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Crucis

DDs and CVs (among other things)

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With all the back and forth going on about DDs vs CVs, there's one thing that I've seen completely overlooked when it comes to the value of DD concealment, particularly as it relates to CVs, but also to all ships.   And that's the freebie Situational Awareness skill.

Don't take this suggestion too seriously, but who knows, maybe it is something that should be considered.

 

What if the free Situational Awareness skill was removed from the game?  All of the sudden, CV planes wouldn't realize when there was a DD in their vicinity, with the single exception of DDs being on caps (and being unspotted).  The only reason that CV planes go on intense searches for solo DDs is because their SitAwareness skill goes off.  Or it goes off for a team mate.  But if DDs were not semi-spotted by SitAw, their concealment would be a lot more valuable.   This doesn't mean that they can't be found, if there's some reason to think that they're in the area.  For example, they fired torps on one of your team mates or maybe they got radared for a second or 2 but were on the edge of radar range and move out of radar range.  In these situations, obviously, CV planes would have a reason to start looking for a DD.   But if you had a DD off on a flank all by himself and not spotted or giving anyone any reason to think that there's a DD in the area, it would take blind luck to fly right over a concealed DD.  (And the more ignorant players would cry "cheater".)

 

Also, if you're a  DD player in a non-CV game, but with plenty of radar, the removal of SitAw would mean that one of the events that often triggers a radar cruiser to light up his radar would be gone, i.e. knowing that he's been spotted.  Of course, it doesn't remove the enemy from realizing that an enemy is on a cap (unless this kind of notification was removed as well, which probably isn't a good idea), and that's often a trigger for lighting up radar.

 

So, here's a question.   If the free Situational Awareness skill was removed from the game, would this make game play more campy or less campy?

 

Moving on, but on the same overall topic.  Maybe the best thing to do might be to remove the free Situational Awareness skill, and place a greater emphasis on the Radio Location skill.  And perhaps consider moving the RL skill to a lower skill level.  Maybe a 2 point skill, mostly because there aren't a huge number of really important/good level 2 skills, but level 3 is packed with good ones.

 

Anyways, comment away.  This was just something that popped into my head an hour or so ago.  And thought that it might be worth a little brainstorming on the forum.

 

@Gneisenau013

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Do you mean get rid of it entirely, or make it a skill with a point cost?

Didn't it used to have a point cost, and everyone took it, so WG made it free?

I think @deresistance suggested removing it entirely in a thread.

Cruiser life would get difficult.

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I would absolutely hate it. The situational awareness skill is what allows me, personally, to get away with aggressive plays. As something like a Minotaur or a Zao or a Des Moines, the four or five seconds between the SA alert and the first battleship salvo is often literally the difference between life or death. 

As a DD, the SA skill is the only reason why it’s even possible to contest caps against DDs with a lower concealment. Without that information the enemy has all the cards. I would definitely not be contesting caps in anything other than a Yugumo without it.

 

Literally, without SA I would altogether stop playing cruisers and DDs, and focus on playing BB and CVs. There’s so many ways to get absolutely f***ed in those two classes if you’re not 100% careful 99% of the time. With BBs and CVs (*cough* easy classes *cough* ) you barely need to care about concealment.

Edited by Gavroche_
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7 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Didn't it used to have a point cost, and everyone took it, so WG made it free?

Yes. It was a must have so WG made it "free". They then brought in the Priority Target skill, which is ALMOST a must have.

 

Might actually be an interesting poll. How many players have non-CV commanders without PT? I have a couple of on stealthy DDs where I figure I will treat being detected as being targeted. I often miss having that skill though...

Edited by Sabot_100

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6 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Do you mean get rid of it entirely, or make it a skill with a point cost?

Didn't it used to have a point cost, and everyone took it, so WG made it free?

I think @deresistance suggested removing it entirely in a thread.

Cruiser life would get difficult.

What I meant was two fold.

1.  Get rid of it entirely, BUT ...

2.  Move the Radio Location skill from level 4 to level 2, which can be just about as useful in its own way as SA.

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4 minutes ago, Gavroche_ said:

I would absolutely hate it. The situational awareness skill is what allows me, personally, to get away with aggressive plays. As something like a Minotaur or a Zao or a Des Moines, the four or five seconds between the SA alert and the first battleship salvo can literally be the difference between life or death. 

As a DD, the SA skill is the only reason why it’s even possible to contest caps against DDs with a lower concealment. Without that information the enemy has all the cards. I would definitely not be contesting caps in anything other than a Yugumo without it.

 

Literally, without SA I would altogether stop playing cruisers and DDs, and focus on playing BB and CVs. There’s so many ways to get absolutely f***ed in the other two classes if you’re not 100% careful 99% of the time. With BBs and CVs you barely need to care about concealment.

There are other ways you can deal with the lack of SA, Gavroche.

If you have PT, you'll still know if you're being targeted by main guns.  You could take the Incoming Fire Alert to let you know if any longish range fire is incoming.  You could take RL (whether level 4 or 2, if moved there), to give you additional data.

In short, you wouldn't be as completely blind as you think, IMO.

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8 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Yes. It was a must have so WG to make it "free". They then brought in the Priority Target skill, which is ALMOST a must have.

The thing with the PT skill is that because it requires you to be targeted by main guns, you have to be in gun range of whomever is targeting you.  Enemies can't target you if you're outside of their gun range.  Neither can they  target you if you're not even detected.

Of course, if a DD is approaching you with its torpedoes selected, it won't register on PT.  However, if it is spotting you and a team mate of that enemy DD does target you with guns, you'll know it.  Additionally, if PT goes off and you're taking incoming gun fire from a ship you cannot see, you KNOW with absolute certainty that you're being detected by something that's concealed and has better concealment than your ship.

Frankly, there's a lot more information out there to be had, if one only processes it correctly.

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3 minutes ago, Crucis said:

2.  Move the Radio Location skill from level 4 to level 2, which can be just about as useful in its own way as SA.

Many more would take RPF as a 2-pt skill, but I don't think it is nearly as useful as getting a "Detected"  warning in most situations. Knowing there is a ship you can't see in a certain direction is good to know. Knowing that you have been spotted, especially if you can't see what is spotting you, is critical and probably completely changes your planned actions (assuming you were trying/hoping not to be seen).

If you got rid of SA, would you also have to get rid of PT? It gives a lot of the same info.

 

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

What I meant was two fold.

1.  Get rid of it entirely, BUT ...

2.  Move the Radio Location skill from level 4 to level 2, which can be just about as useful in its own way as SA.

DDs at low tiers would hunt cruisers for their bbs (and their own torps if they could stealth torp).  You'd know something was in a direction, but not how close.  Lone BBs would also suffer.

I would think more BBs would load HE on the chance that a DD would yolo them.  Then again, a DD on a course with a cruiser might not get clear before being spotted and have a bad time.  Or cruisers would trail their DDs directly so whatever ship was in front of the DD would face two ships instead of one.

As a whole, I think the game would get a lot more dangerous.  And teamplay and divisions would become more beneficial.

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1 minute ago, Sabot_100 said:

Many more would take RPF as a 2-pt skill, but I don't think it is nearly as useful as getting a "Detected"  warning in most situations. Knowing there is a ship you can't see in a certain direction is good to know. Knowing that you have been spotted, especially if you can't see what is spotting you, is critical and probably completely changes your planned actions (assuming you were trying/hoping not to be seen).

If you got rid of SA, would you also have to get rid of PT? It gives a lot of the same info.

 

Not necessarily.  OTOH, one could argue that PT is unfairly biased in favor of ships that have torpedoes, which don't register with PT, over ships without torpedoes, which can't avoid targeting the enemy with their guns.

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Sure -- so long as we make a realistic spotting distance for a 100m long ship.  12km sounds fair for an average DD.   Of course we could make radar accurate and include the fact that it was on pretty much every US and UK ships -- with its proper range.  It could run non-stop too.

Edited by NoSoMo

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Nothing wrong with the skill, just remove it from Planes.

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1 minute ago, Spyde said:

Nothing wrong with the skill, just remove it from Planes.

Took long enough for one of you yahoos to figure this one out.  :Smile_veryhappy:

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Interesting.  I dont run priority target in my DDs.  If I am detected I just assume the number would say 12 and adjust accordingly.  I dont know how i would like life without knowing.  You definitely bring up some good points about throwing people off the trail.  You dont know you're detected until the bullets start flying would sure make things lively

Edited by T_O_dubl_D
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I assume WG made SA standard because everyone was taking it anyway and it made the game better for the average (and below) players. Without it, players would be getting blapped constantly while creeping along assuming that nobody can see them. That gets frustrating pretty fast when learning to play and would really give advantages to players with CE skills and mods .

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2 minutes ago, T_O_dubl_D said:

Interesting.  I dont run priority target in my DDs.  If I am detected I just assume the number would say 12 and adjust accordingly.  I dont know how i would like life without knowing.  You definitely bring up some good points about throwing people off the trail.  You dont know you're detected until the bullets start flying would sure make things lively

PT is useful for any DD that wants to use its guns, but particularly gunboat DDs.  And cruisers too.  What you do Is use your guns while your PT# is 0 or 1, but when that number goes up, it's time to stop firing and go dark or find hard cover.  The PT number is a way to know when it's fairly safe to shoot and when it's not.

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28 minutes ago, Crucis said:

There are other ways you can deal with the lack of SA, Gavroche.

If you have PT, you'll still know if you're being targeted by main guns.  You could take the Incoming Fire Alert to let you know if any longish range fire is incoming.  You could take RL (whether level 4 or 2, if moved there), to give you additional data.

In short, you wouldn't be as completely blind as you think, IMO.

There are other information skill, but right now not very people take them precisely because of how good SA is. 

Priority target is probably the best substitute, and I run it on all but my carrier builds, but the information you get from it is still 1-2 seconds behind SA. And when each second represents thousands, or tens of thousands of hitpoints, I still think it’s an insufficient substitute. IFA is even worse in that sense because the reaction time given by IFA is generally less than the rudder shift time on high tier cruisers, which is woefully insufficient to dodge battleship AP.

RPF is an option, but it generally only points to  DDs, and you generally really only need to be worried about the cruisers and BBs which have the alpha to significantly damage you before you can start kiting away.

 

Ironically, I think the best way to deal with it is probably to just division with a carrier and just let them spot all the enemy ships for you. That would be a pretty simple, reliable, and low cost way of getting the necessary  information.

Edited by Gavroche_

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9 minutes ago, T_O_dubl_D said:

Interesting.  I dont run priority target in my DDs.  If I am detected I just assume the number would say 12 and adjust accordingly.  I dont know how i would like life without knowing.  You definitely bring up some good points about throwing people off the trail.  You dont know you're detected until the bullets start flying would sure make things lively

You would be surprised at how often you get away with sitting completely still, in open water, without smoke, farming BBs, because nobody can be bothered to aim at you.

It happens at least once every other game with my Kidd.

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1 minute ago, Gavroche_ said:

You would be surprised at how often you get away with sitting completely still, in open water, without smoke, farming BBs, because nobody can be bothered to aim at you.

It happens at least once every other game with my Kidd.

Lol

As jingles says "what's that banging noise"

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I have read a lot of complaints about DDs getting spotted by planes and they don’t like being spotted. Let’s be a little realistic, that is what happens when planes fly over ships, they get spotted. In fact, in the real battle of Midway, the US dive bombers were lost and spotted a Japanese DD moving at full speed. The US bombers went in the direction of the Japanese DD and found the Japanese Fleet. So this is what happens, the DD can go back for air cover of CAs and BBs or continue and try to lose the spotting planes. 

Personally I think the DDs have too much advantage in the game, they should have to wait at least 5 minutes before torpedo reloads. After all in real life, torps took 8 hours to reload and no DD could reload torps while in a battle. 

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2 hours ago, Crucis said:

What if the free Situational Awareness skill was removed from the game? 

This is a wonderful idea, which BB driver would never, ever agree with because then they would have to pay attention instead of living in binocular mode. It would make capital ships much more vulnerable to torps, which the BaBBies would NEVER let fly.

But it's an absolutely GREAT idea, and one which should be implemented ASAP.

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23 minutes ago, Dan_1607 said:

I have read a lot of complaints about DDs getting spotted by planes and they don’t like being spotted. Let’s be a little realistic, that is what happens when planes fly over ships, they get spotted. In fact, in the real battle of Midway, the US dive bombers were lost and spotted a Japanese DD moving at full speed. The US bombers went in the direction of the Japanese DD and found the Japanese Fleet. So this is what happens, the DD can go back for air cover of CAs and BBs or continue and try to lose the spotting planes. 

Personally I think the DDs have too much advantage in the game, they should have to wait at least 5 minutes before torpedo reloads. After all in real life, torps took 8 hours to reload and no DD could reload torps while in a battle. 

IJN DDs could reload in 15 to twenty minutes using their special reloading gear while in action and did so more than once. They were the only ones who could do so as they had reload torpedoes on many destroyers (Fubuki class and later). I stand to be corrected here, but as far as I know, no other navy did.

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What if DD detection by air significantly decreased when the DD stop moving, this would make sense and be helpful ?

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2 minutes ago, Visidious said:

What if DD detection by air significantly decreased when the DD stop moving, this would make sense and be helpful ?

Or we could give DD's something to help them hide. Maybe smoke generators or something like that?

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