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soko99

Fix the "Near smoke" penalty

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As title says, it's [edited] that any ship can see you firing your gun while they're INSIDE the smoke just because you're within a certain range of the smoke. So fix it.  Smoke being a 1 way window with no other ships spotting is just messed up.

 

Edit: So here's the video of what I am talking about.. Notice that after the DD smoked up, I was still "detected" for a good 5 seconds even though he was already concealed by his smoke.  Also notice, how it was NOT assured acquisition as that has a different icon.  Now, it would have made ZERO difference to the outcome of that engagement. But this is the best example of the scenario I was talking about, and it happens a lot in cruisers.

 

 

Edited by soko99
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This is a part of the larger mechanic of minimum spotting distance.  If you and I are on different sides of a solid island with no line of sight we can still "spot" each other if we are close enough. 

No worse than magic radar/hydro.  Working as intended comrade 

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4 minutes ago, soko99 said:

As title says, it's [edited] that any ship can see you firing your gun while they're INSIDE the smoke just because you're within a certain range of the smoke. So fix it.  Smoke being a 1 way window with no other ships spotting is just messed up.

A ship inside a smoke screen cannot see out unless you are in assured detection range and if you are that close then you too will be able to see them inside the screen. A ship in smoke needs someone else spotting you to be able to see you.

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1 minute ago, Vaffu said:

A ship inside a smoke screen cannot see out unless you are in assured detection range and if you are that close then you too will be able to see them inside the screen. A ship in smoke needs someone else spotting you to be able to see you.

Unless you are within the auto detect spotting distance, which is btw affected by vigilance. 

There is a distance where you are auto detected regardless of line of sight.

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4 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

A ship inside a smoke screen cannot see out unless you are in assured detection range and if you are that close then you too will be able to see them inside the screen. A ship in smoke needs someone else spotting you to be able to see you.

At a guess the OP smoked up and someone, probably in a CL, that was not spotted by any of his teammates sailed up to the smoke, got within assured detection/auto detect and What the Bloody Hell Pawned him.

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9 minutes ago, Wombatmetal said:

Unless you are within the auto detect spotting distance, which is btw affected by vigilance. 

There is a distance where you are auto detected regardless of line of sight.

Vigilance is Torps only.  Not ships.

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13 minutes ago, Spyde said:

Vigilance is Torps only.  Not ships.

You are correct, I confused it with Target Acquisition which extends the auto detect to 3 km

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32 minutes ago, Wombatmetal said:

Unless you are within the auto detect spotting distance, which is btw affected by vigilance

False. Vigilance only affects torpedo spotting. You're thinking of the spotting mod that takes to place of Concealment and Steering Mod 3.

 

Whoops. I see I'm late. Apologies.

Edited by WuYixiang
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I am not sure if the smoke firing detection applies in both directions, but when you are inside of smoke you can be spotted by another ship if they are either within 2 (or 3km), use radar/hydro, or you shoot and they are within your ship-specific smoke firing concealment. 

When you are inside of smoke you will not spot anything unless you use radar/hydro, they are within 2 (or 3km), or possibly if THEY fire their guns and are within THEIR ship-specific smoke firing distance. 

Generally, in a DD you will basically never need to worry about smoke firing, in a CL maybe 6-8km, a CA 7-10km AFAIK and BBs are lit from space. 

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22 minutes ago, MaxL_1023 said:

I am not sure if the smoke firing detection applies in both directions, but when you are inside of smoke you can be spotted by another ship if they are either within 2 (or 3km), use radar/hydro, or you shoot and they are within your ship-specific smoke firing concealment. 

When you are inside of smoke you will not spot anything unless you use radar/hydro, they are within 2 (or 3km), or possibly if THEY fire their guns and are within THEIR ship-specific smoke firing distance. 

Generally, in a DD you will basically never need to worry about smoke firing, in a CL maybe 6-8km, a CA 7-10km AFAIK and BBs are lit from space. 

It does, and applies through smoke (2 BB's on opposite sides of a smoke screen far enough away from each other will be invisible to each other while firing their guns. Admittedly, anything in said smoke cloud would be able see both BB's every time they fired.

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1 hour ago, Wombatmetal said:

Unless you are within the auto detect spotting distance, which is btw affected by vigilance. 

There is a distance where you are auto detected regardless of line of sight.

Err. No.

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1 hour ago, Vaffu said:

A ship inside a smoke screen cannot see out unless you are in assured detection range and if you are that close then you too will be able to see them inside the screen. A ship in smoke needs someone else spotting you to be able to see you.

Wrong..  The ships NEAR smoke also have the same smoke fire penalty as the ships INSIDE the smoke.. Now of course since DDs have a very short smoke fire range compared to anything else, If you fire your BB/Cruiser guns as you close the smoke, the DD will be able to see you from inside his smoke. No other ship needs to see you.  Now this was solved when the LOS spotting glitch was in the game since as soon as the DD smoked up and you fired your guns before it lost sight, you immediately went back to your regular detection range and the smoke would also keep you concealed. However, since they FIXED that problem and now your gun bloom lasts the full 20 seconds, it now creates a situation where the DD can see you because of your smoke firing gun bloom, but of course he's inside the smoke so you can't see it.

Edited by soko99

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

At a guess the OP smoked up and someone, probably in a CL, that was not spotted by any of his teammates sailed up to the smoke, got within assured detection/auto detect and What the Bloody Hell Pawned him.

Guess reading is hard.   I was actually the BB chasing the DD into his smoke, but because I was suffering the smoke firing penalty, I was still shown as "detected" and easily seen by the DD because I shot at him as he started his smoke and gun bloom lasts 20s.  (Bismarck hydro was not yet in range for it)

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Captains,

This is a particular mechanic at play.

All ships have an assured detection distance of 2km, regardless of all other situations such as smoke or islands. That means if you are within your smoke cloud and a ship is within 2km of you, you will see each other. 

Now, while you are in your smoke, if you shoot this will again extend out your detection range which in some cases will make you detectable to someone approaching your smoke cloud or within your smoke.

Smoke is meant to be a defensive consumable but not a guaranteed safety section. If you were completely undetectable in smoke, it would make it extremely OP. 

There is no bug.  

Fem, 

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1 minute ago, Femennenly said:

Captains,

This is a particular mechanic at play.

All ships have an assured detection distance of 2km, regardless of all other situations such as smoke or islands. That means if you are within your smoke cloud and a ship is within 2km of you, you will see each other. 

Now, while you are in your smoke, if you shoot this will again extend out your detection range which in some cases will make you detectable to someone approaching your smoke cloud or within your smoke.

Smoke is meant to be a defensive consumable but not a guaranteed safety section. If you were completely undetectable in smoke, it would make it extremely OP. 

There is no bug.  

Fem, 

Once again.. I am not referring to ASSURED acquisition ranges.  I am talking strictly about the smoke firing penalty applying to the ship NEAR the smoke, making the ship INSIDE the smoke be able to spot the ship firing outside the smoke.

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8 minutes ago, soko99 said:

Guess reading is hard.   I was actually the BB chasing the DD into his smoke, but because I was suffering the smoke firing penalty, I was still shown as "detected" and easily seen by the DD because I shot at him as he started his smoke and gun bloom lasts 20s.  (Bismarck hydro was not yet in range for it)

I missed that you were outside the smoke but you should have known better than to close the smoke while the gun bloom was active while hydro was still on cooldown.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

I missed that you were outside the smoke but you should have known better than to close the smoke while the gun bloom was active while hydro was still on cooldown.

It is not really a question of should have known better.. the mechanic should not exist.. I mean being spotted by the ship INSIDE the smoke???

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43 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

Err. No.

You get within 2km, 3km with target acquisition, your spotted. Never fail, regardless of LOS. It's magic

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2 hours ago, soko99 said:

As title says, it's [edited] that any ship can see you firing your gun while they're INSIDE the smoke just because you're within a certain range of the smoke. So fix it.  Smoke being a 1 way window with no other ships spotting is just messed up.

Yes yes it is. Its completly silly that a dd can see everything out side if smoke because someone eles see it.

It should be removed.

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13 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

Yes yes it is. Its completly silly that a dd can see everything out side if smoke because someone eles see it.

It should be removed.

I am hoping you are just mistaken in your reading comprehension. As I clearly STATED that there was NOBODY else who can see me, hence my complaint about the mechanic.    otherwise.. go troll somewhere else..

( Smoke being a 1 way window with no other ships spotting is just messed up. )

Edited by soko99

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38 minutes ago, soko99 said:

Guess reading is hard.   I was actually the BB chasing the DD into his smoke, but because I was suffering the smoke firing penalty, I was still shown as "detected" and easily seen by the DD because I shot at him as he started his smoke and gun bloom lasts 20s.  (Bismarck hydro was not yet in range for it)

Yes, amazed that so many people missed your point. I thought your original post was pretty clear. 

Still, what is wrong with a ship in smoke being able to see a ship outside of it fire?

If you need to retcon it to the real world, they’ll notice a battleships huge gun bloom that will still light up the world through the smoke. 

More importantly, for game balance purposes it reduces the incentive for passive camping, which is generally a good thing. Yes, I know you were pushing, but I’m not sure how to make you unseen in your scenario but not reward campers. 

Open to suggestions. 

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2 hours ago, soko99 said:

As title says, it's [edited] that any ship can see you firing your gun while they're INSIDE the smoke just because you're within a certain range of the smoke. So fix it.  Smoke being a 1 way window with no other ships spotting is just messed up.

I agree.  That scenario is really borked.  

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1 hour ago, Femennenly said:

Captains,

This is a particular mechanic at play.

All ships have an assured detection distance of 2km, regardless of all other situations such as smoke or islands. That means if you are within your smoke cloud and a ship is within 2km of you, you will see each other. 

Now, while you are in your smoke, if you shoot this will again extend out your detection range which in some cases will make you detectable to someone approaching your smoke cloud or within your smoke.

Smoke is meant to be a defensive consumable but not a guaranteed safety section. If you were completely undetectable in smoke, it would make it extremely OP. 

There is no bug.  

Fem, 

How come then this doesn't work with carrier planes? Or ought I say, it seems to me I don't very often see dd sitting in smoke when I'm flying ~100 feet off the deck and over them at oh... couple hundred miles an hour. Heck... I should be able to smell their dirty laundry and see their socks hanging on the cables drying at that range. 

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58 minutes ago, Wombatmetal said:

You get within 2km, 3km with target acquisition, your spotted. Never fail, regardless of LOS. It's magic

realistically speaking, if you're within spitting distance of another ship... you'd probably hear them even if you couldn't directly see them. Or see a silhouette in the smoke, or the eddies from movement in the smoke. Assured acquisition is one of the more sensible/realistic mechanics...

And especially if you start firing off huge gun shells.

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1 minute ago, Carrier_Ikoma said:

realistically speaking, if you're within spitting distance of another ship... you'd probably hear them even if you couldn't directly see them. Or see a silhouette in the smoke, or the eddies from movement in the smoke. Assured acquisition is one of the more sensible/realistic mechanics...

And especially if you start firing off huge gun shells.

But through islands? I'm perfectly fine with the mechanics, but seeing a ship through an island has no basis in physical reality. I'm okay with it, but it is magical

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