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DD vs CV - Easy fix ? What went Wrong ? What went Right ..

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In the past i've always been a DD main, but can play any class well.  and Now a mix between DD and CV main.

I am still able to get out good numbers in CV matches as a DD, but its not as fun having to stay near others in randoms constantly.

The interaction between CV and DD is the most lopsided currently. So What went wrong.. and What Went Right ?

 

Currently.. Cruisers and BB's are fine vs CV's in most cases..  CV's are not putting out  huge damage  numbers over what BB's can do.  And these 2 classes can still function fine staying near other ships most of the match.

 

What did WG get Correct ? - Top 3

1: Planes cannot spot Torps

2: Lowered Detection of DD's vs Planes.

3: CV's cannot perma spot DD's like the old ones could.

 

What did WG get Wrong ? Top 3

1: The damage CV's can do to a DD is to high.

2: DD's can no longer go anywhere alone without high risk.

3:   ?? Top 2 pretty much cover the issues.

 

Now the big question - How Do we make DD's more enjoyable.. without buffing them vs the other classes.. as they do not need any buffs vs Cruisers/DD's/BB's.

 

This comes down to me as a simple solution.  Defensive fire for all DD's and how it works.

Remove Damage Boost that Def fire gives to all DD except Gearing and Groz - as this is currently considered a perk for them.  (This would be the same for all DD tiers that currently give Def Fire)

 

With that..   While DD has defensive fire up - give  CV's a  out Damage Debuff or Accuracy Debuff... VS DD's Only.

What does this give us ? DD's now have 2 ways to defend vs  CV's   Smoke + Def Fire.     

Neither option makes a DD Immune.  you can still damage a DD vs Def Fire.. but if that damage is highly reduced.. This would give a DD more operating room.  

 

 

In short.. just my idea, and not sure it would be perfect.. But i haven't been a fan of most of the other "balance" Ideas i've seen around here.

 

 

 

(This wont ever happen)

An even more fun way would by giving DD's a support aspect.. This is an Arcade game after all.

Planes in a DD's def fire get the following debuff.   Of course Debuff vs BB's would be very small, and not a ton for Crusier's either.

xx% Reduced dmg vs BB's.

xx% Reduced dmg vs CA/Cl's

xx% Reduced dmg vs DD's.

 

 

 

 

 

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Convergence rate debuff for DFAA sounds like it could be interesting. Although it could also be interesting to simply put it on priority sector instead of DFAA.

I wouldn't want to see a minimum convergence debuff though, that RNG [edited] needs to never come back.

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Like many said, make AA a playable factor. Im all aboard CVs spotting DDs, but DDs should be able to outplay CVs, or if they cant, then they need to get into AA cover or die. DFAA is not the solution, counter play is. 

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Honestly, this gives me an idea in general. Why not give everyone a flavor of def AA? Cruisers would get damage buff or something, DDs an accuracy debuff, and BBs... not sure. Hood's would obviously be superior, but have it so people can do something. Maybe def AA allows a BB to get the sector buff on both sides temporarily? Heck, maybe have IJN BB flavor be that they get the DD one, as their AA does kinda suck outside of some outliers. Heck, could make the cruiser def AA not be a direct buff to damage, but a buff to range. Either total range or some flavor of overlap. This would give cruisers back the ally protection capabilities, and also possibly curb the instant death on spotting a T10 US CL for a CV, while still making actually attacking one a death sentence. Everybody wins there. Maybe include a personal detection bloom so as to make it a trade off, as being able to activate it when a CV is already deep in the extended bubble might hurt a tad much.

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What about lower tier DDs and IJN torp boats that have weak AA? You can't polish a poo-poo pile, and defensive fire would still not mean much against planes if your AA rating is low, especially on the longer range weapons.

I like the idea that planes only spot DDs for the CV and only ship spotting will make them visible to all others.

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Lol. The most useless rng based AA game ever...

I did 27k plane damage in a henri last night and shot down 4 planes only. Ok ill just die then

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27 minutes ago, _1204_ said:

Like many said, make AA a playable factor. Im all aboard CVs spotting DDs, but DDs should be able to outplay CVs, or if they cant, then they need to get into AA cover or die. DFAA is not the solution, counter play is. 

I fully agree with this.  DFAA mods or fundamentally messing with AA to benefit a single ship class isn't the durable solution.  A durable solution is exactly what @_1204_ says - creating an effective counter play.  Reduce the spotting range of planes v DDs even more.  I'm not talking like down to 1km or anything like that, but right now the detection is still a little too large.  Doing this would allow the DD to juke and maneuver to avoid detection and would force the CV to spend additional valuable time searching to reacquire the DD as a target.  It would also reduce the time available to setup an effective attack thus providing (1) more survivability because the attack isn't as accurate, on average, and (2) a skill differentiator for those more skilled CV drivers to pull off an effective attack with less time to prepare the attack.

While I'm at it, the whole CV v CV invulnerability thing has to change.  I get the underlying premise, WG doesn't want CV sniping.  That said, at the end of a long game when it is CV+1 ship v CV+1 or just CV v CV, the other ships have ZERO chance of surviving and then it is a contest of two ships who cannot, by design, effectively hurt one another.  This means the design is flawed again, perhaps it is a blanket modification of CV AA so that class isn't completely invulnerable to air attacks.  

In any event, this continuing discussion shows that CVs are still not in a good place and have NO PLACE in a competitive mode, such as the upcoming season of Ranked, until they are better and more effectively balanced.  If and when they get to a better, more balanced state, then I have no problem with them being in randoms, ranked, or any other game mode.  Until then, no thanks.

Comp  #WV44

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6 minutes ago, LookUpAndSpit said:

Lol. The most useless rng based AA game ever...

I did 27k plane damage in a henri last night and shot down 4 planes only. Ok ill just die then

I did 20k plane damage in an AA-spec Grozovoi and got ZERO planes.  The CV killed me from 100% to 0 without returning to the ship.  Completely broken.

Edited by n00bot
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After getting my AA build Groz totally wrecked by an Enterprise Saturday without him losing a single plane from two squads, I'm totally over this rework.

 It didnt fix the skill issue at all, and has made every windowlicker with delusions of grandeur think hes gonna be the next yuro. We still get the massive skill mismatches but we get them 9 out of 10 battles with double the CVs. At least before the rework most bad CV players just didnt play them.

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19 minutes ago, n00bot said:

I did 20k plane damage in an AA-spec Grozovoi and got ZERO planes.  The CV killed me from 100% to 0 without returning to the ship.  Completely broken.

Exactly my point

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Forget about adjusting the AA, with the health disparity between the various CV tiers as well as nations, WG is never going to be able to adjust it so that a DD is going to be able to beat off an attack. 

IF WG actually wanted to change the current CV vs DD meta, then they should try a really simple idea. increase the dispersion of attack fighters and DBs so that they are not capable of the pin point attacks that currently allow them to put a majority of their ordinance onto a target as small as a DD. Make it so that focused dispersion is just over BB size. That would allow CVs to still do damage to all ship types but the smaller (and less XP) ships would take the same amount of attack flights as the larger ships instead of getting nuked in one attack. Seriously, if you can only put 1/6 or 1/3 of the torps on a DD, why should you be able to hit 50%+ of the bombs/rockets

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Maybe its worth giving more usable long range options for DDs. Currently the gearing has the only long range torps that are any good, the shima 20kms are pretty inferior and other DDs are limited to 10-12km. Giving an alternate torpedo option to give 16ish km option and buffing the range on the 12 km shima peds would at least give the dds an ability to participate while huddled under friendly AA.

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W/ AA off and ship / cap'n concealment skills, a CV must waste a massive amount of time hunting for a DD.  Anyone suggesting this range should be narrowed.... well you're playing the ship wrong.   In order for a CV to do massive damage to a DD it must know EXACTLY WHERE IT WILL BE --- I'll say that again, the CV MUST KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THE DD WILL BE when they begin the attack run.  Do I need to say it a 3rd time?  99% of the DDs I stumble across have AA on thus tripling the size of their detection area.   I can strike a DD hard, regularly, because they don't even try to evade. 

Yes, every DD runs w/ AA on for whatever reason -- I don't know.  So until I repeatedly see people properly playing the class and using their brains, no change should occur.

Edited by NoSoMo

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CV vs DD is broken. Worse than it was, actually. Yet, people keep handing over real money to play the game. 

smh. 

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4 hours ago, Spyde said:

In the past i've always been a DD main, but can play any class well.  and Now a mix between DD and CV main.

I am still able to get out good numbers in CV matches as a DD, but its not as fun having to stay near others in randoms constantly.

The interaction between CV and DD is the most lopsided currently. So What went wrong.. and What Went Right ?

 

Currently.. Cruisers and BB's are fine vs CV's in most cases..  CV's are not putting out  huge damage  numbers over what BB's can do.  And these 2 classes can still function fine staying near other ships most of the match.

 

What did WG get Correct ? - Top 3

1: Planes cannot spot Torps

2: Lowered Detection of DD's vs Planes.

3: CV's cannot perma spot DD's like the old ones could.

 

What did WG get Wrong ? Top 3

1: The damage CV's can do to a DD is to high.

2: DD's can no longer go anywhere alone without high risk.

3:   ?? Top 2 pretty much cover the issues.

 

Now the big question - How Do we make DD's more enjoyable.. without buffing them vs the other classes.. as they do not need any buffs vs Cruisers/DD's/BB's.

 

This comes down to me as a simple solution.  Defensive fire for all DD's and how it works.

Remove Damage Boost that Def fire gives to all DD except Gearing and Groz - as this is currently considered a perk for them.  (This would be the same for all DD tiers that currently give Def Fire)

 

With that..   While DD has defensive fire up - give  CV's a  out Damage Debuff or Accuracy Debuff... VS DD's Only.

What does this give us ? DD's now have 2 ways to defend vs  CV's   Smoke + Def Fire.     

Neither option makes a DD Immune.  you can still damage a DD vs Def Fire.. but if that damage is highly reduced.. This would give a DD more operating room.  

 

 

In short.. just my idea, and not sure it would be perfect.. But i haven't been a fan of most of the other "balance" Ideas i've seen around here.

 

 

 

(This wont ever happen)

An even more fun way would by giving DD's a support aspect.. This is an Arcade game after all.

Planes in a DD's def fire get the following debuff.   Of course Debuff vs BB's would be very small, and not a ton for Crusier's either.

xx% Reduced dmg vs BB's.

xx% Reduced dmg vs CA/Cl's

xx% Reduced dmg vs DD's.

 

 

 

 

 

...or we could just make DDs the correct size scale...and leave the aiming reticle the same size. I.e. shrink the DD in game.

Harder to hit the DD (as it should be) and not changing things that arent broken...

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6 hours ago, Thornir said:

CV vs DD is broken. Worse than it was, actually. Yet, people keep handing over real money to play the game. 

smh. 

Maybe because those players that spend money arent whiny DD mains?? :cap_book:

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19 hours ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

Maybe because those players that spend money arent whiny DD mains?? :cap_book:

They’re even whinier BB mains.

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On 4/22/2019 at 11:44 AM, h9k_a said:

they should try a really simple idea. increase the dispersion of attack fighters and DBs so that they are not capable of the pin point attacks that currently allow them to put a majority of their ordinance onto a target as small as a DD. Make it so that focused dispersion is just over BB size. That would allow CVs to still do damage to all ship types but the smaller (and less XP) ships would take the same amount of attack flights as the larger ships instead of getting nuked in one attack.

This is a REALY GOOD, EASY TO IMPLEMENT FIX that bears repeating to get more attention. 

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5 minutes ago, n00bot said:

This is a REALY GOOD, EASY TO IMPLEMENT FIX that bears repeating to get more attention. 

Or just scale destroyers to proper size with respect to the other ships...

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2: DD's can no longer go anywhere alone without high risk.

giphy.gif

"i_cant_sail_alone_anymore_in_a_team_game.jpg"

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On 4/22/2019 at 11:25 AM, n00bot said:

I did 20k plane damage in an AA-spec Grozovoi and got ZERO planes.  The CV killed me from 100% to 0 without returning to the ship.  Completely broken.

YUUUUUP! This is what people who say "adapt" don't understand. I spent many, many hours getting a 19 point commander and legendary module right before 8.0. The way the game is now, all of that time, effort, camos and flags I used also basically went to waste. It's one less ship I can play just sitting in my port. BB players don't care and CA players don't care since they are unaffected. On the plus side, the rework did make cruisers more relevant than ever.

Meanwhile a CV without many upgrades can spot a DD like the Grozovoi and the Groz can do little to nothing to counter the attack. Even if you get a few planes which is rare, the Groz's turning radius is bad and the smoke reload takes a while so you get pummeled by the CV and any ship within firing range.

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4 minutes ago, HyenaHiena said:

2: DD's can no longer go anywhere alone without high risk.

 

"i_cant_sail_alone_anymore_in_a_team_game.jpg"

Another one of those rules that only apply to surface ships and not the superior class.

 

2 minutes ago, FiveStarMojo said:

YUUUUUP! This is what people who say "adapt" don't understand. I spent many, many hours getting a 19 point commander and legendary module right before 8.0. The way the game is now, all of that time, effort, camos and flags I used also basically went to waste. It's one less ship I can play just sitting in my port. BB players don't care and CA players don't care since they are unaffected. On the plus side, the rework did make cruisers more relevant than ever.

Meanwhile a CV without many upgrades can spot a DD like the Grozovoi and the Groz can do little to nothing to counter the attack. Even if you get a few planes which is rare, the Groz's turning radius is bad and the smoke reload takes a while so you get pummeled by the CV and any ship within firing range.

Nope, some of us CA players are here because we are tired of people on the forum saying "just turn 5 degrees to be safe" or "just sail next to someone else" because I have done those things and still get struck by the CV.

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My solution to the entire rework is to remove the CVs spotting ability.  What they see doesnt get communicated to the team. The alpha damage of a CV is less of a concern for a lot of ships than the spotting ability, especially a lot of ships with good AA that can defend themselves and a CV likely wouldn't attack anyway. 

If a DD wants to press their luck and take a CV flight on one vs. one with smoke and manuverabilty and AA go for it.  If a Henri or Wooster or Mino wants to ninja off and press a sneaky flank go for it.  It would help CVs by spreading g the game out more and would help DDs by giving them the ability to have some aggression back without fear of being attacked from above and focused by the entire team and it would help the gameplay overall by making it less campy.

CVs cant be balanced with the rest of the ships because they dont play by the same rules and have the same mechanics.  So have them play their game of FPS planes vs AI/RNG AA and the rest of can play our version of the game as we did before the rework of surface vs surface combat.  

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There is a simple soultion to the CV vs DD problem, CV spotting works for them fully like now but Spoting for team mates have it work Like spotting when in a storm. There problem solved. No need for more complicated measures. Even with the reduced spotting by CV's on DD's hasn't helped enough. DD are and have always been a priority target for EVERYONE. Stealth is their only real defense. CV's remove that defense in it's entirity. Sure the DD can smoke but if the CV is patient as soon as the smoke expires it's bad news for the DD. 

Vs Radar/Sonar a DD can run, Not an option with a CV. 

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On 4/22/2019 at 1:18 PM, LookUpAndSpit said:

Lol. The most useless rng based AA game ever...

I did 27k plane damage in a henri last night and shot down 4 planes only. Ok ill just die then

 

On 4/22/2019 at 1:25 PM, n00bot said:

I did 20k plane damage in an AA-spec Grozovoi and got ZERO planes.  The CV killed me from 100% to 0 without returning to the ship.  Completely broken.

What happened???

Both of these were good...or at least serviceable AA ships.  Did I miss something where WG swung the hammer back in the other direction?

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