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I have been re-watching Babylon 5 through Prime and there is one thing that bugs me. Susan Ivanova is constantly referred to as Lt Commander which is her rank but in normal military usage the Lt is usually dropped in day to day operations. The Lt is only used when the actual rank is important.

As much as I love the original Star Trek B5 is so much better on so many levels even though in many ways it shows its age far more than Star Trek TOS mostly because computer displays have advanced so much since 1994.

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I wanted to vent. :Smile_izmena: I don't know why but of all the mistakes in shows I have seen over the years that bugs me the most. It is right up there for buggingness with the stupid "Is this OK?" question when you use a card at checkout for bothering me.

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b5 was great one of those shows that i love to see them do something with today with the cgi we have now they realy dumd down the ships so they could render them. it is a grity syfi with a more human take of the future not so lofty hippy community like star trek but more down to earth with the problem that face all civilizations. and star-furys best starship design hell NASA asked if they could use it for a space tug .

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4 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

I have been re-watching Babylon 5 through Prime and there is one thing that bugs me. Susan Ivanova is constantly referred to as Lt Commander which is her rank but in normal military usage the Lt is usually dropped in day to day operations. The Lt is only used when the actual rank is important.

As much as I love the original Star Trek B5 is so much better on so many levels even though in many ways it shows its age far more than Star Trek TOS mostly because computer displays have advanced so much since 1994.

I assume it was to easily put her in a ranked structure for the viewers to understand.

She was Lt Cdr in season 1, I believe, but was then promoted in season 2. I'm guessing the makers of the show thought to call someone 'Cdr' for a season, then have her promoted to Cdr (proper), might confuse many viewers

Another explanation is, on a station with so many races with their own rank or cast structures, it made sense for the EA to use the proper 'full' rank as a matter of clarity and to reinforce using that rank in private as well as public.

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Binge watched the completed episodes last year. While the CGI hadn't aged well, the story and characters are still excellent. Ivanova is my fav character. 

The only "Space Opera" SF that beats her IMO was the new BSG.

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On 4/21/2019 at 11:33 PM, BrushWolf said:

I have been re-watching Babylon 5 through Prime and there is one thing that bugs me. Susan Ivanova is constantly referred to as Lt Commander which is her rank but in normal military usage the Lt is usually dropped in day to day operations. The Lt is only used when the actual rank is important.

As much as I love the original Star Trek B5 is so much better on so many levels even though in many ways it shows its age far more than Star Trek TOS mostly because computer displays have advanced so much since 1994.

 

On 4/22/2019 at 4:13 AM, _WaveRider_ said:

I assume it was to easily put her in a ranked structure for the viewers to understand.

She was Lt Cdr in season 1, I believe, but was then promoted in season 2. I'm guessing the makers of the show thought to call someone 'Cdr' for a season, then have her promoted to Cdr (proper), might confuse many viewers

Another explanation is, on a station with so many races with their own rank or cast structures, it made sense for the EA to use the proper 'full' rank as a matter of clarity and to reinforce using that rank in private as well as public.

Susan Ivanova was a Lt Cmdr in season 1 and Cmdr Jeffrey Sinclair was in charge of the station. So I think it was done to not confuse the audience. 

 

As an aside, think about all the flag officers who were passed over to put Sinclair in command as a mere Cmdr. They must have been pissed at the Minbari and Sinclair.

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1 hour ago, Kizarvexis said:

 

Susan Ivanova was a Lt Cmdr in season 1 and Cmdr Jeffrey Sinclair was in charge of the station. So I think it was done to not confuse the audience. 

 

As an aside, think about all the flag officers who were passed over to put Sinclair in command as a mere Cmdr. They must have been pissed at the Minbari and Sinclair.

I'm sure there was a story regarding an individual that tried to discredit Sinclair for the very reason that he believed the Station should have been his. Looked it up: Ari Ben Zayn https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Ari_Ben_Zayn

 

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On 4/21/2019 at 11:33 PM, BrushWolf said:

The Lt is only used when the actual rank is important.

If I'm not mistaken, when she was being called Lt. Commander, Sinclair was there, and he was a Commander. I always just figured they were specifying her as Lt. Commander to clarify context since they called Sinclair Commander. 

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55 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I'm sure there was a story regarding an individual that tried to discredit Sinclair for the very reason that he believed the Station should have been his. Looked it up: Ari Ben Zayn https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Ari_Ben_Zayn

 

Yeah, I'm sure he wasn't the only one. Wasn't he a Colonel in the GROPOs IIRC?

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10 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

Yeah, I'm sure he wasn't the only one. Wasn't he a Colonel in the GROPOs IIRC?

He was the doctor's dad.

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On 4/29/2019 at 10:21 AM, _WaveRider_ said:

He was the doctor's dad.

You are thinking Gen Franklin in the 1st 2nd season ep GROPOs. In the 1st season ep Eyes, I thought Ari Ben Zayn was a Colonel. 

Yep, I remembered right. Harriman Gray was the Psi-Corp military liaison.

wCx0NOE.jpg

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/016.html

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/credits/016.html

 

edit: Since he was a Colonel, that should put him as a part of the GROPOs.

Edited by Kizarvexis
GROPOs with Gen Franklin was season 2

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1 minute ago, Kizarvexis said:

You are thinking Gen Franklin in the 1st season ep GROPOs. In the 1st season ep Eyes, I thought Ari Ben Zayn was a Colonel. 

Yep, I remembered right. Harriman Gray was the Psi-Corp military liaison.

wCx0NOE.jpg

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/016.html

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/credits/016.html

Sorry, thought you were talking about Steven's dad who led the GROPOS.

Yes Ari was a Colonel in the Earth Force Marines; I think the GROPOS could include the Marines, but I think they referred to the normal soldiers on the battlefield (the Ground Pounders).

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28 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Sorry, thought you were talking about Steven's dad who led the GROPOS.

Yes Ari was a Colonel in the Earth Force Marines; I think the GROPOS could include the Marines, but I think they referred to the normal soldiers on the battlefield (the Ground Pounders).

The EA military was always a little weird. GROPOs IIRC, were the marines in B5.

 

Chief Garibaldi (Chief Warrant Officer I expect) was in the GROPOs during the war and ran security on multiple EA installations. But he was also a qualified Starfury and shuttle pilot and kept those qualifications current. Seems a little out of the purview of the head of security IMO.

 

Major Ryan ended up in command on EAS Clarkstown after General Hague was killed in action. You would think that one of the naval personnel would take charge, but he was in charge. Now they were a warship in exile, so that could have just been unusual circumstances.

 

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On 4/26/2019 at 12:54 PM, Erebthoron said:

Binge watched the completed episodes last year. While the CGI hadn't aged well, the story and characters are still excellent. Ivanova is my fav character. 

The only "Space Opera" SF that beats her IMO was the new BSG.

I enjoyed Babylon five in the day though plot holes in the new BSG kept me from enjoying it. Have you checked out The Expanse? My current favorite. Probably the most realistic space combat I've ever seen depicted. Here is a clip from Season 2 that got me hooked. Battles starts around 6 minutes in.
 

 

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11 minutes ago, DustRhino said:

I enjoyed Babylon five in the day though plot holes in the new BSG kept me from enjoying it. Have you checked out The Expanse? My current favorite. Probably the most realistic space combat I've ever seen depicted. Here is a clip from Season 2 that got me hooked. Battles starts around 6 minutes in.
 

 

Expanse was very good, different enough to keep me interested. Made it to the end of season 2 (when something went onto the planet surface (don't want to 'spoiler' it)). I think the third season was approved. I watched something called Dark Matter for a while, but it was more A-Team/Knight Rider/Airwolf/Street Hawk type adventure than the (little) more gritty Expanse.

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On 4/21/2019 at 11:33 PM, BrushWolf said:

I have been re-watching Babylon 5 through Prime and there is one thing that bugs me. Susan Ivanova is constantly referred to as Lt Commander which is her rank but in normal military usage the Lt is usually dropped in day to day operations. The Lt is only used when the actual rank is important.

As much as I love the original Star Trek B5 is so much better on so many levels even though in many ways it shows its age far more than Star Trek TOS mostly because computer displays have advanced so much since 1994.

:Smile_great:I Agree

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1 hour ago, DustRhino said:

I enjoyed Babylon five in the day though plot holes in the new BSG kept me from enjoying it. Have you checked out The Expanse? My current favorite. Probably the most realistic space combat I've ever seen depicted. Here is a clip from Season 2 that got me hooked. Battles starts around 6 minutes in.
 

 

I am awaiting the new season 4 if there is one  

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2 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Expanse was very good, different enough to keep me interested. Made it to the end of season 2 (when something went onto the planet surface (don't want to 'spoiler' it)). I think the third season was approved. I watched something called Dark Matter for a while, but it was more A-Team/Knight Rider/Airwolf/Street Hawk type adventure than the (little) more gritty Expanse.

The Expanse Season 3 is already on Amazon Prime streaming. I'm still watching Season 2.

I watched the first two seasons of Dark Matter. I did enjoy the mystery of the first season, but not as much the second season, and lost interest once I learned it was cancelled. I agree it was more action and less hard-core SciFi. That The Expanse is trying to be as realistic as possible prevents them falling into fatal plot holes as shows like BSG did.

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On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 11:33 PM, BrushWolf said:

I have been re-watching Babylon 5 through Prime and there is one thing that bugs me. Susan Ivanova is constantly referred to as Lt Commander which is her rank but in normal military usage the Lt is usually dropped in day to day operations. The Lt is only used when the actual rank is important.

Brush, while what you describe would be true in modern military terms, there's no guarantee that future military organizations would hold to the same tradition when it comes to dropping the Lt. in general usage.

 

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 8:07 AM, Kizarvexis said:

 

Susan Ivanova was a Lt Cmdr in season 1 and Cmdr Jeffrey Sinclair was in charge of the station. So I think it was done to not confuse the audience. 

As an aside, think about all the flag officers who were passed over to put Sinclair in command as a mere Cmdr. They must have been pissed at the Minbari and Sinclair.

That's a  fair point about nor wanting to confusing the audience.  That said, it always struck me as weird that the commanding officer of such a large and important station would be only a mere "Commander", rather than a Captain or higher rank.  Now, sure, it could all be part of that idea that the Minbari wanted Sinclair to have the job, and having him be "only" a mere Commander was part of the underlying story's feel as you sort of describe.  

Frankly, the B5 station really felt to me like its CO should have had flag rank.  After all, not only is its military component pretty damned significant, but the CO is also the governor of a significant colony of something like 250,000 people of all species. 

But I guess in the end, it really was all about how J. Michael Straczynski (the writer and creator of the series) wanted there to be an underlying tension over having the Minbari insist on a specific person (for their own mysterious reasons) who happened to be VERY under-ranked for such an important job.

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Brush, while what you describe would be true in modern military terms, there's no guarantee that future military organizations would hold to the same tradition when it comes to dropping the Lt. in general usage.

 

That's a  fair point about nor wanting to confusing the audience.  That said, it always struck me as weird that the commanding officer of such a large and important station would be only a mere "Commander", rather than a Captain or higher rank.  Now, sure, it could all be part of that idea that the Minbari wanted Sinclair to have the job, and having him be "only" a mere Commander was part of the underlying story's feel as you sort of describe.  

Frankly, the B5 station really felt to me like its CO should have had flag rank.  After all, not only is its military component pretty damned significant, but the CO is also the governor of a significant colony of something like 250,000 people of all species. 

But I guess in the end, it really was all about how J. Michael Straczynski (the writer and creator of the series) wanted there to be an underlying tension over having the Minbari insist on a specific person (for their own mysterious reasons) who happened to be VERY under-ranked for such an important job.

 

 

 

I think they would if they stayed with a 20th century style rank structure which Lt Commander is even though they do have an oddly mixed rank structure though with a major in Severed Dreams in season 3 commanding an Earth Force destroyer. It almost seems that rank is not a large factor in assignments.

Civilians that have not served or don't have at least a passing interest in history are confused with military style organizations no matter what you do.

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58 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Brush, while what you describe would be true in modern military terms, there's no guarantee that future military organizations would hold to the same tradition when it comes to dropping the Lt. in general usage.

 

That's a  fair point about nor wanting to confusing the audience.  That said, it always struck me as weird that the commanding officer of such a large and important station would be only a mere "Commander", rather than a Captain or higher rank.  Now, sure, it could all be part of that idea that the Minbari wanted Sinclair to have the job, and having him be "only" a mere Commander was part of the underlying story's feel as you sort of describe.  

The Minbari support for the Babylon Project (B1-B5 stations) was contingent on them having veto right on the commander of the station. The Minbari rejected every candidate until they agreed on Cmdr Sinclair. I think it was 250+ rejections IIRC. 

 

58 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Frankly, the B5 station really felt to me like its CO should have had flag rank.  After all, not only is its military component pretty damned significant, but the CO is also the governor of a significant colony of something like 250,000 people of all species. 

Yeah, after the Minbari passed over so many to get Cmdr Sinclair, I think Cpt John "Starkiller" Sheridan was a big F U to the Minbari, without risking any of the flag officers that supported Pres. Clark. Then President Sheridan got his own appointee when the seat of the ISA was on B5.

 

58 minutes ago, Crucis said:

But I guess in the end, it really was all about how J. Michael Straczynski (the writer and creator of the series) wanted there to be an underlying tension over having the Minbari insist on a specific person (for their own mysterious reasons) who happened to be VERY under-ranked for such an important job.

Yeah, it definitely ties into to Cmdr Jeffrey Sinclair's story arc, both the original and what jms did later for Michael O’Hare who played Cmdr Sinclair.

 

 

11 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

I think they would if they stayed with a 20th century style rank structure which Lt Commander is even though they do have an oddly mixed rank structure though with a major in Severed Dreams in season 3 commanding an Earth Force destroyer. It almost seems that rank is not a large factor in assignments.

Civilians that have not served or don't have at least a passing interest in history are confused with military style organizations no matter what you do.

Very true. Just look how on almost every news story, any armored vehicle with a turret is a tank. :Smile_facepalm:

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