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Some ideas for a CV rework of the CV rework

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After watching NoZoupForYou's video about carriers I thinked for a while and decided to make this post to share some ideas (can be great or just pure garbage, of course I can be 200% wrong):

He said in the video 2 very important things: 

- Reduce a lot CV AA 

- Make their concealment much worse

 

I think those two statements make A LOT of sense but are not viable as CVs are right now, that would only make CV sniping a all game match race to see who kill the enemy CV faster but if the CVs where a bit different that could be more than viable, let me explain:

 

CVs would have even worse concealment than GK (they sure are shorter but they are huge vertical floating bricks) and have around the same AA as the same Tier and same nation BB if not worse, CVs will still have the Fighters in the ship and squadrons for extra AA defense but not longer the best AA (with the exception of pure AA ships like Worcester or Minotaur), this seem like a huge deal but please read the next part before telling me how wrong I'm

 

Leave the armor the same but give them the amount of HP that the BBs of the same nation and tier have plus the health of one full squadron of the same Tier (for example Hakuryu would have around 130k health) and buff the secondaries a lot (to around 10km with 25mm pen) some national favours could work here too like German 1/4 pen or IJN 100mm also quarter HE pen, give then AP too and make that you can aim them manually or leave them in auto while you are controlling the planes. This extra health and actually usable secondaries but with being spotted from the Moon and the just BB or worse AA would force CVs to push with the team, of course without a heal and the same meh armor you would be required to be well positioned to survive longer but at the same time would allow you to send your planes faster, use secondaries to set some fires, citadel some light cruisers or just defend yourself, sharing AA with your team to not just be enemy CV food that you would if you just camp in the very corner of the map.

Also being closer to the enemy would allow the enemy team to actually punish a bad CV player but with the massive HP pool if you do some mistakes could still survive longer, but lacking a heal and with your mediocre armor you cannot even hope to sustain enemy fire for too long even with that amount of health. Maybe WG could give Graf Zeppeling her hydro back, add a smaller radar to US CVs, maybe some very good HE for IJN and British CVs or even create some new national flavours.

 

The hole point to this is to avoid CVs camping in the back and being WoWs arty, forcing them to push but able to take some punches doing so.

This is just ideas on the CV itself and not the planes, there are A TON of post out there about and I think it's interesting to change the role of a CV from pure sniper to a pseudo front line ship that rewards intelligent plays.

Sorry for my bad English grammar, hope didn't made a lot of mistakes and you can read it without much trouble

I may be completely wrong and just having the worst idea ever but I'm sure you are going to tell me if that's the case, however please be polite, I'm just in the same situation as you are and all I want is the game to improve, have a wonderful day 

 

(I'm reposting it because it was automatically changed into NoZoupForYou's post whithout any apparent reason, sorry)

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If the opposing CV camps stationary, it gets sunk in short order. If it is moving around, it is a much tougher target. Leave things alone and wait until the stats numbers get analyzed properly and show trends. The detection distance is already an issue as it is too low in many people's opinion (not mine). There is already a tendency, very noted at that, for DDs to go CV hunting in single CV games in Randoms. In Co-op, bot DDs are programmed to do it. Those who think that CVs are nothing but trouble have not learned how to play against them, DDs especially, and those ships that rush to cap and don't pay attention to support and use team AA bubbles to stay alive are asking to die. 

Running a CV is not an automatic win either, as my win rate in CVs since the rework is now only slightly higher than my general overall average. If you are in a T6 or T8 CV and are low tier, your chances of doing much damage to higher tier ships are very limited and you must await the endgame, after your team has ground the other side down and enemy ships get spread out, damaged, and isolated from their supports to farm hit points. All of my ship kills are on damaged ships, even at Tier 10. The AA is tough to deal with. This is historical, especially against USN and RN high-tier ships. I have only managed one clean kill on a full health ship, an Atago, using AP bombs from Enterprise, it took 7 hits to get it in three passes, and it cost me my entire DB squadron for the rest of the game. CV play is not simple.

Prior to the rework I hardly ever played CVs. Since the rework, I play them regularly, but not as much as the other ship types. Working as intended. IMHO

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CV AA is very strong to make attacking them with planes an expensive proposition so we are not back to CV sniping like in the RTS era.

CV's are already spotted from the Oort Cloud now, making it even worse just guarantees that they will find an island to camp behind. If you want CV's to push they need to have very low detection.

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Also, High tier Japanese CV's need a rework all their own, as playing a Shokaku or Hakyryu in even AT tier games you lose too many planes just trying to attack even dd's, lost 6 out out 9 planes against a benson just trying to reach him, and the 3 survivors didn't even get back to the ship, if you make the planes that fragile for attacks, then at least buff the recharge rate so they don't just sit there waiting for a wing so they can MAYBE do 5k damage for half the damn game, it got so bad i rage sold that particular line of cv's as it is only good in co-op now.....

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2 minutes ago, OneFlyingFool said:

Also, High tier Japanese CV's need a rework all their own, as playing a Shokaku or Hakyryu in even AT tier games you lose too many planes just trying to attack even dd's, lost 6 out out 9 planes against a benson just trying to reach him, and the 3 survivors didn't even get back to the ship, if you make the planes that fragile for attacks, then at least buff the recharge rate so they don't just sit there waiting for a wing so they can MAYBE do 5k damage for half the damn game, it got so bad i rage sold that particular line of cv's as it is only good in co-op now.....

I disagree here. With armor buffs by Sho can usually make multiple attacks runs on same tier targets. Of course picking the right target matters.

Now that Hak....that thing is a mess. I don't even bother playing it so I kinda agree about it. It's a whole different beast than the Sho IMO.

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

CV AA is very strong to make attacking them with planes an expensive proposition so we are not back to CV sniping like in the RTS era.

CV's are already spotted from the Oort Cloud now, making it even worse just guarantees that they will find an island to camp behind. If you want CV's to push they need to have very low detection.

I agree with you. I don't think those two particular suggestions that Zoup had will really do what he thinks they will. First of all CVs DID have heavy AA suites compared to a lot of other ships. That was a function of their size. Even a small CV is 5 to 10x the size of a DD. Even with the deck used for flight operations they have a lot of space on the edges for AA. Artificially reducing their AA would only cause them to refuse to use their fighter cover for anyone else because they need it to protect themselves and that isn't desirable. Truthfully CV AA is not what stops CVs from attacking each other. I'll happily attack the other CV if I have it is close enough to be worthwhile. The issue with attacking the other CV is it is usually on the opposite side of the map  not directly pressing objectives. It is a waste of limited game time to attack the CV hull riding the back row rather than the BB or DD which is pressing a cap or directly pressing your team. 

Increasing CV detectability also doesn't really do much for much the same reason. It doesn't matter if you can spot the enemy Lexington at 20km. Who is going to realistically attack it at that range if it is moving? If you manage it once it will just move behind an island. 

 

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13 minutes ago, OneFlyingFool said:

Also, High tier Japanese CV's need a rework all their own, as playing a Shokaku or Hakyryu in even AT tier games you lose too many planes just trying to attack even dd's, lost 6 out out 9 planes against a benson just trying to reach him, and the 3 survivors didn't even get back to the ship, if you make the planes that fragile for attacks, then at least buff the recharge rate so they don't just sit there waiting for a wing so they can MAYBE do 5k damage for half the damn game, it got so bad i rage sold that particular line of cv's as it is only good in co-op now.....

Don't take this wrong but attacking an AA specced Benson is bad target selection for an IJN CV. Just leave it alone and go after something else. AA specced DDs with DP guns will eat too many planes for too little good return. IJN CVs aren't really good against DDs in general and AA specced ones are a nightmare. They just don't have the tools. Their rockets are weak and their big AP bombs are inaccurate and just overpen DDs (assuming you are lucky enough to hit). They do much better against BBs and larger cruisers. 

 

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3 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

CV AA is very strong to make attacking them with planes an expensive proposition so we are not back to CV sniping like in the RTS era.

CV's are already spotted from the Oort Cloud now, making it even worse just guarantees that they will find an island to camp behind. If you want CV's to push they need to have very low detection.

The key to pushing with a CV is managing engine boost in transit to the target to shorten the travel time. You can move up the ship some but it is an absolute must to stay undetected and moving. Parking a CV behind an island is a magnet for dive bombers (and DDs). Constant motion is the key, while playing attention to the minimap and what your team is doing to open things up. You can use islands to mask your movements but on half the maps that is not an option.

I don't have a problem with CV detection range by ships or aircraft, but I do have one with ships' , especially DDs', detection by aircraft and vice-versa. What make matters worse is what nation's CV you are using, as it varies from country to country and with aircraft type and tier. At this point almost 70% of the players are running AA builds with DFAA on everything that can take it. Gven the low weapons' killing power of aircraft munitions, especially torpedoes, you gotta roll some mighty RNG to get acceptable scores even with the multipliers they currently use. The best I have done so far, single game, is 128,000+ in Kaga, without being uptiered, in a win. I am new to that ship, I was not top of the board (4th), I got no heroic achievements, I only got one kill on a damaged ship, and it was not a walkover as there were only 4 of us left on both sides at the end as we won on points. Most of my Random games, even at T10, are around half to two thirds that level.

Carriers make money because of the high mulitpliers but it takes a CV unicum driver to carry in one. Last time I looked, I was not in that category!

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2 minutes ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

The key to pushing with a CV is managing engine boost in transit to the target to shorten the travel time. You can move up the ship some but it is an absolute must to stay undetected and moving. Parking a CV behind an island is a magnet for dive bombers (and DDs). Constant motion is the key, while playing attention to the minimap and what your team is doing to open things up. You can use islands to mask your movements but on half the maps that is not an option.

I don't have a problem with CV detection range by ships or aircraft, but I do have one with ships' , especially DDs', detection by aircraft and vice-versa. What make matters worse is what nation's CV you are using, as it varies from country to country and with aircraft type and tier. At this point almost 70% of the players are running AA builds with DFAA on everything that can take it. Gven the low weapons' killing power of aircraft munitions, especially torpedoes, you gotta roll some mighty RNG to get acceptable scores even with the multipliers they currently use. The best I have done so far, single game, is 128,000+ in Kaga, without being uptiered, in a win. I am new to that ship, I was not top of the board (4th), I got no heroic achievements, I only got one kill on a damaged ship, and it was not a walkover as there were only 4 of us left on both sides at the end as we won on points. Most of my Random games, even at T10, are around half to two thirds that level.

Carriers make money because of the high mulitpliers but it takes a CV unicum driver to carry in one. Last time I looked, I was not in that category!

You can sit behind islands but it depends on the island and the map. Once enemy ships start to get close and that is quite far away you need to get on the move.

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