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Ramsalot

384 planes downed in one match

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it was just like an old-time turkey shoot down home

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A perfect storm of AA and CV's willing to keep pushing in. However that is pretty close to what each team could field for planes. With the respawn rate you don't have to count the planes on each CV, it works out in the end.

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I am just happy to see T6 BBs taking down 15 planes between them, going against CVs two tiers higher.  Right on :cap_rambo:

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4 CVs able to fight hard enough for them to kill 1/2 of the 20 surface ships in the game and get enough xp to the get top 2 spots on both teams while still losing 384 planes.  Seems perfectly balanced.  Not sure what everyone is upset about.  

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15 minutes ago, T_O_dubl_D said:

4 CVs able to fight hard enough for them to kill 1/2 of the 20 surface ships in the game and get enough xp to the get top 2 spots on both teams while still losing 384 planes.  Seems perfectly balanced.  Not sure what everyone is upset about.  

It's not their performance that people are mostly annoyed at.

It is the fact that surface ships feel they aren't able to do enough to defend themselves from the Aircraft and for CVs they have to do a lot of work and don't get that awesome big hit moment for doing all the work to get it right and pull off the perfect strike Plus they feel like they are only playing against RNG not a players skill.

Trouble is to fix both the AA system has to become more interactive other than maneuvering your ship and players would whine about that even if it was just a case of facing your camera at the direction you want your AA to focus on and hitting a button to set a marker........ So yeah lol.

Then again a lot are mostly complaining about the fact they have to change their mind sets and tactics as well as pay more attention. Something no fix can help so that's their problem not the games.

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image.thumb.png.eef2cc00517dda38957643e54b2a8902.png

just had this game....other cvs were still putting up full squadrons to the last moment

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wow

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Just being real about something here. The enterprise carried 90 aircraft.   These two carriers each apparently have an air wing of 192 planes...... Anyone see a problem here?  If you can lose 192 planes  from a single carrier in 20 mins the implementation is WRONG.

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3 minutes ago, megahugenoob said:

Just being real about something here. The enterprise carried 90 aircraft.   These two carriers each apparently have an air wing of 192 planes...... Anyone see a problem here?  If you can lose 192 planes  from a single carrier in 20 mins the implementation is WRONG.

I agree. Too many planes and not enough survivability in the individual planes. They pop too fast. Their attacks aren't that coordinated (or you can try dropping torps under dfaa). Even after doing the best possible job, damage that is crap and dot that has been nerfed.

Carriers aren't where they need to be yet, but the people who are crying so loud aren't the ones flying planes.

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I did pretty well in this turkey shoot, but that Fletcher on the other team... damn.

shot-19.04.23_00.21.49-0465.jpg

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wonder how many of those were fighter kills and how many were actual bombers.   The enterprise has a massive fighter squadron.(i think its the largest in the game)   That alone will vastly inflate how many plane kills someone/ a team gets.  add 3 more CVs fighters in and it adds up.   Not to mention any non CV planes launched. 

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1 hour ago, X__QC__X said:

It's not their performance that people are mostly annoyed at.

It is the fact that surface ships feel they aren't able to do enough to defend themselves from the Aircraft and for CVs they have to do a lot of work and don't get that awesome big hit moment for doing all the work to get it right and pull off the perfect strike Plus they feel like they are only playing against RNG not a players skill.

Trouble is to fix both the AA system has to become more interactive other than maneuvering your ship and players would whine about that even if it was just a case of facing your camera at the direction you want your AA to focus on and hitting a button to set a marker........ So yeah lol.

Then again a lot are mostly complaining about the fact they have to change their mind sets and tactics as well as pay more attention. Something no fix can help so that's their problem not the games.

Losing planes doesn't preclude the carriers from doing well- it just means they're losing planes. A ship can lose all its health and still do well in a game. Likewise a carrier can lose all its planes, but still do well because it lost all those planes in good trades.

Most of my best games in carriers end with me scraping the bottom of the barrel for planes. They're a resource to be used, after all.

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2 hours ago, X__QC__X said:

It's not their performance that people are mostly annoyed at.

It is the fact that surface ships feel they aren't able to do enough to defend themselves from the Aircraft and for CVs they have to do a lot of work and don't get that awesome big hit moment for doing all the work to get it right and pull off the perfect strike Plus they feel like they are only playing against RNG not a players skill.

Trouble is to fix both the AA system has to become more interactive other than maneuvering your ship and players would whine about that even if it was just a case of facing your camera at the direction you want your AA to focus on and hitting a button to set a marker........ So yeah lol.

Then again a lot are mostly complaining about the fact they have to change their mind sets and tactics as well as pay more attention. Something no fix can help so that's their problem not the games.

Even in the Pre-CV Rework days, when we had a far stronger AA system, someone rants about Carriers.  I try to help out, 2 general things:

1.  Don't sail alone.

2.  If you truly hate CVs that much and your ship is a good AA candidate, consider an AA Build.

 

For point 1, people are offended that they have to play differently in a Carrier environment.  I keep telling them that the mutual AA is a deterrent, or at the very least will make the CV pay dearly in aircraft if he pushes with the attack.  Not to mention an AA Cruiser is going to defend a larger group of friendly ships than Captain Joe Idiot sailing off in his Tirpitz all by himself for that Enterprise to AP Bomb Delete his a**.  It never gets through.  Nobody wants to sail properly in a CV match so they kept on getting deleted and coming right to message boards to whine about it.

 

For point 2, there's numerous Cruisers, Battleships that were great AA candidates.  I remember using AA Build Gneisenau in those days and I'd defend surrounding teammates.  I told my friendly CV to use me as an AA trap if he wanted.  I told friendly DDs to run my BB's way if they think the planes are coming for them.  I mean, who the hell specs a German BB for AA, right?  :Smile_Default:  Anyways, good AA candidates out there but people refused to do AA Builds despite their regular complaining about air attacks.  I tell them to try it out, but they want to do their "Survival Build" instead.

Me:  "If you are being attacked by Carriers as often as you complain about, you realize your BB Survival Build doesn't help you 'Survive' against Carriers, right?"  :Smile_veryhappy:

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3 hours ago, Hanger_18 said:

CVs dont have unlimited planes...

They don't -- each CV has 9x 6 fighter consumables (PLUS 4x 6 fighters guarding the CV itself).  These can't fire at ships, but are shot down and count as aircraft kills.  That makes 216 (312 including CV's "personal" fighters) aircraft spread among 4 ships.  Why do you think the CVs get so many aircraft kills?  FIGHTERS. CVs usually drop fighters on each others fighter making easy plane kills and likely accounts for a bulk of the aircraft dropped.  In the OP's case, 390-216 = 174, spread among 4 CVs is 43.5 attack aircraft each.  They start with about that much and do bring more up from the hangar during the match -- around 80 seconds per hangar retrieval.  They very much so do in-fact have limited planes. 

Edited by NoSoMo
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2 hours ago, megahugenoob said:

Just being real about something here. The enterprise carried 90 aircraft.   These two carriers each apparently have an air wing of 192 planes...... Anyone see a problem here?  If you can lose 192 planes  from a single carrier in 20 mins the implementation is WRONG.

That may be true only if we add fighter squadrons. Because if we count without them the amount won't be higher than nearly 119 (with perk and modernisation).

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The only way this situation ever happens is when CVs fight each other in close proximity, like an extreme version of Coral Sea. Squads will sustain horrific losses for chip damage (since no DoT effect will stick), and both sides will be calling in as many fighters as they can muster on top of AA that vaporizes half of them on arrival. Especially Enterprise, who calls in more fighters than any other CV in the game, even more than Midway.

Edited by Flashtirade

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1 hour ago, Flashtirade said:

The only way this situation ever happens is when CVs fight each other in close proximity, like an extreme version of Coral Sea. Squads will sustain horrific losses for chip damage (since no DoT effect will stick), and both sides will be calling in as many fighters as they can muster on top of AA that vaporizes half of them on arrival. Especially Enterprise, who calls in more fighters than any other CV in the game, even more than Midway.

I always thought that was the Kaga's claim to fame Kaga 26+38+38 = 102,  Enterprise 18+14+14 = 46  At least starting out anyways.

Kaga needs them due to squishy.

Add in fighters for any ship that carries them which probably did due to CV phobia and yeah, a long match will net more planes.

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5 hours ago, Hanger_18 said:

image.thumb.png.eef2cc00517dda38957643e54b2a8902.png

just had this game....other cvs were still putting up full squadrons to the last moment

Likely they weren't send full squadrons out at the beginning, but dropping some ordinance except for the Enterprise, she has 2nd most reserves at T8.

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Enterprise and her huge fighter CAP ....I haven't played it but it seems like it is literally a plane factory......I'm guessing that the CVs in this match were under fire & spotted most of it.  and they all used all their CAP consumables as well.    I'd say off-hand that these were all decent CV players..and two of these CVs were going after each other?       wow..  

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that is the true issue with cv's.

let me guess, 2 v 2 cv's at the end of the game, and you guys just fed each other planes.....to the point you took all of the top two spots on each team.

CV's shooting down planes from non dropped fighters should receive no extra XP.

Edited by Sweetsie

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4 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Even in the Pre-CV Rework days, when we had a far stronger AA system, someone rants about Carriers.  I try to help out, 2 general things:

1.  Don't sail alone.

2.  If you truly hate CVs that much and your ship is a good AA candidate, consider an AA Build.

 

For point 1, people are offended that they have to play differently in a Carrier environment.  I keep telling them that the mutual AA is a deterrent, or at the very least will make the CV pay dearly in aircraft if he pushes with the attack.  Not to mention an AA Cruiser is going to defend a larger group of friendly ships than Captain Joe Idiot sailing off in his Tirpitz all by himself for that Enterprise to AP Bomb Delete his a**.  It never gets through.  Nobody wants to sail properly in a CV match so they kept on getting deleted and coming right to message boards to whine about it.

 

For point 2, there's numerous Cruisers, Battleships that were great AA candidates.  I remember using AA Build Gneisenau in those days and I'd defend surrounding teammates.  I told my friendly CV to use me as an AA trap if he wanted.  I told friendly DDs to run my BB's way if they think the planes are coming for them.  I mean, who the hell specs a German BB for AA, right?  :Smile_Default:  Anyways, good AA candidates out there but people refused to do AA Builds despite their regular complaining about air attacks.  I tell them to try it out, but they want to do their "Survival Build" instead.

Me:  "If you are being attacked by Carriers as often as you complain about, you realize your BB Survival Build doesn't help you 'Survive' against Carriers, right?"  :Smile_veryhappy:

Haze, you've played with me. You know I'm not a type to go off without reason.

 I'm not a CV fan. Its not because I'm just against CVs being in a surface ship game.. whatever that's supposed to mean. It's purely implementation. 

 Last night I was dived up helping InsaneMustang and Zfilez level up low tier ships. One match I was playing Ishizuchi in a double CV match. Both CVs focused me. I wasnt sailing off alone. I had 3 personal escorts, two DDs anda CL. But it's a T3/4 match. Outside Yubari nobody has AA. Cant buff a turd. That's fine. I have the HP and heal. They got me but it cost them 2 DDs, a BB, and 2 CLs due everyone ignoring my escorts to pur me down. That's decent balance. We have garbage AA, they have low alpha.

 Saturday. Full AA build Groz on Mountain range. One T8 CV, the red one is an Enterprise. I red Jutland went full aggressive into the B cap and spotted me for the Enterprise. I had intentionally stay a bit back from the cap with my AA off. Ok fine. It's still a T8 CV and I'm an AA build Groz. Two full squad runs of rocket fighters later I'm under 5k up and out of heals. That's 6 attack runs. Not one plane shot down. Zero. Zip. Full AA Groz vs a T8 CV gets totally wrecked. Not balanced. I wouldn't even be annoyed had he made a great torp or DB drop. That's skill on his part or total screw up on mine. But no, 6 passes with rockets.

 Which bring me to what's really the worst part of CV implementation. If I get in a fight with a DD and get wrecked, I at least had a chance to do damage, aka gain XP. I get in a fight with a cruiser I get a chance to do damage, aka gain xp. I get in a fight with a BB, again... damage/xp. I get jumped by a CV I get.... uh... wrecked? Even if I'm able to shoot down planes I'm totally reliant on RNG fir how much i get. You and I running Torpitz have exactly the same odds of gaining XP doing plane damage as the newest face rolling tater who buys a Torpitz with 10 games experience. Yeah we'll likely do more just from having high tier capts to use, but it's still nothing to do with actual skill.

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1 hour ago, RA6E_ said:

Enterprise and her huge fighter CAP ....I haven't played it but it seems like it is literally a plane factory......I'm guessing that the CVs in this match were under fire & spotted most of it.  and they all used all their CAP consumables as well.    I'd say off-hand that these were all decent CV players..and two of these CVs were going after each other?       wow..  

Risking the wrath of community, I am here to say that I honestly think CVs are fine, and I don’t mind playing vs CVs, and they DO have limited planes.  What happened in this particular game, CVs were doing their thing in the back, and ships were doing their thing sorting things out.  When last two surface combatants (one on each side) nearly killed each other, CVs on both sides finished them off (quite naturally, the remaining two ships were priority targets for two CVs on both sides).  I actually was the last non CV ship to get sunk on my team.  Enemy team was leading by few points, so both of our CVs headed to enemy cap to grab few extra points, while enemy CVs moved closer to their cap to defend it.  Then insane quantities of fighters started to come in (both from the attacking squadrons and CV auto consumable), and they were going down faster than Pattaya girls, and that’s how these numbers of downed planes really started to pour in (it was hilarious to watch).  In the end GZ secondary guns had their part to say about the meaning of life, and it was over in our favor.  An excellent game all things considered.

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People cry when they don't kill planes.

 

 

People cry when they kill to many planes.

 

I'm so confused.

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