Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Gear_Jamer

AA defence

30 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

5
[NGA-B]
[NGA-B]
Members
125 posts
6,064 battles

I am going to ask this again now that it is 2019 and wargaming as changed the CV game play what ships has the best  AA defence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
388
[INR]
Members
1,225 posts
4,060 battles

Much of the same. USN and RN CLs still top the AA charts.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,361
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
25,373 posts
13,893 battles

The best AA defense is to sail with at least one other ship except for a few of the AA monsters who can sail alone in hopes that CV's attack them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
868
[A-D]
Beta Testers, Alpha Tester
2,638 posts
1 hour ago, Gear_Jamer said:

I am going to ask this again now that it is 2019 and wargaming as changed the CV game play what ships has the best  AA defence

 

1 hour ago, WuYixiang said:

Much of the same. USN and RN CLs still top the AA charts.

Just to elaborate:

1. Wooster (DFAA active)

2. Des Moines (DFAA active)

3. Minotaur

4. Wooster (DFAA inactive)

5. Des Moines (DFAA inactive)

Also if you're playing T8, the ships that top the charts for plane kills are the Kidd and Massachusetts. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,646
[WOLF3]
Members
25,289 posts
22,304 battles

The universal answer is sailing with friends.  A lone ship is more vulnerable to air attack.  Even a AA Spec USN BB that is out alone, eats a bunch of focus attacks will lose AA mounts, and the CVs will then be able to attack it more easily.

 

A great example of supporting air defense with other ships is this recent clip where a Cleveland escorts a Musashi from the focused attacks of TWO Carriers.  Musashi isn't exactly known for AA prowess, yet the Cleveland heavily mitigates what the TWO Carriers wanted to do.

If Cleveland wasn't there, close enough to cover Musashi, the BB would have been dead meat.  Since the Cleveland was there and saved Musashi, the BB went on to top the XP charts.

 

Good AA ships?  In broad terms, these are the generally good ones that one should not be surprised if they took some extent in AA Builds:

Tier VIII+ USN Cruisers - Prior tiers of USN Cruisers may have decent AA DPS but range is an issue.  When you hit Cleveland and Baltimore-classes, the AA gets stronger.  IX Seattle, X Worcester, and the IX-X RN CLs have the best AA ranges possible thanks to the DP (Dual Purpose) 152mm guns.  Outside the IX-X CL DP 152mm guns, it's the 127mm DP guns that are the heart of USN Cruiser AA performance.  It's no coincidence that the AA really ramps up when you leave Helena to go into Cleveland, because Cleveland has more of those 127mm DP guns.  Des Moines-class has great performance from the 127mmm DP guns but the 76mm guns for Medium AA is very, very nasty.

Tier VIII+ RN CLs - Edinburgh steps up her AA compared to Fiji but Neptune and Minotaur with their DP 152mm guns reach the furthest and can be monstrous.

Tier VIII+ USN BBs - First and foremost, you see numerous USN BB players adopt AA Builds for 2 reasons:  1)  Their Secondaries in general are garbage and 2)  They can't slot ASM1 in Slot 3 to improve main battery accuracy.  That is why they take AA Builds.  And this being NA server with fans of USN ships going DAKKA with AA guns, yes, USN BBs tend to like their AA guns.  VII Colorado failed to make this cut because it is too reliant in medium and short AA.  Baby T-Rex arms for AA range is her problem.  Pre-Rework she was an excellent BB for personal defense from air attacks, but the Rework gutted her AA.  Same with V Texas.

 

The ones below potentially could be good AA boats but it's typically never realized due to general build tendencies.

Tier IX-X French Cruisers - They actually have great AA suites but it's typically never realized as AA Builds aren't typical on these ships compared to some other Cruisers out there.  Charles Martel is CV Bait, seeing some very dangerous Tier VIII & X CVs and having garbage AA.

Tier VIII+ German Cruisers - Good AA, not USN great, but with some dedication they're no slouches.

Tier VII+ French BBs - These crank up the AA performance starting in Tier VII Lyon.  However, these BBs don't tend to take AA Builds as their upgrades are either Main or Secondary Build focused.  Premium IX Jean Bart for example can be a ferocious AA platform but builds don't focus on that.

Tier VIII+ RN BBs - In the tech tree, Monarch starts where RN BBs get good AA suites.  But as with many entrants in this part of the list, it's typically never realized as builds focus on Main Battery - Survival - Stealth.  The greatest example is Conqueror.  People said her AA made Montana obsolete, but if Conqueror players took AA modules the gun accuracy will go to sh*t.  That's what people failed to tell you.  So you take ASM1 and focus on Survival & Stealth, SI to get more Repair Party charges, etc.  AA isn't even a real consideration.

 

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58
[USFF]
Members
36 posts
4,989 battles

Why play as a DD if you need to sail with a friend? Two DDs will not stop CV attacks. I’ll be called a camper if I stay near the fleet and do nothing most of the match. You’re AA defense solution only works with BBs and CCs. The game play for DDs have become very hard with CVs and Radar. I have no problem with radar. If you know what you’re doing you can play around it. But CVs once they find you they will attack you until your dead. CVs have unlimited attack range and unlimited planes. Smoke does very little because most of the time CVs will wait you out. Running back to the fleet does very little because DDs will still lose a lot of HP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,551
[PVE]
Members
19,836 posts
12,005 battles
35 minutes ago, CH44D_1 said:

Why play as a DD if you need to sail with a friend? Two DDs will not stop CV attacks. I’ll be called a camper if I stay near the fleet and do nothing most of the match. You’re AA defense solution only works with BBs and CCs. The game play for DDs have become very hard with CVs and Radar. I have no problem with radar. If you know what you’re doing you can play around it. But CVs once they find you they will attack you until your dead. CVs have unlimited attack range and unlimited planes. Smoke does very little because most of the time CVs will wait you out. Running back to the fleet does very little because DDs will still lose a lot of HP.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5
[FLKRS]
Members
31 posts
9,992 battles

AA doesn't matter. Just played a game (1 cv per team)… My team shot down 143 planes. They just kept coming and coming.

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
388
[INR]
Members
1,225 posts
4,060 battles
34 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

AA doesn't matter. Just played a game (1 cv per team)… My team shot down 143 planes. They just kept coming and coming.

 

AA does matter. If you shot down 143 planes, each strike squadron is limited to a fraction of their capabilities.

  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,646
[WOLF3]
Members
25,289 posts
22,304 battles
3 minutes ago, WuYixiang said:

AA does matter. If you shot down 143 planes, each strike squadron is limited to a fraction of their capabilities.

A CV that lost 143 planes.  His Ammo Cost must have been astronomical.  I've lost around 80 something on Midway before and it cost me 121k or 123k credits.  That's not even counting the Servicing costs.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5
[FLKRS]
Members
31 posts
9,992 battles
8 minutes ago, WuYixiang said:

AA does matter. If you shot down 143 planes, each strike squadron is limited to a fraction of their capabilities.

I will give you that. We did limit their capabilities and still lost because the power of spotting and being spotted the entire game. Just says how OP CVs are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
671 posts
2,542 battles
50 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

AA doesn't matter. Just played a game (1 cv per team)… My team shot down 143 planes. They just kept coming and coming.

 

Replay please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5
[FLKRS]
Members
31 posts
9,992 battles
1 minute ago, ALROCHA said:

Replay please?

Here is screenshot of final stats... sorry it was 'only' 142 planes. not 143. (hopefully I did this right.) You still want the replay?

Planes.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
671 posts
2,542 battles
7 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

Here is screenshot of final stats... sorry it was 'only' 142 planes. not 143. (hopefully I did this right.) You still want the replay?

Planes.JPG

Yes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,257 posts
7,142 battles
32 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

Here is screenshot of final stats... sorry it was 'only' 142 planes. not 143. (hopefully I did this right.) You still want the replay?

Planes.JPG

Pre-rework Enterprise used to have a ton of planes compared to its peers. I would imagine the new Enterprise has a similar gimmick. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,344 posts
3,206 battles
46 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

I will give you that. We did limit their capabilities and still lost because the power of spotting and being spotted the entire game. Just says how OP CVs are.

Did your team not also have a CV that was spotting for you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5
[FLKRS]
Members
31 posts
9,992 battles
2 minutes ago, Frenotx said:

Did your team not also have a CV that was spotting for you?

No - Our CV went after 3 ships the entire game and kept his fighter over his own ship. (Which I see a lot ).  You can watch the replay, our CV did not shot down 1 plane until he was last one left. Our CV lost 102 planes to just 3 of their ships. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,344 posts
3,206 battles
2 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

No - Our CV went after 3 ships the entire game and kept his fighter over his own ship. (Which I see a lot ).  You can watch the replay, our CV did not shot down 1 plane until he was last one left. Our CV lost 102 planes to just 3 of their ships. 

The fighter you see over CV's isn't being kept there by choice- it's an automatic consumable that is triggered by the CV being spotted. It's functionally similar to catapult planes. The only fighters CVs can actually deploy are the ones that their squad can drop (a limited number of times) at their current position.

If the enemy team had a DD that was spotting for them and your DD was not / playing poorly, you'd have had basically the same outcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5
[FLKRS]
Members
31 posts
9,992 battles
1 minute ago, Frenotx said:

The fighter you see over CV's isn't being kept there by choice- it's an automatic consumable that is triggered by the CV being spotted. It's functionally similar to catapult planes. The only fighters CVs can actually deploy are the ones that their squad can drop (a limited number of times) at their current position.

If the enemy team had a DD that was spotting for them and your DD was not / playing poorly, you'd have had basically the same outcome.

Gotcha on the fighter over CV. Thanks. 

DDs do not have same spotting abilities as CVs - Not even close. Planes cover the entire map much quicker and (as far as I can see) are unlimited. The difference between a bad DD player vs 1 good one does not impact the game as much as 2 very different CV players. 

How do you feel about 254 planes being taken down in a single game? Sound like too much? Just enough? Not enough? Should a CV player be able to just trash plane after plane knowing there's a stock pile of planes left to trash? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,344 posts
3,206 battles
6 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

Gotcha on the fighter over CV. Thanks. 

DDs do not have same spotting abilities as CVs - Not even close. Planes cover the entire map much quicker and (as far as I can see) are unlimited. The difference between a bad DD player vs 1 good one does not impact the game as much as 2 very different CV players. 

How do you feel about 254 planes being taken down in a single game? Sound like too much? Just enough? Not enough? Should a CV player be able to just trash plane after plane knowing there's a stock pile of planes left to trash? 

I suggest you give CVs a try, or at least try to thoroughly educate yourself on how they work, and the realities of how they play. That whole "unlimited planes" thing will start to look a whole lot more different, and you'll better understand the impact of hemorrhaging planes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
671 posts
2,542 battles
53 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

Here is screenshot of final stats... sorry it was 'only' 142 planes. not 143. (hopefully I did this right.) You still want the replay?

Planes.JPG

So, Enterprise main feature pre-rework was her bigger reserves, being around 33% bigger than the normal T8 reserves, this translates to faster restoration time for the rework.

 

If you check LittleWhiteMouse's reviews of the premium CVs you'll see that she has the biggest "maximum available planes".

Another thing to take notice is that Enterprise's fighter consumable calls down a gigantic amount of fighter planes, those doesn't damage enemy ships and die quickly to any AA, if I'm not wrong it's around 10~12 fighters and Enterprise can call it down up to 9 times on her planes alone.

This is also a T10 match, so the CVs planes need to face T10 AA and have to take more risks.

 

All in all, Enterprise have around 20 or so more planes than Shokaku and Lexington, so if you were fighting another T8 CV, the results would be the same (if you remove the fighter kills).

Remember that pre-rework CVs had around 25% less amount of planes but at the same time they could strike more, it just feels like CV after the rework have more planes because CVs can only fly groups of 12 at maximum, where before the rework you'd see 30+ planes on your screen, meaning that you could "kill more planes".

If you want to compare, enterprise before the rework had space for 96 planes and right now it has...I'd say, 125 planes over the course of the match.
Shokaku had 72 and right now it has around 100....but again, remember that before the rework, Shokaku could have 20+ planes flying all the time while after rework shokaku can only fly 9 at maximum.

Anothe thing to notice is that the plane's reserve before the rework was always "maximum", so if a squad died it would automatically prepare another full squad, after the rework the reserves are lower, meaning that if a squad is completely wiped out, the enemy will have to wait replenishment or launch a weaker squad.

Just as an example, if you manage to wipe out the last 10 torpedo planes from Shokaku, it'll have to wait 2 minutes and 57 seconds (with all the restoration modules) to launch 2 planes for the minimum attack or 14 minutes and 44 seconds to launch another 10 planes. And it's because of those high numbers that you often see CVs dumping squads right after the takeoff, to minimize damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,551
[PVE]
Members
19,836 posts
12,005 battles
23 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

Pre-rework Enterprise used to have a ton of planes compared to its peers. I would imagine the new Enterprise has a similar gimmick. 

2 minutes ago, Nagro15 said:

Gotcha on the fighter over CV. Thanks. 

DDs do not have same spotting abilities as CVs - Not even close. Planes cover the entire map much quicker and (as far as I can see) are unlimited. The difference between a bad DD player vs 1 good one does not impact the game as much as 2 very different CV players. 

How do you feel about 254 planes being taken down in a single game? Sound like too much? Just enough? Not enough? Should a CV player be able to just trash plane after plane knowing there's a stock pile of planes left to trash? 

 

To get this number of planes on deck you have to give up the CE module in slot 5.

The Enterprise can have 20 ABs, 16 TBs, and 16 DBs on deck at once, but can only fly one sqdn at once.

 

Out of the 20 Attack planes, you fly 12 in a squadron. So you need to have 4 survive to fill up the next squadron. Each AB takes 47s to spawn, so if you lose your whole first squadron, you will have to wait 3 min 8 seconds to get a full squadron again.

 

Out of the 16 torpedo bombers, you fly 9 in a squadron and need at least 2 to survive. Each TB takes 57s to spawn, so if you lose the first 9, you have to wait almost 2 min (1:54) for a full squadron again.

 

Out of the 16 dive bombers, you fly 9 in a squadron and need at least 2 to survive. Each DB takes 72s to spawn, so if you lose the first 9, you have to wait almost 2.5 minutes (2:24) for a full squadron again.

 

Enterprise is one of the faster spawning CVs. Implacable is a lot worse.

 

The Implacable can have 11 ABs, 14 TBs, and 11 DBs on deck at once, but can only fly one sqdn at once.

 

Out of the 11 Attack planes, you fly 6 in a squadron. So you need to have 1 survive to fill up the next squadron. Each AB takes 94s to spawn, so if you lose your whole first squadron, you will have to wait 1 min 34 seconds to get a full squadron again.

 

Out of the 14 torpedo bombers, you fly 8 in a squadron and need at least 2 to survive. Each TB takes 93s to spawn, so if you lose the first 8, you have to wait just over 3 min (3:06) for a full squadron again.

 

Out of the 11 dive bombers, you fly 6 in a squadron and need at least 1 to survive. Each DB takes 111s to spawn, so if you lose the first 6, you have to wait almost 2 minutes (1:51) for a full squadron again.

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,551
[PVE]
Members
19,836 posts
12,005 battles
9 minutes ago, ALROCHA said:


Another thing to take notice is that Enterprise's fighter consumable calls down a gigantic amount of fighter planes, those doesn't damage enemy ships and die quickly to any AA, if I'm not wrong it's around 10~12 fighters and Enterprise can call it down up to 9 times on her planes alone.
 

The CV CAP fighters are 4, just like all the other CVs.

The squadrons call up 10 5 fighters each time the fighter consumable is used and the reload is 10 sec. Each squadron gets 3 fighter consumables for the total of 9 you mentioned.

 

Edit: Brain fart, wasn't looking at Enterprise. I didn't click hard enough. Everyone else is 5 fighters.

Edited by Kizarvexis
Note this is Enterprise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×