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Skuggsja

Destroy Rework!

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Here we go again, another crazy idea. Hear me out though. Let me first say I obviously don't work for WG and have no actual influence on them, so this post is just kind speculative/imaginative fun.  I hardly believe it would ever amount to anything more than just another random "what if" discussion on the forum. Next, let me say I completely understand that this game is not a simulator or other sort of really realistic experience, however, there is a basis in reality for some of the gameplay and mechanics. Last, I hate concealment. Yes, its a fundamental part of the game but only because it was chosen to be, hence why not every game that ever existed is about concealment. I'd prefer better armor models and penetrations values ect, ect, ect over concealment. That all said, let's begin. Oh wait, one more thing, I don't want Destroyers removed, I just think they could be a cool new role and leave a gap that would require a new class to fill. 

Walloftext.exe . . . .

Destroyers have a huge impact on the game, both good and bad. Losing destroyers quickly can leave you without that spotting advantage or speed to cap. Being the only destroyer in the game can mean you pull off a hardcore win by maneuvering and capping while simply avoiding the enemy, hard carrying your team. However, both of these are huge issues. Why? Destroyers have the lowest armor and health pools in the game and rely solely on the idea of becoming, or remaining, invisible to stay alive. Yet, by staying completely unseen, destroyers can become insanely powerful with some of the highest alpha damage weapons in game, torpedoes. Obviously, some destroyers don't fit in those molds exactly but make up for it in other ways, like the Russian gunboats. There is the problem though, how do you make a ship with so much potential power and responsibility but with so little armor and health pool, fun to play? How do you make it survivable? Concealment.

So what's the problem with concealment? Well if you make it so that ships can fire without being seen, they become insanely difficult to counter. For those of you that played years ago, you remember being shot at from directly infront of your ship but still not seeing your opponent. We called it invisi-firing among other things, and it really sucked to be on the receiving end of an invisible kiting ship. We also remember old school IJN torpedoes that were hard as hell to spot and dodge coming from completely invisible ships. However, both those aspects were nerfed or removed. They also implemented radar and hydro on a mass scale. Carriers have also come into play once again, in larger numbers that provide a lot of spotting as well. Now, its all too possible to spot a destroyer, deny a cap, spot torpedoes, and kill the smallest ships in-game with ease.

Not sure what I'm talking about, here is a list of nerfs and buffs that have been made to keep destroyers playable:
Battleship AP - Capped in the amount of damage it can do to destroyers
Radar - Introduced standard ranges to nations/tiers
Radar- Implemented a 6-second delay to allow destroyers a head start in breaking contact
Catapult Aircraft - Removed the ability to spot torpedoes as it was being used a "hilly bill hydro"
Aircraft Carriers - Increased aimed time of rocket planes, decreased maneuverability of planes
Aircraft Carriers and Catapult Aircraft - Decreased air detection radius of all destroyers
IJN Torpedos - Increased spotting range on all torpedoes
Destroyers - (Primarily destroyers but some other ships were affected as well) removed the ability to fire outside of concealment range)
Smoke - Increased the detectability of all ships within smoke because it was too strong when smoking allies

I'm sure the list could go on, in fact, I had more in mind but I can't seem to remember right now. Let's also look at the real key functions, that I believe we as players can agree on:

1. Spot, destroyers have the best spotting potential or at least are tied with Carriers in this regard. I argue they provide different types of spotting. Regardless, we want destroyers to spot for us.
2. Cap, capture those points. Despite their vulnerability to all other classes in some regard, we demand they take the most forward position.
3. Destroy other destroyers, sometimes they're the only option it feels like when the enemy destroyer just becomes insanely difficult to hit.

Again I'm sure there is more, but those are the primary things I've heard or myself expected out of destroyers. The bottom line, we seem to want them to be the most forward ships. Expose yourself the most in the least forgiving ships. I'm sure its thrilling fo for the best destroyer players but we've all seen those that die 1.5 minutes into a match or those that have literally done nothing all game. Now with carriers, its even worse for destroyers. I've noticed an increase in destroyers somewhat more successfully dodging my Aircrafts attacks but, overall it is mostly a fish in the barrel game. So why are we asking these ships to be so into the action, so willing to sacrifice themselves? Why do we treat destroyers like mini-capital ships, when in fact they were the mass-produced ships in the wars?

HIstorical, again I know its not a simulation, destroyers were picket ships. Fighting of Aircraft, hunting submarines, and launching torpedoes to kill or at least scatter enemy ship formations. In fact, most destroyers in games primary armament act as the anti-aircraft armament on other ships. They also have towed sonar arrays and depth charges modeled on the ships, as well as some cruisers. Given that Submarines aren't in the game, and for whatever reason most Destroyer AA isnt that good, these picket ships and escorts have found a bizarre role limited by their historical designs in a game that doesn't have room for those roles unless it changes.

So, how can we change that? Well, a lot of the required changes are just a rearrangement of things, or simply awarding a different style of play. Let us give destroyers DFAA across the board or at least a majority of ships. Let them knock plenty of planes down and to reward this, we give them bonus experience for doing so while friendly ships are within their AA aura. We know WG can code things into the aura, as they recently implemented an overstacking penalty for AA auras. So lets let destroyers spot incoming planes for their big brothers and then shoot them down too. We could even change it up, by bringing back the old AA system to a degree. Perhaps ships that have crazy AA potential, American and IJN gunboats, have an aiming time reduction to planes within the aura while ships like Groz simply have a direct damage increase to their AA with the regular DFAA. To me, it makes sense, can you imagine a Harugumo shooting at you as a pilot with all those rounds? It'd be scary as hell.

Next, we deal with hydro. Some destroyers already have it but why not all? Change ranges and durations to make them somewhat unique to nations. Bother German and British destroyers already have hydro, so we see how it can work.  Again, we can award experience for assisting friendlies by spotting torpedoes and awarding ships within a certain aura, say 5 to 6 KM. If you're in front of a battleship and spot incoming torpedoes for him, boom experience for team play instead of just damage farming. Now, this also comes in if you were to add submarines, again filling a historical role for destroyers. We'll get into that later.

Also, smoke could maybe use some sort of change, to encourage destroyers to lay smoke for friendly ships. After all, WG lists that as one of the purposes for destroyers. However its mostly useless but again could be rewarded with an aura based experience system. 
 

"WAIT WAIT WAIT - I LOVE THE CONCEALMENT BASED GAMEPLAY! AND WHO IS GOING TO CAP AND SPOT!?"

Hey, I hear you and that's why we'd still have unique ship lines like the Russians, French, and Japanese. Japanese Gun Boats become more like escorts but Japanese torpedo boats could remain unchanged. Both French and Russians have destroyers meant to kill enemy destroyers as well, and can still actively gunboat. We also have the potential for really amazing destroyer wolf packs, a Harugumo actually moving with a pair of Shimakazes to provide AA and fire support with DFAA would be pretty cool.

Finally, we add in submarines, the most effective long term spotting and concealed capture point taking ships in the game. A surfaced submarine could be nearly impossible to spot in a cap, or really difficult to dislodge. Just like American submarines did, they can provide the eyes of the fleet (Look it up if you don't know but American subs did a lot of intelligence gathering on top of sinking some big ships like IJN Carriers). This also gives Destroyers a new target to kill and defend the fleet against, again reinforcing team play.

I also believe there could be room for a couple of new consumables, but they are far from necessary - 1. A consumable that resupplies the charge of another ship and 2. A consumable that would simulate putting out a fire on other ships, using water cannons to help reduce fire times. These are far from needed or anything but could reflect some historical roles destroyers played while adding more value to teamwork. We may also be able to limit torpedo reload slightly, so that torpedo spam isn't so prominent in some ships but that isn't a requirement per se.

In summary, destroyers may be able to be reworked based on some historical uses that make them more fun for some in-game, while limiting the amount of nerfs and buffs to keep them playable. This could also begin to encourage more teamwork, a successful part of other online games like DOTA and League, and create more of a need for submarines. We would also be relieving the class that suffers the most for the requirement of concealment and end the need to buff and nerf any challenge to concealment so ensure their playability.

Edited by Skuggsja
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Holy moly...

I read the summary, seems like you want DDs to be support ships.  No thanks.  +1 for your efforts though

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4 minutes ago, LookUpAndSpit said:

Aint nobody gonna read the wall of text...

But since the title has destroy rework have a +1

I already read it.  What you mean is that YOU are too lazy to read it.

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To deal with a problem your create a thousand others...


Please, just kill some factions specialty like German Hydros and USN DFAA, let's make all destroyers equal on everything, this way there won't be any problems with DD anymore...

 

NOT.

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Just now, LookUpAndSpit said:

Kek.

You got me there

Well … Ok.

Moving on... :Smile_veryhappy:

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I know a lot of what you said has merit I think easy solution would just be to remove team spotting for CVs

Edited by silverdahc

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14 minutes ago, LookUpAndSpit said:

Aint nobody gonna read the wall of text...

But since the title has destroy rework have a +1

I sort of tried to warn everyone. I cant help it, I'm a wall of text guy but thanks for the plus 1 !

11 minutes ago, T_O_dubl_D said:

Holy moly...

I read the summary, seems like you want DDs to be support ships.  No thanks.  +1 for your efforts though

I do, sort of, or at least to have options other than all that early sacrificing I see in most games. I'd really like to begin to foster teamwork more and more in-game, instead of a "team" of 12 individuals only trying to achieve their own goals. Its not for everyone though, thanks for your input.

8 minutes ago, ALROCHA said:

To deal with a problem your create a thousand others...


Please, just kill some factions specialty like German Hydros and USN DFAA, let's make all destroyers equal on everything, this way there won't be any problems with DD anymore...

 

NOT.

Just curious as to what the problems are you're thinking of. Not to argue, just curious. 

I also would think this could improve some of the unique features of destroyers between different nations. To each their own though.

 

1 minute ago, silverdahc said:

I know a lot of what you said has merit I think easy solution would just be to remove team spotting for CVs

Yeah, I actually agree with that as a guy that loves the CV rework. Wouldnt mind the ships merely showing sort of like they do for radar now, just an outline for everyone but the actual aircraft. However, my thought is that anything that challenges a destroyers ability to stay hidden just creates more and more of a problem.

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I went back and read it all... you hit the nail on the head that the whole mess of the current meta is due to the concealment mechanic. Magic radar, disappearing DDs, ships the size of skyscrapers going in and out of sight.  I would disagree with you in the fix though.  The obvious counter to me is a MAJOR nerf to weapon accuracy at medium and long range and bring them in line with more realistic real world counterparts.   We should be able to see each other from almost the entirety of the map...doesnt mean we should be able to hit each other hundreds of times per battle from 15+ km away with precision accuracy that occurs now.  

Just my 2 cents

Edited by T_O_dubl_D
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3 minutes ago, T_O_dubl_D said:

I went back and read it all... you hit the nail on the head that the whole mess of the current meta is due to the concealment mechanic. Magic radar, disappearing DDs, ships the size of skyscrapers going in and out of sight.  I would disagree with you in the fix though.  The obvious counter to me is a MAJOR nerf to weapon accuracy at medium and long range and bring them in line with more realistic real world counterparts.   We should be able to see each other from almost the entirety of the map...doesnt mean we should be able to hit each other hundreds of times per battle from 15+ km away with precision accuracy that occurs now.  

Just my 2 cents

I honestly agree, it is just I don't think they'll back completely out of concealment ever. I think better armor vs penetration schemes would be great or maybe if they sort of implemented that proximity sigma/dispersion buff they're implementing for the Russian battleships, for all ships.

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Planes can no longer spot torpedoes.

This one statement can nullify any credibility you may have on the rest of your post. 

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4 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

I honestly agree, it is just I don't think they'll back completely out of concealment ever. I think better armor vs penetration schemes would be great or maybe if they sort of implemented that proximity sigma/dispersion buff they're implementing for the Russian battleships, for all ships.

Yep I'm with you I dont think they would do it either but the Russian BB "curve" is a great example.  Maybe if it works out there is hope!

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6 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Planes can no longer spot torpedoes.

This one statement can nullify any credibility you may have on the rest of your post. 

Catapult Aircraft - Removed the ability to spot torpedoes as it was being used a "hilly bill hydro" . . . That's what I was referring to in this line. It was sort of a nerf to all ships that didn't relly on hydro. Did I make an error somewhere else?

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I can applaud your trying to think outside the box for solutions.  From a practical standpoint reworking another class doesn't seem like a efficient route, especially given that DDs are a stable class and its CVs that are unstable.  Seems like the the most straight forward path would be to "fix" CVs.  That said, I think what you describe might be what WG had in mind with the rework, and the future inclusion of subs.  I'm not saying that couldn't work.  A lot of things (and attitudes) would need to change to get the game to that point, and it would be a big gamble.      

 

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1 hour ago, Skuggsja said:

Just curious as to what the problems are you're thinking of. Not to argue, just curious.

Ok

2 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

Let us give destroyers DFAA across the board or at least a majority of ships. Let them knock plenty of planes down and to reward this, we give them bonus experience for doing so while friendly ships are within their AA aura.

This would isn't necessary as DFAA is given to destroyers fitting the role of AA escort already, just the part of "let them knock plenty of planes down" gives me chills down my spine since DDs are now the only class that can "bait" planes and then proceed to turn on AA.

2 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

Next, we deal with hydro. Some destroyers already have it but why not all? Change ranges and durations to make them somewhat unique to nations.

Again, it's given to destroyers of certain nations to make them unique, giving all DDs a hydro wouldn't make sense in balancing stuffs since most of the time you don't need a 4km torp detection consumable that increases with commander skill.

2 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

1. A consumable that resupplies the charge of another ship and 2. A consumable that would simulate putting out a fire on other ships, using water cannons to help reduce fire times.

This would make BBs literally unkillable, you'd be giving the repair parties and reducing their fire extinguish time. Limited repairs and fire are the 2 main things that makes cruisers viable against BBs, specially USN ones that can't make a big alpha with torpedoes.

---------------------

 

Now, not all of your thread was "useless", I liked the idea of giving DDs more roles instead of capping/spotting/smoke machine, the idea of adding subs for example was a good idea but CryBBabies and campers wouldn't like this idea...it's been debated since CBT and maybe even before that and if there are people crying about "CVs not being surface ship", imagine with a sub...

 

The idea of giving rewards for teamwork is also good, right now the DD that support others (like giving smoke to a cruiser) are the one that helps their team to victory, at least this is my experience so far, but again, it doesn't give a reward good enough for the trouble of going, sometimes, out of your way to support other ships.

 

The idea of DD vs CV as a scout is that DDs can "permanently" scout ships while CVs sacrifice their DPS by doing so, and because of that it's kinda hard to balance the scouting rewards, in my Kagero games for example I'm always amasing high amount of scout points just by preparing torpedoes to the enemy.

 

All in all, the problem with your thread is that it has good points and bad points within it, and when a player reads the bad point he'll probably just leave without reading the last...it's sad but it's the truth, in another game for example I presented a complete guide to "How GvG should work for each race" in a game called RF Online, but because I started the guide with "The current meta is completely wrong and only focus on the individual", I got insulted and offended for "telling that people are doing things wrong" while my idea was just "Your way works but this way is better". In the end my guild was doing great in GvG and people started saying that "class X is OP" just because we found a better use for that instead of what they had been using them for.

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Your initial premise that destroyers are difficult to counter and extremely dangerous is rather undermined by their having typically the lowest survival rates and average damage despite the concealment. I don't see removing that really helping. Torpedoes might be scary, but the T10 torpedoboats already average about 45-50k damage or, about 0.5 Yamato's per game (before repair). Scary indeed.

Concealment is fundamental to this game because of the ballistics system. Ships with inferior ballistics need typically better concealment. If Gearing and Grozovoi both have 10km concealment, who wins the gunnery duel that ensues? If destroyers can't remain in stealth then they will simply be subjected to continuous bombardment and unable to to anything except dodge that railgun Moskva. If torpedoes hit 7% of the time now, fired from stealth what will revealing the firing position do to that rate?

You don't like the concealment part of the game, but you want to encourage destroyers to smoke up friendlies more? 

Just as some general points:

Carriers spot better

Capping could be done better, but it would be a major change. WG continuing to have Standard Battle mode is pretty demoralizing, and epicenter mostly seems to turn to kill-all mode. 

Destroyers we're envisaged as multi role ships, they didn't cart around up to about 15 torpedoes to help shoot down planes or attack submarines. Many, many of them were pretty terrible at AA and others were terrible at ASW, some were very poor at both. In game adding DFAA will far from transform the AA of many destroyers, 0.01 shot-down x4 is still not worth a thing. 

There was no real towed array in WWII.

Cruisers carried depth charges, but so far as I'm aware only 1 sub was sunk by a cruiser in wwii, and it was by ramming.

Spotting is boring, and you want to introduce submarines to compete for that role as well as destroyers and carriers, to rework destroyers?

Being some battleships consumable caddy sounds about as much fun as golf.

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