels, but enough to actually being able to reliably shoot down planes more consistently, although the weakness with this, again, is the attrition of battle. This is a very simple suggestion that ultimately will probably fail to fully fix the problem, but will at least help. 
Another possible variation of this would also just be decrease damage on CVs overall, which would help lower their effectiveness against DDs so the DD isnt a quarter at least of their HP in the first 2-4 minutes with almost nothing that can be done about it, sure, but will also cripple their damage on other classes, which I don't think is a good idea.

This is my take on the current situation of CV vs DD interactions. Again, all of this is just my opinion, and my suggested solutions are definitely far from perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like to know everyone else's opinions on the matter, and other possible solutions that you all may think would work better. Discuss~

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33 minutes ago, Destroyer_Zekakaze said:

Think of the current DD vs CV situation as playing a BB back in the days when OWSF was still a thing. The problem with stealth firing is that it is a very frustrating mechanic to play against, because the only real counter-play option as that BB is just to hope that the DD's aim sucks. The same holds true for CVs in the current state of the game when it comes to destroyers.

Except that smoke detection and owsf were patched to remove the problems... while cvs still chunk 50% per pass on dds...

Your suggestions dont seem unreasonable. Bigger drop spreads when targetting dds... or wider overall rocket/bomb dispersion might help as well... youll still hit a bb but a dd can actually try to get skinny successfully again... and rockets would whittle them a little more slowly.

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46 minutes ago, Destroyer_Zekakaze said:

A DD's primary job is capture point and maintaining vision control for their team.

Wrong.

This is not how WG defines the primary role of a DD.

Ask them to define the new role.

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17 minutes ago, Xanshin said:

Bigger drop spreads when targetting dds... or wider overall rocket/bomb dispersion might help as well... youll still hit a bb but a dd can actually try to get skinny successfully again... and rockets would whittle them a little more slowly.

I thought of that as well, but the problem with that is that the game doesn’t have any way of recognizing what target the reticule is over, and is a static target that doesn’t change because it is completely manually aimed, and because of that the game cant increase the amount of spread just because a DD is the target; the game engine has no way of recognizing that. 

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15 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Wrong.

This is not how WG defines the primary role of a DD.

Ask them to define the new role.

Is that so? 

Tell me then, what would you call the primary role of a DD then?

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@Destroyer_Zekakaze

Have you tried the new CV?

 

DDs that are getting destroyed by CVs are the ones that doesn't move at all, at least when it comes to attacks, as for the spotting, we had it even better pre-rework....and I see that you played with pre-rework CV, so I believe you also know what it was to be "truthfully" permaspotted.

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7 minutes ago, Destroyer_Zekakaze said:

Is that so? 

Tell me then, what would you call the primary role of a DD then?

It doesn't matter what I think.

What matters is what WG thinks the primary role of a DD should be. Its obviously not scouting or capping...because airplanes scout fundamentally better and capping is best done by cruisers now.

WG has stated they didnt like the concealment meta...and revived CVs in a bid to change it.

I'd love to hear what they WANT the meta to be...

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I just think as things stand CVs should not be able to see DDs or damage them at all. The planes are pretty much immune to the DD (with the very odd exception in T10) and can strike with impunity so I think it should be the same the other way around. There is no counterplay to a CV at the moment you just have to sail around being spotted hoping the planes go away soon and all the ships on the enemy team stop shooting you . Having no interaction between the two would solve this, the CVs could fight the ships which are more likely to be in groups (which is how AA is supposed to work and those ships CAN actually group up) and have proper AA. The DDs would be then free to spot other ships and cap as per before the CV rework. The numbers of DDs in high tier games is speaking for itself at the moment. This rework does not seem to have been thought through properly to me particularly regarding concealment and the impact on DDs.

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Remove DD's. Boom, the issues with CV's are solved as the other two classes largely have no problem with them.

Otherwise, DD's need to learn to deal with actually being shot at from time to time and not having the veil of immortality that this game's shoddy detection system imbues them with. Learn to WASD, stop assuming you will be unspotted 100% of the match, and stop expecting to do damage comparable to a BB.

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#1 ALREADY happened. Rocket plane agility while attacking was nerfed super hard, and the dispersion penalty for adjusting your aim once the attack has started was made huge. Even right adjustments extremely quickly screw up the dispersion. The prep time for the attack was also made to be extremely long. It made rocket planes feel extremely clunky, and extremely vulnerable to flak puffs while starting their attack run. I used to use rockets to quickly deal chip damage to strong AA ships and / or try to knock some mounts out, because the rocket planes were quick and nimble enough to weave on the approach, do a quick strike, and gtfo. Now, they're probably the clunkiest squad type there is, but still have the low health that USED to compensate for their agility.

#2 would make destroyers that aren't spotted by a third party (and that don't leave their AA on like most of the DDs I encounter still do) functionally immune to carriers. USN DBs might still be able to attack DDs since they need very little distance between them and their target before starting an attack run, but everything would need to attack blind. This might be your objective, but I personally believe giving DDs functional immunity to CVs is kinda dumb.

#3 There are some DDs that could definitely use an AA buff, but not all of them should have stellar AA. A less capable AA armament is a downside purposefully included as a trade-off for other abilities. Some DDs are going to be more vulnerable to planes by design, just like how some ships have weak torpedo defense or thin armour.

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It is not the issue of being shot at it is the issue of a game class built around concealment suddenly having that removed. The destroyers need concealment because of their low HP pool and weak armor, it is their weapon to stay alive. It was a real skill to use your concealment properly, now it is all pointless.

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23 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Remove DD's. Boom, the issues with CV's are solved as the other two classes largely have no problem with them.

Otherwise, DD's need to learn to deal with actually being shot at from time to time and not having the veil of immortality that this game's shoddy detection system imbues them with. Learn to WASD, stop assuming you will be unspotted 100% of the match, and stop expecting to do damage comparable to a BB.

1) The two other classes may not seem as affected as DDs it seems on the surface, but if you notice, every high tier CV match you see EVERYONE playing more passively. This is attributed to not only DDs not being able to get very close in fear of a sudden attack run but all classes' general unwillingness to face any air attack. The problem is that the game is perfectly passive enough where there are no carriers (kiting meta), adding CVs make it either an extremely slow attrition match or one CV gets dominated by the other, forcing everyone else to remain out of the caps for fear of air attack.

2) Try dodging t10 rocket planes with any destroyer. "Learn to WASD" versus a bullet.

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2 hours ago, Destroyer_Zekakaze said:

Rework DD air detection. A simple fix, simply decrease the air detection of DDs further

It has already been done.  DD's have only a  2-3 km air detection range.  After reading your other suggested changes I want to you to just say it because you are thinking it.

"I want to make DD's immune to CV attacks"

Edited by HeadSplit120

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22 minutes ago, KatsuragiKai said:

1) The two other classes may not seem as affected as DDs it seems on the surface, but if you notice, every high tier CV match you see EVERYONE playing more passively.

Speak for your own bloody self.

image.jpeg.85332a46f0f645dbad895eeb11d84

I show this again because it highlights two things: 1) Teams can easily dominate the field with CV's present, 2) DD's can very EASILY be part of the situation (the two DD's on my team shot down more than the CV itself) and 3) failings of some DD players to adapt is just that, a failure of a bad player to adjust their bad play to adapt to the changing environment.

Just because DD players are inherently cowards (baring gunboats) doesn't mean the rest of us are. Most cruisers are unaffected by CV's as those that were typically mid-range harassers/chargers have great AA and thus CV's are more or less a non-issue (USN, RN) or were long range harassers and thus were already way in the back anyway (RU, KM, IJN). I'd argue that the only Cruisers effect negatively, sorta, are French as they were already their own style of gameplay (not quite KM not quite USN) and have awful AA but having them myself I do not find that they are suffering much.

And BB's were already food for CV so the net result is the same with the one caveat that the worst possible outcome, a flood that sticks, is no longer a critical death so if anything CV's are less of a problem now then they were before.

DD's (in some cases) are just 'suffering' because they are the most entitled group of terrible players I've seen in any one game's community: expecting simultaneously to be the strongest damaging class (able to take down tanks in a single blow) the most durable class (lacking citadels, the lowest fire/flood duration, fastest damage saturation (and actually allows for complete damage saturation, the only class that can btw (no where on a BB can a shell eventually do 0 damage for example, but that CAN happen on a DD), randomly deciding they only take 10% damage from BB, thin plating to ensure most shells overpen when fired at with even Cruiser AP, and passively have the best defensive tool in the game: top tier maneuverability), the STEALTHIEST class, and paradoxically constantly asking for 'realism' in hit rates yet ignoring the *facts* that DD's did not counter BB's or Cruisers in reality and were food for both. SOMETHING has to be allowed to kill DD's and since you've demanded CA/CL's be neutered against you by constantly demanding radar nerfs (making already utility lacking USN/RU CA/CL's even more toothless to their teams) it apparently falls to CV's. *YOU* couldn't stand even just a few classes of CA/CL's having radar that made a teams life better (realistically, how is it okay that *1* Shima can force an entire *flank* of a map to alter it's play around making sure Radar cruisers can get into position to counter it? but it is NOT okay for *1* CV to dominate 1 *DD* (since you can only shoot at *1* target at a time now in CV's))

The whole CV thing is [edited], plane and simple. Because even with *2* CV's per team, it can only be *2* targets suffering them at any one time. That means the other *8* (not counting the friendly CV's) are free to move and act. 1 Ship fighting ANOTHER ship is how it's supposed to work but DD players have this inflated attitude that they should be able to dominate entire TEAMS of enemy ships and that NEEDED to be reigned in. Short of adding submarines, or removing DD's, this is the best change that could have been done as DD's were becoming blatantly overpowered.

22 minutes ago, KatsuragiKai said:

2) Try dodging t10 rocket planes with any destroyer. "Learn to WASD" versus a bullet.


Try dodging a wall of Shima torps at 5 km in a BB. Same thing. Why is it okay for a Destroyer to dominate a BB at close range but not for a plane to do the same to a DD at close range? Why is okay for a BB (or frankly even a CA/CL) caught dead to rights by a DD ambush but it's NOT okay for a rocket plane to do the same to a DD? And mind, that BB or CA/CL is *dead* when caught in an ambush: you are not surviving a wall of torps, but *no* rocket plane in the game is capable of 1 shotting an at-Tier destroyer. So whereas those destroyers can and *do* cause devastating, 1 shot (salvo) kills, *no* Rocket planes can.

Say this with me: Destroyers. Are. Not. Battleships.

Edited by _RC1138
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With my concealment Gearing build which also has the legendary concealment module on it I get spotted all the time by CVs, yes with my AA turned off. The low air detection range is still not preventing CVs spotting and then keeping DDs spotted for a considerable amount of time. I am not sure what the answer is, maybe yes have no interaction between DDs and planes. WG need to clarify exactly what their vision of how the game is supposed to work now regarding DDs and CVs spotting/harrasing them for entire games. This is not fun for a DD player and as far as I am concerned I now feel extremely limited in what I can do in a DD. The last game I was in a standard battle and tried to flank, despite having miles of open sea and nothing to indicate I was there the CV swept the area and found me (yes with AA off) then harrassed me most of the game until I had to run and hide next to a Yamato for the rest of the game because I had 1k HP. Now that may have been fun for the CV but it was a total waste of time for me. There is no counterplay, I could do nothing about this.

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I do wonder what is WG’s vision regarding the role of each class in the current meta.

when i play a cruiser or BB I basically can ignore the CV but the DD is definitely most affected in playstyle

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While I agree a CV makes playing a DD harder I don't have a problem playing with them in a match . They can make a DDs life hell but they can only focus and attack one area at a time unlike before so the permanent spotting was fixed. Now 2 CVs in a match is a different story. Even worse when the 2 CVs work together then you are screwed.To me that is the biggest issue with CVs. 2 good CV players that work together can control the game. 

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I'll be honest: at this point, I don't think there's any way to fix the game that doesn't involve removing carriers. And they aren't going to do that.

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5 minutes ago, General_WTSherman said:

I do wonder what is WG’s vision regarding the role of each class in the current meta.

when i play a cruiser or BB I basically can ignore the CV but the DD is definitely most affected in playstyle

I imagine that is very much the point. Just like how a DD largely can ignore the effects of BB's (beyond the BB being the target) and Cruisers can somewhat ignore DD's (them being the target). The biggest issue is WGing is trying to balance the game around an even number of classes and that is quite literally mathematically impossible to do, and at the moment, the Borromean rings are shifting to a double cross on DD's, which sucks for them, but they are often the most vocal dissenters to adding Subs (which would solve that issue) so they made their bed as far as I'm concerned.

2 minutes ago, Battleship_Elisabeth said:

I'll be honest: at this point, I don't think there's any way to fix the game that doesn't involve removing carriers. And they aren't going to do that.


You could remove Destroyers, and that would make far more people happy (BB's and CV's and many Cruiser players) than removing CV's (which at this stage would only make Destroyers happy as CA/CL's are largely unaffected/benefit thanks to the free XP boom from waves of planes shot down, by them and most BB's tollerate them without much guff). So if this is the Island: DD's are voted off 3 to 1 vs. CV's.

Edited by _RC1138

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Just now, Battleship_Elisabeth said:

I'll be honest: at this point, I don't think there's any way to fix the game that doesn't involve removing carriers. And they aren't going to do that.

Limiting matches to only 1 CV would make a huge difference

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5 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Speak for your own bloody self.

image.jpeg.85332a46f0f645dbad895eeb11d84

Just because DD players are inherently cowards (baring gunboats) doesn't mean the rest of us are. Most cruisers are unaffected by CV's as those that were typically mid-range harassers/chargers have great AA and thus CV's are more or less a non-issue (USN, RN) or were long range harassers and thus were already way in the back anyway (RU, KM, IJN). I'd argue that the only Cruisers effect negatively, sorta, are French as they were already their own style of gameplay (not quite KM not quite USN) and have awful AA but having them myself I do not find that they are suffering much.

And BB's were already food for CV so the net result is the same with the one caveat that the worst possible outcome, a flood that sticks, is no longer a critical death so if anything CV's are less of a problem now then they were before.

DD's (in some cases) are just 'suffering' because they are the most entitled group of terrible players I've seen in any one game's community: expecting simultaneously to be the strongest damaging class (able to take down tanks in a single blow) the most durable class (lacking citadels, the lowest fire/flood duration, fastest damage saturation (and actually allows for complete damage saturation, the only class that can btw (no where on a BB can a shell eventually do 0 damage for example, but that CAN happen on a DD), randomly deciding they only take 10% damage from BB, thin plating to ensure most shells overpen when fired at with even Cruiser AP, and passively have the best defensive tool in the game: top tier maneuverability), the STEALTHIEST class, and paradoxically constantly asking for 'realism' in hit rates yet ignoring the *facts* that DD's did not counter BB's or Cruisers in reality and were food for both. SOMETHING has to be allowed to kill DD's and since you've demanded CA/CL's be neutered against you by constantly demanding radar nerfs (making already utility lacking USN/RU CA/CL's even more toothless to their teams) it apparently falls to CV's. *YOU* couldn't stand even just a few classes of CA/CL's having radar that made a teams life better (realistically, how is it okay that *1* Shima can force an entire *flank* of a map to alter it's play around making sure Radar cruisers can get into position to counter it? but it is NOT okay for *1* CV to dominate 1 *DD* (since you can only shoot at *1* target at a time now in CV's))

The whole CV thing is [edited], plane and simple. Because even with *2* CV's per team, it can only be *2* targets suffering them at any one time. That means the other *8* (not counting the friendly CV's) are free to move and act. 1 Ship fighting ANOTHER ship is how it's supposed to work but DD players have this inflated attitude that they should be able to dominate entire TEAMS of enemy ships and that NEEDED to be reigned in. Short of adding submarines, or removing DD's, this is the best change that could have been done as DD's were becoming blatantly overpowered.


Try dodging a wall of Shima torps at 5 km in a BB. Same thing. Why is it okay for a Destroyer to dominate a BB at close range but not for a plane to do the same to a DD at close range? Why is okay for a BB (or frankly even a CA/CL) caught dead to rights by a DD ambush but it's NOT okay for a rocket plane to do the same to a DD? And mind, that BB or CA/CL is *dead* when caught in an ambush: you are not surviving a wall of torps, but *no* rocket plane in the game is capable of 1 shotting an at-Tier destroyer. So whereas those destroyers can and *do* cause devastating, 1 shot (salvo) kills, *no* Rocket planes can.

Say this with me: Destroyers. Are. Not. Battleships.

Do you even play the same game? Posting a SC of you playing the one ships thats immune to CV is hardly proving anything.

Literally everything kills DD's. They have the lowest HP pool and most have no heal. Torp reload is long and torps are easy to dodge.

DD's also have plenty of counters already including radar and hydro. Like seriously dude, get a fuking clue!

No one complained about CV's before because no one played them.

If you let a shima get within that close without knowing he is there then i suggest you git-gud.

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31 minutes ago, KatsuragiKai said:

1) The two other classes may not seem as affected as DDs it seems on the surface, but if you notice, every high tier CV match you see EVERYONE playing more passively. This is attributed to not only DDs not being able to get very close in fear of a sudden attack run but all classes' general unwillingness to face any air attack. The problem is that the game is perfectly passive enough where there are no carriers (kiting meta), adding CVs make it either an extremely slow attrition match or one CV gets dominated by the other, forcing everyone else to remain out of the caps for fear of air attack

That... and since the number of CV encourage the 3 AA Cruiser lines, all of them having radar. More often than not you end up in game with 1 CV and 4 radar ships. CV tend to take the show, but do not forget that the number of radar ships seems even higher than before.

2 hours ago, Destroyer_Zekakaze said:

1.) Rework the way plane attacks operate. This is a very extreme option, and will be, if even possible at all, very very difficult to pull off. This effects mostly rocket planes and dive bombers (especially USN). The current iteration of CVs, it is very easy for CVs at adjust their attack runs on the fly, which makes dodging and any form of counterplay extremely difficult. With the old RTS system of carries, bombers had a line called the Line of No Return, which means that the second that line is crossed, the bombers are committed to the drop and cannot be readjusted. I propose some sort of similar system, keeping the elements of manually controlling a large, single squadron but still retaining some element of "commitment" from the old RTS system. Torpedo bombers are fine as is attack-wise, but I propose a system of dive and rocket attacks to have an element of commitment to a direction, being unable, or very slot to, turn in either direction once the attack run initiates, increasing the value of good plane placement to maximize hits across the bow and stern of a ship. Again, this is a very, very extreme option and probably will never happen.

It's already the case. I played a lot of CV game lately and rocket plane aren't easy to use at all, and a DD playing well (turning AA on and off at the right time) can make you waste more your time than Taffy 3 did.

 

2 hours ago, Destroyer_Zekakaze said:

2.) Rework DD air detection. A simple fix, simply decrease the air detection of DDs further, thus increasing their potential to both hide from, and defend While the first buff did significantly help, unless the DD is spotted by other means, I believe that this change, by decreasing the air detection range, will help throw off accurate attacks against a DD without making attacking them impossible unless the DD is spotted by other means. If this makes any sense, think of it this way: 
A DD is spotted by a CV at a distance that the attack run will pretty much have to be launched almost the second the squadron spots the destroyer for the most accurate attack, rewarding good plane placement to catch the DD nose or stern to attack for maximum hits as well as good reflexes. If the attack is not launched almost immediately, the resulting attack will be far less accurate due to there being a much narrower gap between the attack location and DD position. Again, this is probably an extreme option. 

Again, already the case. You do not find DD soon enough to launch your rocket plane, only the US dive bomber can do the trick. In fact, it is probably the only thing that really need a tweek: US HE Dive bomber are the plane wrecking DD with no real counterplay.

 

2 hours ago, Destroyer_Zekakaze said:

3.) My last, very simple solution is to simply beef up destroyer AA capabilities to improve their defense against carriers, especially those that will drop fighters over a destroyer to keep them spotted, and getting them focus fired heavily. While proposal 2 would help to alleviate this, the simplest solution I can think of that would help improve the amount of freedom and defense a DD has in a CV game would simply just beef up their AA defense not quite to cruiser or even Groz/Gearing levels, but enough to actually being able to reliably shoot down planes more consistently, although the weakness with this, again, is the attrition of battle. This is a very simple suggestion that ultimately will probably fail to fully fix the problem, but will at least help

This would need a lot of tweek and, since some DD have already awesome AA, could ruin CV (my AA Monaghan already eat plane for breakfast). A simple idea: make Manual Control AA a lower cost skill (level 2 maybe?). Manual AA give a huge boost to the AA of any DD (making it possible to rain 180% AA power at all time on the enemy attack squadron) but it cost far too much right now for any non-AA specialist DD. At level 2, it would become a ''must take'' for DD and would help them quite lot to fend of CV.

 

11 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

yet ignoring the *facts* that DD's did not counter BB's or Cruisers in reality and were food for both

Well.... 3 destroyer, 6 destroyer escort and 6 escort carrier did stopped and made retreated 4 battleship, 6CA, 2CL, 11 DD....

Edited by Y_Nagato

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I am a relative noob, so I anticipate many of you will stop reading immediately -- unless you simply tell me to "get gud."  

I came in and focused on the USN ships...I am up to Tier VI.

In my (admittedly very limited) experience, I face the biggest issues when I am bottom Tier in my Farragut.  My most recent Farragut game, I was bottom Tier in a game with 2 CVs on each team and they were all Tier VIII.  There was only 1 DD on each team.  I didn't last all that long, not even half-way through the match, and the enemy DD died well before I did.  I did basically nothing during that game but run for my life -- I inflicted no damage, I spotted no ships (friendly CVs had already spotted everything I could see), and I certainly didn't get anywhere near an enemy capture point.  I had my AA off until I was spotted by A/C and under attack from them.  When the air attack ended, I turned my AA off again.  I wasn't continuously spotted, but all my energy and attention were expended trying to survive.  My only contribution to my team was in the opportunity costs "imposed" on the opposing CVs -- to the degree they were focused on finding and attacking me, they weren't doing other things to the rest of my team.

The damage done to me by the enemy CVs wasn't necessarily my primary problem...I wasn't actually killed by the enemy CVs directly, I was killed by the massed fire of the enemy BBs and CAs who could (and did) target me because the CVs kept me spotted.  The Cruisers and BBs all have Guns that outrange DD guns (which is appropriate), and in a Farragut, my torpedoes don't have the range to be any sort of counter.  Once the DD on each team was sunk, then the fight moved to the other combatants.  (In chat, one of the other team literally stated "O.K., both DDs are gone...let's get it on.")

I wonder if WG would consider a form of protected MM for DDs, in which DDs would only face CVs that were +1/-1?  This approach would seem to have less potential for negative (and unintended) second-order effects.

My $0.02...

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, General_WTSherman said:

Limiting matches to only 1 CV would make a huge difference

It really wouldn't. If you actually think about this for more than 10 seconds, you'd realize that even with *three* CV's in a match, those three CV's can only target *3* things (you can no longer split resources as was possible in the RTS version). That means, if you ignore the ENEMY team's 3 CV's, 7 of the 10 remaining players are by definition NOT being attacked by the CV. That means the vast majority of the team (70%) doesn't care. You reduce that by 66% (1 CV per team) and it only changes the net sentiment by 13% (10/12 players unaffected by a single CV is 83%). So you are wrong mathematically on the net effect of limiting CV's. The 'issue' will remain because 1) DD's are faster than the remainder of fleets (and accelerate faster) thus are out front thus are the first target most of the time 2) DD's have the lowest power AA and thus are EASIER targets and 3) rocket planes are the 'easiest' to use do to lack of requirement of leading (compared to torps/RN Bombers) or preparation of aim (DB's).

Frankly the 'easiest' way to reduce at least the DAMAGING effect from CV's vs. DD's would be to add a bit of lead time requirements for rockets (increasing the targeting range but thus the travel time, of the rockets).

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3 minutes ago, Jonnywithanh said:

With my concealment Gearing build which also has the legendary concealment module on it I get spotted all the time by CVs, yes with my AA turned off. The low air detection range is still not preventing CVs spotting and then keeping DDs spotted for a considerable amount of time. I am not sure what the answer is, maybe yes have no interaction between DDs and planes. WG need to clarify exactly what their vision of how the game is supposed to work now regarding DDs and CVs spotting/harrasing them for entire games. This is not fun for a DD player and as far as I am concerned I now feel extremely limited in what I can do in a DD. The last game I was in a standard battle and tried to flank, despite having miles of open sea and nothing to indicate I was there the CV swept the area and found me (yes with AA off) then harrassed me most of the game until I had to run and hide next to a Yamato for the rest of the game because I had 1k HP. Now that may have been fun for the CV but it was a total waste of time for me. There is no counterplay, I could do nothing about this.

So let me get this straight- you were miles away from anything, way out in open sea. The CV took the time to meticulously sweep the area, and figured out where you were. They then spent "most of the game" harassing you, and trying to sink you. Despite all that time and effort spent, spending most the game locating and trying to attack you, the CV was unable to ever seal the deal. You're using this as evidence that DDs are too WEAK vs. CVs? That a class can spend most of the game hunting for and attacking you and still be unable to kill you? Ok. So if a BB is able to tank a cruiser shooting at them for the entire game AND STILL NOT DIE, that's evidence that the BB is too weak. Check.

 

P.S. The CV -does- have indication of where you are if you're way off on your own- the detection indicator. If they see that exclamation mark pop up but there are no known enemy ships within their detection radius, then they know there's an unspotted DD sneaking around on the edge of their spotting radius. After that, they can fly away from that area, and watch for when the exclamation mark disappears. Using this, it's fairly easy to work out roughly where the DD is. To avoid falling prey to this, use island cover (so LoS can potentially screw up the spotting), and stay in the general area of allies (so the CV thinks their planes are just spotted by one of the known bigger ships in the area). Being alone in the open is asking for trouble.

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