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AlcatrazNC

CV and positioning : Why CV aren't as OP as people pretend

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14 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

Or we could just look at the damage and spotting stats to immediately confirm CVs are extremely OP.

 

Yes very much OP

shot-19.04.15_13.55.09-0581.jpg

 

inb4 the u suck argument with no explanation

 

Edited by AlcatrazNC

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9 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

Or we could just look at the damage and spotting stats to immediately confirm CVs are extremely OP.

Oh noes! CVs are averaging roughly the same amount of damage as same tier BBs. The horror! How dare capital ships match other capital ships in average damage capabilities!

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Im sorry OP, but you contradict yourself. First you say that CVs are not OP. But then you points that the only way that most ships have to stay safe is to join into blobs. So we have a single ship dictating how the enemy ships should play the game. When a single ship is so strong to dictate how the enemy team should play the battle, that ship is OP. No other ship in the game has so much power, to impact most (if not all) of the ships on the enemy team all around the map. This is a clear sign of unbalance.

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Had a bottom tier match in the Furious the other day,  spent a lot of time skimming outside of AA range and trying to find openings. The enemies CV's actually did a decent job of dissuading me and the Shokaku on our side from doing much.  The enemy teams CV's were alright...but of course in chat we got the whole 'GLAD TO SEE THAT THE SIDE THAT HAS THE BETTER CV'S STILL HAS AN OVERWHELMING ADVANTAGE."  If it had been the DD I had kept spotted and harassed until my allies dropped him,  I coulda seen that. Nope.  It was the KGV sitting the back that we had JUST started doing runs on,  since he was one of the only four ships left on their team.

People don't care what a CV is ACTUALLY capable of,  they care about what they IMAGINE it is capable of.  That's why people hate it,  they imagine that is some broken platform that over performs,  and that is why people expect so much of it,  they think CV's are capable of being everywhere at once.

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4 minutes ago, Xlap said:

Im sorry OP, but you contradict yourself. First you say that CVs are not OP. But then you points that the only way that most ships have to stay safe is to join into blobs. So we have a single ship dictating how the enemy ships should play the game. When a single ship is so strong to dictate how the enemy team should play the battle, that ship is OP. No other ship in the game has so much power, to impact most (if not all) of the ships on the enemy team all around the map. This is a clear sign of unbalance.

 

Look at the 4 target below A. it's not a blob but it's enough to make a CV not wanting to strike them. If I tried really hard yes maybe I would have been able to break them with my team but at the cost of all my planes shot down and doing nothing but wait for planes to be generated. You don't need a blob, you just need 2-3 ship together and if possible one with good AA.

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I am with OP on this one.

The "no-fly" groups can easily ward off CV attacks, and if the opposing flank is not presenting themselves as a threat, they can easily push into caps togethee and pick off targets one by one.

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23 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

positioning.png.6f306ca92213fdb38f9a09530f77aa6c.png

-Pink circle represent all target the ennemi CV can freely strike

-Red circle represent basically no fly zone

-Blue circle represent target I can safely strike.

People always blame CV for everything that happens in a game but they also forget something quite important: in a CV game, there's a CV who win and a CV who lose. And guess what ? The CV who wins, wins because the team has a better positioning. 

The red team is basically clustered around their AA ship, here Worcester and they basically move together while my team just go on their own around the map. Our Shima and Hindenburg are just free damage for everyone, Zao has poor AA to be allowed to sail alone like that and the Conqueror will not help him. Even if Conqueror AA is respectable, it's not enough to make the CV player think twice before attacking. As for our DD hugging the border, fortunately the CV was busy somewhere else but if he sent his planes there, he could have on free strike.

 

Edit : already a downvote with no reason, keeps proving my point thanks

Let me try....  What's really wrong with the red circle?  They reacted to carrier and gathered to survive.... Because, as you've said, they can't survive you alone.....   One ship, a carrier,  changed the entire game.  Because those five or six ships alone can't survive a single ship.......even, if that is their perception and not reality.  A lone carrier captain completely changed the game.....  Is that right?  Is that what we came to this game for?  No........8.0 and the carrier meta failed so bad, that WG had to immediately stop 8.0 and wing it:.....to keep Carrier players from outright quitting, since this was their OP/Meta 15 minutes; or, the other 90% of the population whom stopped spending, contacted WG directly and were actually quitting this game....  OP, those are assumptions of mine; but, ponder this:  if 8.0 was so wonderful, so completely arranged, balanced, challenging and most importantly, equally profitable, why did it take just a few days to completely remove it and the stinks it created.....  that fish meme thingy....... 

Balance = fun.  How is it balanced that one ship can change the entire game; and the rest of us, have no choice.....  Planes aren't ships and this sales gimmick is one of the worst business decisions I have ever seen made by a video game company..........it is even worse than EA's nightmare ideas and decisions....  I wish you well and hope you have fun; but, for many of us, the time to cut way back financially and time wise occurred 5 weeks ago at 8.0.........and for many others, they are gone for good....  There never can be "one ship to rule them all" or the game isn't a game anymore..... 

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37 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

Or we could just look at the damage and spotting stats to immediately confirm CVs are extremely OP.

From a risk vs reward perspective, there's absolutely 100% no doubt whatsoever on that account.

Edited by CommodoreKang

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Based off that minimap alone, it doesnt look like anyone is playing much differently than they normally would even without a CV.

I just question that Kita and Tash on A side. One of them at least could of easily slipped into A and capped it, even with that rooster there (his last known position has him heading back to mid anyway). If that Mass and Salem kept pushing, the DD would be fine in A.

But Im way off topic, minimap pictures throw me off. 

Edited by Octavian_of_Roma
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48 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

Or we could just look at the damage and spotting stats to immediately confirm CVs are extremely OP.

Honestly, when you think about it, since the CVs are basically playing against bot level adversaries, they should probably get COOP level experience.

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21 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Look at the 4 target below A. it's not a blob but it's enough to make a CV not wanting to strike them. If I tried really hard yes maybe I would have been able to break them with my team but at the cost of all my planes shot down and doing nothing but wait for planes to be generated. You don't need a blob, you just need 2-3 ship together and if possible one with good AA.

Small groups or large groups, the CV is still dictating how the enemy should play and limiting your options, this is a sign of unbalance. 

 

Now, the problem with small groups, they are nice on paper, but not that simple in practice. We cant control the ships that spawn close to us, the tier or the build their are using, or even how they are going to play. If we have 2-3 ships with strong AA, top tier, AA build and playing well, this is enough to get a no fly zone. But if we get ships with poor AA, botton tier, no AA builds or even if one fo them misplayt something, 2-3 ships might not be enough to stop a attack. Even if you have enough AA at the start of the game, when the shells start flying around we lose AA, maybe even a ship, so that group AA is not that impressive anymore. The problem with small groups is that we have too many variables that we cant control, which makes small groups unrealiable.

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13 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Let me try....  What's really wrong with the red circle?  They reacted to carrier and gathered to survive...

 

There's nothing wrong here. That's the good decision to do.

13 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Balance = fun.  How is it balanced that one ship can change the entire game; and the rest of us, have no choice.....  Planes aren't ships and this sales gimmick is one of the worst business decisions I have ever seen made by a video game company..........it is even worse than EA's nightmare ideas and decisions....  I wish you well and hope you have fun; but, for many of us, the time to cut way back financially and time wise occurred 5 weeks ago at 8.0.........and for many others, they are gone for good....  There never can be "one ship to rule them all" or the game isn't a game anymore..... 

 

Well I'm having fun with CV and even if it needs some tweak here and there, especially regarding fighter consummable doing nothing but fly around and not shooting planes, I find CV right now more balanced than it was during RTS. If WG wants to remove CV, fine but refund all the XP and doubloon spent and give me Yoshino already. I've been playing surface ship for 3-4 years, while I still enjoy it CV has been a fresh and new experience. 

 

But WG's action confirmed that CV are here to stay so people might as well play smart instead of just screaming and downvoting other for no reasons.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Palladia said:


People don't care what a CV is ACTUALLY capable of,  they care about what they IMAGINE it is capable of.  That's why people hate it,  they imagine that is some broken platform that over performs,  and that is why people expect so much of it,  they think CV's are capable of being everywhere at once.

That is not why people hate it. The forum is full of posts with intelligent and experienced players explaining why CVs suck for gameplay. Perhaps you could take a moment, read them, and understand why you are arguing against a position no one holds.

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2 minutes ago, Xlap said:

Small groups or large groups, the CV is still dictating how the enemy should play and limiting your options, this is a sign of unbalance. 

 

Now, the problem with small groups, they are nice on paper, but not that simple in practice. We cant control the ships that spawn close to us, the tier or the build their are using, or even how they are going to play. If we have 2-3 ships with strong AA, top tier, AA build and playing well, this is enough to get a no fly zone. But if we get ships with poor AA, botton tier, no AA builds or even if one fo them misplayt something, 2-3 ships might not be enough to stop a attack. Even if you have enough AA at the start of the game, when the shells start flying around we lose AA, maybe even a ship, so that group AA is not that impressive anymore. The problem with small groups is that we have too many variables that we cant control, which makes small groups unrealiable.

 

This is more a MM issue than a CV issue. While I agree for spawn, MM doesn't care about how many radar ship are in queue and you ends up with a team filled with 6 radar ship vs a team with 1 radar ship. IMO this is because of WG inability to balance MM that we had the non soviet radar nerf.

 

 This is the same with AA and CV now. There are games with heavy AA team vs low AA team. Should WG put AA threat as a thing that the algorithm should take into account, you would already have more balanced team. The similar issue would be in those heavy BB game with only 1 cruiser and 1 DD. If the MM puts only 1 DD in a team and no DD in the other team, it almost have the same power as the CV.

 

In practice it will be hard to implement but if player are smart enough it's not impossible. I've played in div with a friendly DM / Minotaure both of use could sail freely on the map. But even a bunch of random sailing together is enough to create a good mobile force.

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nation class tier prem name players total battles average of rates
battles win draw lose exp damage
caused
warship
destroyed
aircraft
destoryed
base
capture
base
defense
survived kill /
death
agro
damage
spot
damage
hit
ratio
JP CV 10   Hakuryu 2595 67075 25.85 49.62 0.03 50.35 1969 86490 0.95 5.79 0.59 9.54 73.47 3.58 317474 60339 0.00                                          
US CV 10   Midway 3979 127433 32.03 50.07 0.02 49.91 1963 82083 0.96 6.74 0.62 12.27 73.44 3.61 339235 61032 0.00                                          
JP BB 10   Yamato 15683 380140 24.24 49.86 0.02 50.12 1877 90280 0.87 2.81 3.09 4.22 38.14 1.41 1484523 19895 28.92                                          
US BB 10   Montana 17726 449211 25.34 49.26 0.02 50.72 1690 77459 0.81 3.40 3.07 4.01 37.25 1.29 1513734 20684 27.06                                          
JP DD 10   Harugumo 7794 161569 20.73 51.13 0.01 48.86 1668 58000 0.86 1.48 24.42 6.76 28.35 1.20 589171 24109 38.03                                          
US DD 10   Gearing 13184 304435 23.09 48.58 0.02 51.41 1470 39448 0.62 1.27 29.03 5.33 27.49 0.86 481575 28617 39.44                                          

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2 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:
nation class tier prem name players total battles average of rates
battles win draw lose exp damage
caused
warship
destroyed
aircraft
destoryed
base
capture
base
defense
survived kill /
death
agro
damage
spot
damage
hit
ratio
JP CV 10   Hakuryu 2595 67075 25.85 49.62 0.03 50.35 1969 86490 0.95 5.79 0.59 9.54 73.47 3.58 317474 60339 0.00                                          
US CV 10   Midway 3979 127433 32.03 50.07 0.02 49.91 1963 82083 0.96 6.74 0.62 12.27 73.44 3.61 339235 61032 0.00                                          
JP BB 10   Yamato 15683 380140 24.24 49.86 0.02 50.12 1877 90280 0.87 2.81 3.09 4.22 38.14 1.41 1484523 19895 28.92                                          
US BB 10   Montana 17726 449211 25.34 49.26 0.02 50.72 1690 77459 0.81 3.40 3.07 4.01 37.25 1.29 1513734 20684 27.06                                          
JP DD 10   Harugumo 7794 161569 20.73 51.13 0.01 48.86 1668 58000 0.86 1.48 24.42 6.76 28.35 1.20 589171 24109 38.03                                          
US DD 10   Gearing 13184 304435 23.09 48.58 0.02 51.41 1470 39448 0.62 1.27 29.03 5.33 27.49 0.86 481575 28617 39.44                                          

The damage is one thing but the survival rate and KDR are the things that really show what a different kind of game they are playing.  Base capture vs base defense is also telling a story.

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I just got into t8 with the UK cv line. I have to say this. CV's at 4 are weak, at 6 are fun but nowhere near as powerful as say a good bb or cruiser thanks to being matched with t8 ships 66% of the time, and then you have T8. So when top tier I can farm 140k and get a few kills. When bottom tier I struggle to get 10% of that damage. Im struggling to think of a single class that has that much tier variance. Hell even when im in an Atago and up tier I can still easily top the charts, in a cv less so. The consistency for CV seems a bit lacking below t10 at t10 however it's kinda an unrealistic reversal. Thanks to the JJ Rowling style of balancing WG does. Pure fantasy over facts.

Im not sure what can be done about this without completely destroying t10, maybe some sort of handicap for up tier, or if the fact that CV's will be the flavour of the month till subs hit the game and make Torpdeo vigilance a requirement might be the real issue is hard to say. However as long as everyone is pounding on the cv bandwagon to get to 10's its gonna be a rough ride for both cv and non cv players.

So while I think most of the calls to Nerfs to aa are kinda [edited] I will say that CV players below 10 have some measure of room for complaint.

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1 hour ago, Palladia said:

People don't care what a CV is ACTUALLY capable of,

Um, I think we care. In fact, I think we care so much that patch 0.8.0.1 was when the CV had a total improvisational  in game role/job redesigned compared to  patch 0.8.0.

With the above move intact, not only CVs were nerfed, but EVERY ship who use torps/flooding for DMG.

This fictional/improvised CV role is what we enjoy today, is the product as to what they're capable of.

Trust me, nerfing/degrading/downgrading torp using ships (along with the CV) to appease the gun ships. Trust me we care... The side affects of this action is clear, and its not good nor pretty.

A big blow to game play diversity

Edited by Navalpride33
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Quote

Edit : already a downvote with no reason, keeps proving my point thanks

No, down votes without comments do not prove your point. One screen shot does not prove the point you are trying to make.

Quote

People always blame CV for everything that happens in a game

That is an extreme exaggeration. People are angry over the rework and over emphasize, the same as you did with the comment I quoted.

 

Quote

The CV who wins, wins because the team has a better positioning.

This can be said about any class of ship. Not just CV's only as it appears you are trying to imply.

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2 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Pink circle represent all target the ennemi CV can freely strike

-Red circle represent basically no fly zone

-Blue circle represent target I can safely strike.

Little gray circle shows the area he will be hiding in, avoiding contact with any of those other circles.

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1 hour ago, kgh52 said:

No, down votes without comments do not prove your point. One screen shot does not prove the point you are trying to make.

And giving no reason for why one disagree doesn't prove I'm wrong either.

1 hour ago, kgh52 said:

That is an extreme exaggeration. People are angry over the rework and over emphasize, the same as you did with the comment I quoted.

No. Before the rework people blamed CV for everything that happens, hell some people even TK CV because of their rage.

After the rework people still blame CV for everything that happens in the game, except now they throw more insult than before.

The rework is just the scapegoat for all the mistakes and failure people made.

1 hour ago, kgh52 said:

This can be said about any class of ship. Not just CV's only as it appears you are trying to imply.

 

Then why is it wrong for a CV to kill a target who hug the edge of the map alone ? 

Why is it wrong for a DD to be punished if he's rushing a cap alone in a CV game?

 

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The CV itself is not OP or bad.

The player makes the difference. 

Team position just means no CV strikes, but doesn't prevent spotting by carrier.

A team that provides mutual support can be picked apart by surface ships and provide the needed space a carrier player needs.

Patience is key.

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