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AdmiralThunder

Bot Richelieu's = the epitomy of the cheating bots

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Man, I have run into a lot of red bot Richelieu's lately and it always strikes me how badly they are allowed to "cheat" or should I say get better performance from the ships than we can. I am talking about the main guns specifically.

Now when I play Richelieu it is basically a case of spray and pray, regardless of the range, with the main guns. They are pretty darn inaccurate. They also don't exactly do great damage which is strange as they are exactly the same as Alsace which I do fine with. 

But oh man god help you if you are on the receiving end of a bot Richelieu. At any range and any angle they have been hammering me lately. I can only wish for 1/2 the accuracy and damage potential those red bot Richelieu's get. It's quite annoying and comical at the same time.

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Of course; 100% bot shell normalization, and nothing less than full pens is good enough for bots; because, ya’ know, they have to be able to compete against the ‘smarter(?)’ humans. 😑

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8 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Man, I have run into a lot of red bot Richelieu's lately and it always strikes me how badly they are allowed to "cheat" or should I say get better performance from the ships than we can. I am talking about the main guns specifically.

Now when I play Richelieu it is basically a case of spray and pray, regardless of the range, with the main guns. They are pretty darn inaccurate. They also don't exactly do great damage which is strange as they are exactly the same as Alsace which I do fine with. 

But oh man god help you if you are on the receiving end of a bot Richelieu. At any range and any angle they have been hammering me lately. I can only wish for 1/2 the accuracy and damage potential those red bot Richelieu's get. It's quite annoying and comical at the same time.

It's gotten a lot worse over the last few patches. Narai and Newport is a great for the BB's having seemingly no RNG all. I was deleted 3 games in a row in Narai by the low tier BB that comes after the initial spawn. Range and dodging don't seem to help much.

If I could get a low tier bb to shoot like that, I'd be a god! :fish_viking:

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Creating a 'cheat' requires manipulation of the code for that particular mechanic. Things like shell dispersion are calculated server-side, as opposed to within the game client. This means what you're describing simply isn't possible. More a case of 'confirmation bias' I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

*edit: To be fair though, it's possible to create a bot who's aim is consistently better than a human, but that's entirely different than dispersion.

*Edit #2: Because I keep getting roasted on this, I did NOT realize OP was talking about co-op bots. I thought he was talking about the bots you sometimes encounter in randoms. I don't play co-op so I don't have much to contribute and I withdraw my comments.

Edited by Jiggiwatt

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I thought the Richy's guns were pretty accurate when I played it...

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10 minutes ago, Jiggiwatt said:

Creating a 'cheat' requires manipulation of the code for that particular mechanic. Things like shell dispersion are calculated server-side, as opposed to within the game client. This means what you're describing simply isn't possible. More a case of 'confirmation bias' I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

*edit: To be fair though, it's possible to create a bot who's aim is consistently better than a human, but that's entirely different than dispersion.

The bots exist server-side.  Or what, did you think that WG has remote computers "playing" the bots, one client install per bot? 

And no, it's not "confirmation bias" (which has become as overused and misused as an ad-hom attack and cheap off-hand dismissal almost as much as Dunning-Kruger at this point...)

The bots get these gimmicks, running server-side, to make up for the bone-headed dirt-simple AI that is all WG can manage.  And you can tell immediately when they're turned off in some of the PTS iterations... especially the "homing round" cheat.  When it's turned off, bot main gun shells no longer "just happen" to disperse right to where your ship is, and their miss rate goes up considerably -- that's just one example. 

 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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14 minutes ago, Jiggiwatt said:

Creating a 'cheat' requires manipulation of the code for that particular mechanic. Things like shell dispersion are calculated server-side, as opposed to within the game client. This means what you're describing simply isn't possible. More a case of 'confirmation bias' I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

*edit: To be fair though, it's possible to create a bot who's aim is consistently better than a human, but that's entirely different than dispersion.

"Cheat" is a term Co-op players use for the increased abilities bots get in certain areas that is done intentionally to let them compete. I don't mean the bots actually cheat I mean the advantages WG gives them look like/feel like cheating even though working as intended.

Accuracy is one of the areas, among many, the bots absolutely, no doubt about it, get advantages over human players. It is coded in no question that bots get better dispersion and seem to also have improved pen angles that can defy game mechanics we are held to. 

I brought this up because Richelieu is not an overly accurate ship but the ones I have faced recently have better accuracy than my Cruisers (and at any range) and they don't seem to have any trouble penning me at any angle (even when game mechanics say their shells can't). It's down right ridiculous.

I want a refund on my spray and pray Richelieu who's gunnery officer is Stevie Wonder, that feels like it is shooting pillows at times, and I want one of those Laser accurate, hammer of the gods damage, gunned Richelieu's the bots get. :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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53 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

The bots exist server-side.  Or what, did you think that WG has remote computers "playing" the bots, one client install per bot? 

And no, it's not "confirmation bias" (which has become as overused and misused as an ad-hom attack and cheap off-hand dismissal almost as much as Dunning-Kruger at this point...)

The bots get these gimmicks, running server-side, to make up for the bone-headed dirt-simple AI that is all WG can manage.  And you can tell immediately when they're turned off in some of the PTS iterations... especially the "homing round" cheat.  When it's turned off, bot main gun shells no longer "just happen" to disperse right to where your ship is, and their miss rate goes up considerably -- that's just one example. 

 

49 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

"Cheat" is a term Co-op players use for the increased abilities bots get in certain areas that is done intentionally to let them compete. I don't mean the bots actually cheat I mean the advantages WG gives them look like/feel like cheating even though working as intended.

 

I was under the impression that we were talking about client side bots, not the bots that WG puts into co-op games and scenarios due to the use of the word "cheat". My apologies for the misconception. I don't have enough experience playing with bots to contribute much to the conversation. 

Also, I simply said I suspected a case of confirmation bias. It's extremely common around here for someone to have something rare occur a few times in short succession and immediately come on the forums and bemoan various game mechanics, claiming WG has stacked the odds against them. 

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AI have massively boosted fire chance and rounds that home in on human players. It's only really a problem when you get to Ops play when you're massively outnumbered and each encounter lasts 20 minutes instead of 10.

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Bots get better sigma values than players and much tighter dispersal patterns with their guns, bots have a greatly increased fire chance and the ability to automatically spot torps aimed at them the moment they launch. Bots have 100% visibility of the map and always know where players are. I suspect bots have some sort of "camo" that further debuffs the accuracy of shells fired at them. 

Of course we can't get WG to comment on ANY of this, but all of us PVE regulars are seeing the same things, so I'd call that confirmation enough that these things exist.

Of course players still win 9 games out of 10 despite these "enhancements" to the bots. It is just frustrating when a player gets deleted by a bot making some impossible shot from max range. 

I've played a bit of randoms lately and I honestly don't fear humans nearly as much as I do bots, because humans MISS all the time. Angle a little, apply a little WASD and you are golden against most humans, whereas the bots are able to hit you and hurt you consistently. 

This is why I'm not looking forward to having bot CVs back in the game. Imagine being harassed by infinite planes performing PERFECT attacks time after time after time. 

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I see both great and poor bots..like in randoms?  Some dodge torps, some dodge your artillery, but not all....I have no idea how many levels there are but I think there are at least good bots and potatoes..

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2 minutes ago, The_Old_Dog said:

I see both great and poor bots..like in randoms?  Some dodge torps, some dodge your artillery, but not all....I have no idea how many levels there are but I think there are at least good bots and potatoes..

Bots on the green team always seem to be potatoes. 

We known there are different levels of AI, we've seen that before. Exactly how much of it is in use we aren't being told. 

I had a bot DD actually run from me the other day... there's something new. 

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If the bots cheat any harder co-op win rates may drop from 98 to as low as 97%!

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6 minutes ago, mofton said:

If the bots cheat any harder co-op win rates may drop from 98 to as low as 97%!

There is an understanding that bots having increased tactical performance is used to shore up their lack of strategic planning.

That being said it is still very frustrating when a player is obliterated by a shot from a bot that no player could make. It is frustrating to spend a match continually on fire because as soon as you put two out they set another one. It is frustrating to have your perfectly aimed shells either fall short of a bot target or scatter like birdshot in the wind. It is frustrating to take extremely accurate fire over an island that you can't see over. It is frustrating to be focused by the ENTIRE bot team because you are the least armored thing they can see.

I've had bot BBs 15+km away, with a player BB right in their face, turn and shoot me b/c I'm in a cruiser.

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The only advantage I have noticed in bots play is they have far faster reaction times compared to the humans.  They spot and the shoot and they are very accurate.  I do not believe they have better visibility, better sigma or other invisible buffs.  They are just damn good shots.  The bots algorithms easily and quickly calculate target distance and shell travel time get the exact target lead required for a hit.  They can deliver a citadel hit at max range.  If you are in a DD or CL you can easily detonate.

1730227767_WorldofWarships4_23_20193_28_17PM.thumb.png.7a9106490a1bbd880917a095498962d3.png

I have a 61% main battery accuracy and 35% torpedo accuracy.  Hitting bots is not hard.

What ever "enhancements" they are perceived to have, they obviously need them...

 

Edited by MWSVette1
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3 hours ago, pikohan said:

I thought the Richy's guns were pretty accurate when I played it...

Yeah the guns were not bad on accuracy, it was shell pen RNG that trolled me a lot more than in my IJN, KM, RN, or USN BBs.

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3 hours ago, pikohan said:

I thought the Richy's guns were pretty accurate when I played it...

 

32 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yeah the guns were not bad on accuracy, it was shell pen RNG that trolled me a lot more than in my IJN, KM, RN, or USN BBs.

It's not the worst accuracy I have seen but it sure isn't very good either. BUT the bot Richelieu's shooting at me put Yamato accuracy to shame lately.

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On 4/23/2019 at 10:17 PM, Kebobstuzov said:

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Never said I had a problem with them (ie; defeating them) I was commenting on how accurate the bot version is vs what the ship does for me. Guess you aren't a Unicum when it comes to reading.:Smile_glasses:

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1 minute ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Never said I had a problem with them (ie; defeating them) I was commenting on how accurate the bot version is vs what the ship does for me. Guess you aren't a Unicum when it comes to reading.:Smile_glasses:

I disagree. I think I read what you said just fine. Maybe bots need better accuracy to make up for the limitations of AI behavior. Could Also be confirmation bias where it feels like they are more accurate but might not be.

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3 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

I disagree. I think I read what you said just fine. Maybe bots need better accuracy to make up for the limitations of AI behavior. Could Also be confirmation bias where it feels like they are more accurate but might not be.

How can you disagree? Where did I say I had trouble with them? Quote it. Unless you can make a direct quote where I said I had trouble with them you are 100% wrong! I said they get better performance from the ship (ie; accuracy and damage) than I do and nothing more. 

Yes I know, bots get improved aspects so they can compete. I said so in the thread. That is exactly what I am talking about. My Richelieu is a spray and pray while the red bot one is laser accurate AND doesn't seem to have the same issues with angles human players do. Working as intended I am sure.

It's not confirmation bias unless almost every Co-op main in the game also suffers from it. Too many people seeing and posting the same stuff for it not to be true.

You don't play Co-op (missions maybe), you don't like those who do CLEARLY, so why post here and insult people and start fights? Go be insulting on the rest of the site.

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2 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

How can you disagree? Where did I say I had trouble with them? Quote it. Unless you can make a direct quote where I said I had trouble with them you are 100% wrong! I said they get better performance from the ship (ie; accuracy and damage) than I do and nothing more. 

Yes I know, bots get improved aspects so they can compete. I said so in the thread. That is exactly what I am talking about. My Richelieu is a spray and pray while the red bot one is laser accurate AND doesn't seem to have the same issues with angles human players do. Working as intended I am sure.

It's not confirmation bias unless almost every Co-op main in the game also suffers from it. Too many people seeing and posting the same stuff for it not to be true.

You don't play Co-op (missions maybe), you don't like those who do CLEARLY, so why post here and insult people and start fights? Go be insulting on the rest of the site.

It took me a LONG time to believe what my eyes were telling me -- that bots get these "cheats".  It had to be optical "illusion" that their shells were "tracking" during drift as I turned... it just had to be something I missed when bot torps showed up where I was instead of where I was going when they were fired, no matter how much I had turned and changed speed... etc.

 

 

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I think I encountered the epitome of cheating the other day- when a bot Kidd fired a 15 torpedo spread at me.

  Kidd has ONE quintuple tube launcher, period.   No reload booster, nothing.  It's a gunboat.   Yet this one launched 15 torps at me...    They were all coming in in an even mass- originating from a single point, and it was all one wave.   So no multiple ships, and no super duper fast reloads.

  Kidd was the ONLY ship in the area.    It was a flat out cheat.

  Other torpedo cheats I've seen:

- torpedoes turning to follow you.   (like it was pre-decided that your ship would die to a torpedo spread)

- RN single fire torps all hitting the same spot- and all doing full damage.  (ie ignoring damage saturation.)   I think this salvo also did a bit of the above also, as they came in in a strait line, one after the other- and I could not dodge them, no matter how I turned.   I anticipated their launch, and started dodging early- and was thus sailing directly away from them.   It SHOULD have been easy to dodge that line of torps, but no matter which way I went, they came strait at me, and EVERY one of them hit.

- "ghost" torpedoes launched by long dead ships, that appear way after the fact- and even though you are in a completely different place, and have changed direction and/or speed AFTER sinking the bot- they are on a perfect course to hit you.   These salvos are especially difficult to dodge.

 

  And, like the OP, I find it particularly annoying to be on the recieving end of ultra accurate fire from a ship that has a hard time hitting the ocean in player hands.    Having Hellen Keller as my chief gunnery officer played a big role in me selling off my Richelieu...

edit:  NICE!  looks like I have a fanclub!

Edited by Fletcher7_1944

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It almost seems like the torpedoes are "Heisenberg" torpedoes -- they don't travel, they just appear where you are X seconds after the bot launches them, no matter how much you've turned or changed speed between then and the moment they appear. 

 

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The only defense against them is Sonar at the Bot being sunk to prevent them from being "spawned" or on your ship to force them to "spawn in" much further away.

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You know bots are getting some... "advantages" (I won't call them cheats, lol) when those German BB's, which are notorious for lack of long range accuracy, are suddenly shooting and hitting marks against you consistently from 20 km out... and even setting you on fire or poking your citadel... when sailed by the red bots.

Now, the green bots on your team? Those are totally different story, lel.

Edited by Blorgh2017

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