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NoZoupForYou

Fixing Carriers - Five Tweaks

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First, I don't think CVs should be in ranked right now.  That's a recipe for disaster.  I lay out 5 tweaks I think can help CVs.

CV related - Less Concealment, Less AA

Squadron related - Even less DD spotting, Limited flight time, Cyclical attacks (to eliminate F key, DB, F Key, DB.)

These would go a long way in making it so CVs are vulnerable, which they need to be, while making it more comfortable for DDs.

 

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They won't listen bro.  They are sticking CVs in freaking ranked for pete's sake. 0.8.4 is their last of the focus patches on CV game play, so what we see now is what we will have for most likely the next year+.  They are rolling forward at all costs.  They think a delay of 45 seconds at the start of the match is going to fix the problems with CVs.  That is how out of touch they are with their own game.  There needs to be a hard counter to CV's and currently there isn't.

Let me add to your list:

  • Fighter Planes should be the only planes that can spot for other ships while attack planes should only show enemy ships on mini map.
  • Attack Planes need to have a max range on their attacks.
  • DFAA / Ship Based Fighters needs to actually do something
  • If you spec every captain point (8) and place every module (3) on an AA cruiser, it should delete planes 100% after 1 drop.
  • AA fire needs to make aiming recitals on bombs and rockets move a lot more and effect drop clustering by a quantitative amount based on amount of incoming AA Fire.

After those "nerfs" are applied:

  • Fighter Consumable should be a controllable plane to shoot down other CV's attack planes.
  • Make CV's have a higher dot chance co-efficient.
  • Make CV's planes have longer running burst to target (but no burst while attacking).
  • Make CV's able to strike other CV's effectively.
  • Give CV's tools combat other CV's (and their planes) more effectively

 

 

Edited by ph3l0n
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Wouldn't less concealment mean CV playera will just push back into the edges of the map more?

Edited by Koogus
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By the numbers, CVs are balanced.  Having said that, it is abundantly clear that many players are having issues with CVs.  But by “making it so CVs are vulnerable” the class will be gutted, I have no doubt.

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Replace the word 'tweaks' with 'massive crushing nerfs' and you get an idea of what this video is all about.

Perhaps you should also include a list of massive buffs you wish to include to account for all those nerfs, Zoup.

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14 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

I don't think CVs should be in ranked right now.  That's a recipe for disaster.

so true...

Also, i agree with your observations about cvs. cv vs cv mechanics must be implemented. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

By the numbers, CVs are balanced.  Having said that, it is abundantly clear that many players are having issues with CVs.  But by “making it so CVs are vulnerable” the class will be gutted, I have no doubt.

What numbers? And balanced with what? It certainly isnt other surface ships lol!

Why shouldnt they be vulnerable? The rest of the classes are!

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They really need to take away shared spotting 

 They play in a different reality than the surface ships 

  I think this would be the best and easiest fix for a lot of issues with them

 Just let their planes get info to the rest of the group on the Mini map only

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Just now, silverdahc said:

They really need to take away shared spotting 

 They play in a different reality than the surface ships 

  I think this would be the best and easiest fix for a lot of issues with them

 Just let their planes get info to the rest of the group on the Mini map only

Their ONLY team support mechanic is spotting as they can neither safely cap nor tank. So if you take away their ability to spot for the team, what would be your suggested new mechanic to help them?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum. If a class has currently balanced average damage numbers, then for anything you remove, something must be added. That's how balance works.

The only reason players are butthurt by CVs is because they negate concealment camping and solo yolo play. But they always have since the very beginning of the game. That's what they are there for. That's their design.

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5 tweaks to fix carrier play

1 - remove them

2 - remove them

3 - remove them

4 - remove them

5 - remove them

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2 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Their ONLY team support mechanic is spotting as they can neither safely cap nor tank. So if you take away their ability to spot for the team, what would be your suggested new mechanic to help them?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum. If a class has currently balanced average damage numbers, then for anything you remove, something must be added. That's how balance works.

The only reason players are butthurt by CVs is because they negate concealment camping and solo yolo play. But they always have since the very beginning of the game. That's what they are there for. That's their design.

 I don't know what reality you live in but they have a totally different play style than everybody else

Why do they get a have the cake and eat it too

No other class can do everything they can

If you have to limit them in numbers per game than obviously they're overpowered versus everybody else

Go ahead put them in the game but they shouldn't dictate how every body else plays the game because of them,  If they do dictate how everybody else plays the game then they're not a good fit and a to be fixed

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12 minutes ago, dieselhead_1 said:

What numbers? And balanced with what? It certainly isnt other surface ships lol!

Why shouldnt they be vulnerable? The rest of the classes are!

Given the same tier bracket, CVs on the average do damage compatible with BBs of the same tier.  Should you alter this balance, majority of players will stop playing CVs.  Which is fine by me, but ruins one of the major goals of this rework.

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14 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

CV related - Less Concealment, Less AA

Squadron related - Even less DD spotting, Limited flight time, Cyclical attacks (to eliminate F key, DB, F Key, DB.)

People shoot at the CV as soon as it is visible/in range. Increasing detect ability for CVs seems like a good way to get them killed early and CVs rely on DOT so that just won't do. Maybe something like having Concealment Expert and Concealment System Modification only apply to the squadrons and not the CV hull would be more appropriate. Increasing base detect ability just makes those two required.

Less AA makes some sense considering and would open the possibility for more strikes against CVs but I do not think that it will encourage anyone to escort a CV just for AA. A lot of people in this game hate CVs and will happily hang their friendly CV out to dry so its best for CVs to have some level of self sufficiency either by improving their fighter consumable (which would make sense from a fleet support perspective as well) or having decent AA.

I honestly agree with less DD spotting but a lot of that is due to many DDs not turning off their AA to avoid being detected (press P key to turn AA on and off). Like the suggestion of only being spotted for the CV and not the team but if they wouldn't do this for radar I doubt they would do it for planes. Reduce air spoting for DDs and add a clear indicator that you can switch your AA on or off and that you can enforce sectors. You have a clear indicator as to what shell types you can use but there is very limited indicators for AA. This would help especially for players who don't know they have these options or might forget mid battle. I think fighters (both CV and catapult) should not be able to spot ships but should also not be shot down by AA so that they are just a pure planes vs planes interaction.

Limited flight time makes perfect sense. The 2 minutes you suggested seems about right to me for tier IV and VI but I think it should increase to 2:30 and 3 minutes for tiers VIII and X since they have better planes and bigger maps.

I do not like the cyclical attacks idea. If you have planes of whatever type you want you should be able to launch them even if you can only put up one. I should be able to select the best available planes for the target and not have to rely on which planes I am on in my cycle. Other ships do not have to alternate between AP and HE shells every time they fire. A good CV should be alternating anyway to keep squads as close to full as possible but they should have the option anyway. 

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7 minutes ago, silverdahc said:

 I don't know what reality you live in but they have a totally different play style than everybody else

Why do they get a have the cake and eat it too

No other class can do everything they can

If you have to limit them in numbers per game than obviously they're overpowered versus everybody else

Go ahead put them in the game but they shouldn't dictate how every body else plays the game because of them,  If they do dictate how everybody else plays the game then they're not a good fit and a to be fixed

And why the hell not? Seriously? If I play a cruiser and a battleship has line of sight to me, I will play differently. If I play a DD and there's a radar cruiser nearby, I will play differently. If I'm a battleship and I know there's a DD lurking nearby, I will play differently.

*Every single ship in the game* is forced to adapt when their logical counter is nearby. Not doing so means being dev struck. In fact, CVs are the least effective counter as they don't have the ability to dev strike and it sometimes takes quite a few attacks to down a ship. CVs are all about steady and consistent damage, not sending a massive wave of 20k damage torps at a target that has to dodge or potentially instantly die.

And for that, they lose out on a lot. They can't cap unless the entire enemy team is far away. They obviously can't tank. In general, being spotted for a CV is a death sentence as *everyone* focuses their fire on them for good reason.

There's this perception that CVs are these broken gods that can do anything they want. But anyone playing CVs even a little, especially in the mid tiers, knows very exactly why this is not true. No other ship in the game suffers as much from ships grouping up. Good play from the enemy team can shut down CVs pretty solidly. So much so that Wargaming had to nerf overlapping AA so that CVs even stand a chance.

CVs ARE NOT OVERPOWERED! You want overpowered? Go to the chinese server where they still play with the old RTS CVs that had *significantly* better spotting power, could instantly dev strike ANY ship they wanted, and could spread across the map countered only by the skill of the enemy CV. In fact, whichever team had the most skilled CV would automatically win the game.

Is that what you want to go back to? 

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I've been playing CVs almost exclusively since the rework and I would have no problem with upping carrier concealment. I doubt it would make much of a difference though. It might result in occasional long-range pot-shots but if the CV is in the open and in range to be shot he deserves what he gets. That is a very rare thing though. 

As for the AA I don't think that will really do anything beneficial and it will be detrimental l to team play. What will happen is the CVs won't  use their fighter to help the team. They'll need to keep it for self defense. Also, it isn't that hard to attack the other CV now. It just isn't that worthwhile due to distance more than anything else. IT isn't that CVs have god-tier AA.  Cruisers and some DDs and BBs are have much nastier AA.  If the other CV is in the far corner of the map, you aren't going to attack it. It is just ineffective cost-benefit-wise. The CV is going to go after the front-line ships because those are the ones having the most direct impact on the game. 

The flight timer might be an interesting idea but I don't think it does anything much unless it is set quite short. CVs rarely have their planes out for long periods of time. They don't want to because it isn't productive. I think the cooldown idea so you can't reuse the same squadron may have some merit and they can do that by slowing the return flight time back to the carrier rather than by implementing a new cooldown. They would have to balance it so that CV damage doesn't get worse than it already is though.

I think the best idea is regarding mitigating the effects on DDs. Honestly rather than just preventing CVs from relaying the DD's position, I think the better option is implement a delay in CV spotting similar to the radar detection delay. With planes' high speed vs. the DD's tiny air spotting distance that would make it much harder for the planes to keep the DD perma-spotted but it wouldn't impact spotting on larger ships much at all. 

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34 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Their ONLY team support mechanic is spotting as they can neither safely cap nor tank. So if you take away their ability to spot for the team, what would be your suggested new mechanic to help them?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum. If a class has currently balanced average damage numbers, then for anything you remove, something must be added. That's how balance works.

The only reason players are butthurt by CVs is because they negate concealment camping and solo yolo play. But they always have since the very beginning of the game. That's what they are there for. That's their design.

Could make CVs the best at damage defending caps, surviving and kills/death.

Oh wait, they are already the best at all of those in addition  to being the best at spotting

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8 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

Could make CVs the best at damage defending caps, surviving and kills/death.

Oh wait, they are already the best at all of those in addition  to being the best at spotting

Surviving and kills/death are inherent in the class simply because they stay far back. But the moment they are spotted, they get focus fired like no other. I'll concede to them being strong at defending caps, mind you. I think the only fix here is to lower their battle time XP multipliers as that is what's giving them too much XP.

Also, best at spotting is iffy. They are the *fastest* at spotting, not necessarily the best. DDs can way outspot ships compared to CVs and can do so without taking any damage unless they can spotted by other DDs and carriers that know where they are. At high tiers, carrier planes WILL take hits while spotting from cruiser long range auras. Also, unlike DDs, carriers cannot both spot and attack. The moment they drop their ordinance and return their planes, the spotting instantly stops. Also, WG are implementing a start of the match timer to plane launches soon. I DO agree with that decision.

There's a fundamental difference in how DDs and carriers spot. Understanding those differences is important in evaluating pros and cons.

At this point, there's considerable echo chamber effects here because hating on CVs is trendy on these forums. This is despite the fact that CVs are MUCH weaker than they used to be. I'm absolutely positive players would lose their fraking minds if RTS carriers made a comeback and were just as popular again as they were at game launch. The only difference between now and a year ago is that RTS CVs became so complex at high tiers that no one played them anymore, and hence newer players never learned proper CV counterplay as they never saw them in matches.

Edited by KaptainKaybe

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52 minutes ago, silverdahc said:

They really need to take away shared spotting 

 They play in a different reality than the surface ships 

  I think this would be the best and easiest fix for a lot of issues with them

 Just let their planes get info to the rest of the group on the Mini map only

I think this is a positive suggestion as it isn't one that directly 'damages' the CV, but I would be interested in how many XP/Credits this would reduce their end result by. Why do I agree? Whereas CV planes hurt DDs, I believe a certain amount of damage is done by other ships firing on the DD as well. Reducing one element may help balance - I prefer smaller 'tweaks' than bigger ones, so I would refrain from changing the CV hit rate or damage until the outcome can be assessed.

48 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Their ONLY team support mechanic is spotting as they can neither safely cap nor tank. So if you take away their ability to spot for the team, what would be your suggested new mechanic to help them?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum. If a class has currently balanced average damage numbers, then for anything you remove, something must be added. That's how balance works.

The only reason players are butthurt by CVs is because they negate concealment camping and solo yolo play. But they always have since the very beginning of the game. That's what they are there for. That's their design.

You are correct, but if the CV spotting shows up on the mini-map then it will still count as spotting. And when you say damage numbers, what do you mean? As shown with the DDs, 'damage' isn't everything and some ships do not have to cause damage to be influential in game. Wasn't that what many said about the DD spotting for other ships? "Now - now DD, you don't have to cause damage to be valuable; run along now". The DD has had the lowest damage, lowest survival and lowest rewards of all ship types for years - why now does there have to be a balance?

It has already been stated that certain ships have certain roles; so as long as a good game in a CV rewards the same XP/Credits as a good game in any other ship - isn't that all that counts? WG could start with 2 areas:

1. Giving any ship type a reasonable chance of surviving into the game so a player can contribute.

2. If a player has a good game he/she should have equal rewards as if they had a good game in any ship type.

Then it is fine that certain ships have their roles:

1. A CV scouting and hitting targets all over the map and lending help where needed quickly (as well as providing air cover).

2. A BB damaging other BBs and CAs.

3. CAs providing support against BBs and fighting CAs/CLs and DDs - CLs Providing support to BBs/CAs/CLs/DDs and using their consumables.

4. DDs scouting, hunting other DDs, trying to cap and 'scaring' ships with torpedoes.

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Nerfing CV concealment sure, but keep it reasonable: with the upcoming nerf to T6/8/10 CVs, having to park farther in back means fewer sorties, which in turn means less damage--definitely a bad place to go.

I'd said before, during RTS CV days, the adding DF was a mistake. It made it so needlessly difficult to defeat the red CV. A better solution is the CV's AA vanishes after a certain number of minutes. Most matches are decided 10-15min, in my exp, so having the CV's AA DPS cut by half afterwards is a reasonable nerf. It's ridiculous (for game balance) when your CV can't do much damage because of the AA.

DD concealment is fine as is. The aerial detection buff made for a ridiculous change, but it's not game-breaking. I can get behind the CV not lighting DD for the team, but let there be a 6-second delay before it's visible to the CV's team. Besides, any DD that runs AA build, from Grozo to Shima, is a serious threat to even Audacious planes. DD AA is also good enough since it usually takes repeated cruiser/BB HE to destroy it anyway.

Limited flight time and nerfing CV concealment do not mix well. As a CV casual, I have a major problem with being nerfed hard. Limiting my sorties is no different from limiting another ship class's weaponry.

Cyclical rotation makes zero sense. Let the CV decide how to use his ship. Shoehorning just kills the appeal and easily the rework's purpose of making it more attractive to average players.

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24 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Surviving and kills/death are inherent in the class simply because they stay far back. But the moment they are spotted, they get focus fired like no other. I'll concede to them being strong at defending caps, mind you. I think the only fix here is to lower their battle time XP multipliers as that is what's giving them too much XP.

Also, best at spotting is iffy. They are the *fastest* at spotting, not necessarily the best. DDs can way outspot ships compared to CVs and can do so without taking any damage unless they can spotted by other DDs and carriers that know where they are. At high tiers, carrier planes WILL take hits while spotting from cruiser long range auras. Also, unlike DDs, carriers cannot both spot and attack. The moment they drop their ordinance and return their planes, the spotting instantly stops. Also, WG are implementing a start of the match timer to plane launches soon. I DO agree with that decision.

There's a fundamental difference in how DDs and carriers spot. Understanding those differences is important in evaluating pros and cons.

At this point, there's considerable echo chamber effects here because hating on CVs is trendy on these forums. This is despite the fact that CVs are MUCH weaker than they used to be. I'm absolutely positive players would lose their fraking minds if RTS carriers made a comeback and were just as popular again as they were at game launch. The only difference between now and a year ago is that RTS CVs became so complex at high tiers that no one played them anymore, and hence newer players never learned proper CV counterplay as they never saw them in matches.

 

How is this fair to Gearing players?

 

 

CV.png

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After watching NoZoupForYou's video about carriers I thinked for a while and decided to make this post to share some ideas (can be great or just pure garbage, of course I can be 200% wrong):

He said in the video 2 very important things: 

- Reduce a lot CV AA 

- Make their concealment much worse

 

I think those two statements make A LOT of sense but are not viable as CVs are right now, that would only make CV sniping a all game match race to see who kill the enemy CV faster but if the CVs where a bit different that could be more than viable, let me explain:

 

CVs would have even worse concealment than GK (they sure are shorter but they are huge vertical floating bricks) and have around the same AA as the same Tier and same nation BB if not worse, CVs will still have the Fighters in the ship and squadrons for extra AA defense but not longer the best AA (with the exception of pure AA ships like Worcester or Minotaur), this seem like a huge deal but please read the next part before telling me how wrong I'm

 

Leave the armor the same but give them the amount of HP that the BBs of the same nation and tier have plus the health of one full squadron of the same Tier (for example Hakuryu would have around 130k health) and buff the secondaries a lot (to around 10km with 25mm pen) some national favours could work here too like German 1/4 pen or IJN 100mm also quarter HE pen, give then AP too and make that you can aim them manually or leave them in auto while you are controlling the planes. This extra health and actually usable secondaries but with being spotted from the Moon and the just BB or worse AA would force CVs to push with the team, of course without a heal and the same meh armor you would be required to be well positioned to survive longer but at the same time would allow you to send your planes faster, use secondaries to set some fires, citadel some light cruisers or just defend yourself, sharing AA with your team to not just be enemy CV food that you would if you just camp in the very corner of the map.

Also being closer to the enemy would allow the enemy team to actually punish a bad CV player but with the massive HP pool if you do some mistakes could still survive longer, but lacking a heal and with your mediocre armor you cannot even hope to sustain enemy fire for too long even with that amount of health. Maybe WG could give Graf Zeppeling her hydro back, add a smaller radar to US CVs, maybe some very good HE for IJN and British CVs or even create some new national flavours.

 

The hole point to this is to avoid CVs camping in the back and being WoWs arty, forcing them to push but able to take some punches doing so.

This is just ideas on the CV itself and not the planes, there are A TON of post out there about and I think it's interesting to change the role of a CV from pure sniper to a pseudo front line ship that rewards intelligent plays.

Sorry for my bad English grammar, hope didn't made a lot of mistakes and you can read it without much trouble

I may be completely wrong and just having the worst idea ever but I'm sure you are going to tell me if that's the case, however please be polite, I'm just in the same situation as you are and all I want is the game to improve, have a wonderful day :cap_like:

 

(why did a separated post get in here? I didn't wrote this as a reply, just as a new post. Any idea what just happend?)

 
Edited by XurMP

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1 hour ago, NoZoupForYou said:

First, I don't think CVs should be in ranked right now.  That's a recipe for disaster.  I lay out 5 tweaks I think can help CVs.

CV related - Less Concealment, Less AA

Squadron related - Even less DD spotting, Limited flight time, Cyclical attacks (to eliminate F key, DB, F Key, DB.)

These would go a long way in making it so CVs are vulnerable, which they need to be, while making it more comfortable for DDs.

 

Your suggestions don't actually solve the problem and would really just make it less fun for pilots. 

Less concealment and AA makes CVs better targets for planes. While that makes it easier on everyone else it would be frustrating for the pilots to be under constant attack.

Less DD spotting just means the good players work a bit harder and the bad ones die faster trying to run down DDs. The economy is why DDs are a good target and making them harder to spot doesn't change the problem. 

Limited flight time kind of makes sense but it just makes AA blobs better because now planes will be routed down one travel corridor instead of multiple angles. 

Cyclical attacks just makes a bad mechanic worse by forcing pilots into a predetermined plane selection instead of adjusting to the situation. That's like forcing DDs to fire 20 rounds before they can use torps again.

 

The problem is planes attacking ships and there will never be balance in that equation. Planes need to fight planes, capture points, and provide support drops for their team.  WG has to move away from anti ship attacks if they want to fix this problem.

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CV spotting to mini map only. Add consumable spotting plane that can be dropped from attack planes only to allow for spotting. 

Fix fighters- right now they are too reactionary. Defending teammates with them is almost pointless as you can still guarantee one strike against a ship even through fighters. They still despawn when an attack run is completed which also needs to stop.  Also, being that you can only drop fighters from squads in the air you, you almost never are where you need to be to actually put them to use. You cant reasonably be expected to fly across one side of the map to the other to drop fighters on a friendly. Maybe you could spawn the fighters from the map interface but limit the number of fighters a single CV could have up at a time to prevent total lockouts. The goal was to prevent CVs from shutting down other CVs so if you allow for too many fighters in the air at a time you run into that risk all over again. This also is why CVs have such good AA. One of the goals was to stop better CV captains from shutting down other CVs. If you remove CV AA you will see the better versed CV player murder the other CV and have total air control from start to finish.

DDs still have it a bit rough against certain types of attack planes. Maybe lower the chance to cause module breakage when a hit does not occur? Not sure without limiting the alpha of them what else you could do. By nature, DDs are hard to hit but dive bombers can make it pretty easy to get at least some shots in on a DD. Breaking modules on the first attack pass can make the following run considerably easier if you damage rudder/engine or flat out deny a DD the use of its torpedos. Makes it pretty un-fun for DDs when that happens. On the other hand you also have to concede that there are -STILL- DD players out there that do not adjust to having a CV in the match. Sailing around with AA on and 9km out from the nearest ship. Those are the DDs that get punished by CV players. And when you enter a cap knowing full well no one is near you to help cover AA and yours wont handle the load- you can practically guarantee a CV will be with you shortly.

 

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