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LupusMalum

The Hakuryu needs a consistent DOT attack, in order to compete with the Midway

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The Hakuryu needs to a consistent DOT attack, the torpedos which serve as the HAK's  Alpha attack is very mediocre at best.  The 4 torp Attack planes are slow and very easy to evade. The 2  torp Attack Planes have low alpha and an abysmal flood chance.  The AP Dive bombers are again very inconsistent. You are more likely to over pen or pen without citdaling which again has a low alpha. The Rockets planes have a decent chance to set a fire, but have low alpha and low survivability. The Hak cannot reliably defend itself against DDs much less attack because of the torps again are easily evades, the rockets planes are useless also due to past nerfs. The AP planes are also useless vs DDs because of the horrible aiming reticule and the increase chance of over pens.  The Midway HE Dive bombers have a greater consistent Alpha than any of the Haks Aircrafts. The consistent DOT fire is the icing on the cake. The Midway has a greater flood chance due to more torps in the water. The midways rocket planes hit harder and have a greater fire chance.

What I propose is that the Hak is given the ability to have a 3 Torp plane attack with a decent aim time ( Increase flood chance would be great). The AP dive bombers are increased to 4 (5 would be great) planes in an attack run. The rocket planes need a lot of help but increase the planes that make an attack run would be a good start.  I have attached 2 screenshots from a previous game and also a replay, that will aid in my discussion. I am not a good CV player by any measure but I had a decent damage output in this game. in the beginning, I tried to keep the team out of the cap while the AA bubbles thinned out. Which is why my damage output was slow to start. I appreciate the feedback.  compete

shot-19.04.13_22.16.11-0936.jpg

cen Hak.jpg

20190413_215952_PJSA110-Hakuryu_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

Edited by LupusMalum
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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Hakuryu looks to be doing alright from the stats I pulled 8 hours ago.

O6k2c2K.jpg

What is the time period covered by those stats?

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Hakuryu looks to be doing alright from the stats I pulled 8 hours ago.

O6k2c2K.jpg

My point is that the Hak, has difficulty killing an enemy, not getting damage. By the time you are able to whittle the enemy down, the game is usually settled. The HE dive bombers of the Midway, are able to have a decent Alpha and a good DOT attack. The HAK has no such ability due to the recent torpedo nerf. 

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Since the last update I can't make Haku work as before. I don't know it became more frustrating to play than any other ship. My planes seems to be dying faster than before against 2 ship, my DB are more unreliable as before (bonus point when planes take heavy damage and your aiming cursor drift toward the left / right) .

 

It's frustrating since CV is like fresh air for me.

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14 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Hakuryu looks to be doing alright from the stats I pulled 8 hours ago.

O6k2c2K.jpg

The problem with this data which comes from WoWS Stats is it includes the period when the Hak was extremely over performing. I would like to see the current stats since the Hak was nerfed.

Just giving the Hak's DB's a fire chance would help a lot but realistically fire needs a rework so it isn't a weapon but a side effect of taking damage from any weapon. What kills the Hak or any IJN CV's DB's against DD's is the automatic over penetration. Just giving all AP standard damage when it hits the citadel area on DD's would be a good move.

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37 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

What is the time period covered by those stats?

The Midway and Hakuryu stats with the dates beside the name are the Pre-CV Rework Stats.

The rest are CV Rework stats.

 

I already know what you're going to say, i.e. the state of Hakuryu at launch of the CV Rework and how she got nerfed, i.e. the torpedo bombers.  Midway TBs also got nerfed not long after.

 

Hakuryu: "Significant changes have affected the alternative plane torpedo module for Hakuryu. The attack run preparation is now longer, and more difficult - the parameters of the aiming were changed and the angles of the torpedo spread were increased even when aiming is at its most accurate. In addition, the speed of aircraft when returning to the aircraft carrier is reduced and the delay before the start of a new attack is increased. We have significantly changed the characteristics of torpedoes: reduced speed, increased detection radius and arming time."

 

Midway: "Due to the excessive efficiency on account to the large number of torpedoes in the attack flight, the attacking potential of Midway's torpedo bombers is reduced: their torpedoes have been replaced with weaker ones (the maximum damage is now 4,233 instead of 5,367) and the chance of flooding is reduced. Other parameters remain unchanged."

 

Tier X Midway is using Tier IV Langley Torps now.

 

Both Midway and Hakuryu have about equal time in their post-nerf states as each other.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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39 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

What is the time period covered by those stats?

 

2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The Midway and Hakuryu stats with the dates beside the name are the Pre-CV Rework Stats.

The rest are CV Rework stats.

 

I already know what you're going to say, i.e. the state of Hakuryu at launch of the CV Rework and how she got nerfed, i.e. the torpedo bombers.  Midway TBs also got nerfed not long after.

 

Hakuryu: "Significant changes have affected the alternative plane torpedo module for Hakuryu. The attack run preparation is now longer, and more difficult - the parameters of the aiming were changed and the angles of the torpedo spread were increased even when aiming is at its most accurate. In addition, the speed of aircraft when returning to the aircraft carrier is reduced and the delay before the start of a new attack is increased. We have significantly changed the characteristics of torpedoes: reduced speed, increased detection radius and arming time."

 

Midway: "Due to the excessive efficiency on account to the large number of torpedoes in the attack flight, the attacking potential of Midway's torpedo bombers is reduced: their torpedoes have been replaced with weaker ones (the maximum damage is now 4,233 instead of 5,367) and the chance of flooding is reduced. Other parameters remain unchanged."

 

Tier X Midway is using Tier IV Langley Torps now.

 

Both Midway and Hakuryu have about equal time in their post-nerf states as each other.

The problem is the Hak was over performing in 8.0 and the changes since then have drastically impacted its performance and they hit the Hak far harder than they hit the Midway.

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9 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

 

The problem is the Hak was over performing in 8.0 and the changes since then have drastically impacted its performance and they hit the Hak far harder than they hit the Midway.

That doesn't matter.  This is why.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Changelogs_for_World_of_Warships

CV Rework, update 0.8.0 went Live 30 January 2019.

The Hakuryu nerf hit with patch 0.8.0.1 which went Live 7 February 2019.

Midway's nerf hit 23 February 2019 with 0.8.0.3.

 

Both ships' stats have about as much time with their nerfed states as the other.  If anything, Hakuryu's stats reflect her true state a bit more because her extremely strong CV Rework Launch configuration were not in the game long before the nerf hit.  Just about a week.  So, even if we go with Midway's stats being a bit more inflated because her big nerf didn't happen until 2 weeks after Hakuryu got nerfed, Hakuryu's "nerfed" stats are still better than Midway's.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

That doesn't matter.  This is why.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Changelogs_for_World_of_Warships

CV Rework, update 0.8.0 went Live 30 January 2019.

The Hakuryu nerf hit with patch 0.8.0.1 which went Live 7 February 2019.

Midway's nerf hit 23 February 2019 with 0.8.0.3.

 

Both ships' stats have about as much time with their nerfed states as the other.

the enlightened HE bomb drop was more consistent than AP bombs

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2 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

the enlightened HE bomb drop was more consistent than AP bombs

And despite that, Midway was still doing worse than the reduced Hakuryu.

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20 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The Midway and Hakuryu stats with the dates beside the name are the Pre-CV Rework Stats.

The rest are CV Rework stats.

 

I already know what you're going to say, i.e. the state of Hakuryu at launch of the CV Rework and how she got nerfed, i.e. the torpedo bombers.  Midway TBs also got nerfed not long after.

 

Hakuryu: "Significant changes have affected the alternative plane torpedo module for Hakuryu. The attack run preparation is now longer, and more difficult - the parameters of the aiming were changed and the angles of the torpedo spread were increased even when aiming is at its most accurate. In addition, the speed of aircraft when returning to the aircraft carrier is reduced and the delay before the start of a new attack is increased. We have significantly changed the characteristics of torpedoes: reduced speed, increased detection radius and arming time."

 

Midway: "Due to the excessive efficiency on account to the large number of torpedoes in the attack flight, the attacking potential of Midway's torpedo bombers is reduced: their torpedoes have been replaced with weaker ones (the maximum damage is now 4,233 instead of 5,367) and the chance of flooding is reduced. Other parameters remain unchanged."

 

Tier X Midway is using Tier IV Langley Torps now.

 

Both Midway and Hakuryu have about equal time in their post-nerf states as each other.

The difference is that Hakuryu depends on its torpedoes as its primary damage dealing weapon system while the Midway relies on its HE bombs. 

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

That doesn't matter.  This is why.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Changelogs_for_World_of_Warships

CV Rework, update 0.8.0 went Live 30 January 2019.

The Hakuryu nerf hit with patch 0.8.0.1 which went Live 7 February 2019.

Midway's nerf hit 23 February 2019 with 0.8.0.3.

 

Both ships' stats have about as much time with their nerfed states as the other.  If anything, Hakuryu's stats reflect her true state a bit more because her extremely strong CV Rework Launch configuration were not in the game long before the nerf hit.  Just about a week.  So, even if we go with Midway's stats being a bit more inflated because her big nerf didn't happen until 2 weeks after Hakuryu got nerfed, Hakuryu's "nerfed" stats are still better than Midway's.

Hak's nerf was far more sever.  Midway's mainly made DDs more survivable against it.

Time will tell, but I don't think stats dating to before the nerfs are a valid way to say everything looks OK.

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1 minute ago, Helstrem said:

Hak's nerf was far more sever.  Midway's mainly made DDs more survivable against it.

Time will tell, but I don't think stats dating to before the nerfs are a valid way to say everything looks OK.

Those "pre nerf" states didn't last long on the CVs, 3 weeks tops.  Most of the stats compiled now are with their current, reduced states, 7 weeks worth right now.  And with the "reduced" Hakuryu still doing better than the pre-DB drop fix Midway, that should be telling right there.

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6 hours ago, LupusMalum said:

 

The Hakuryu needs to a consistent DOT attack, the torpedos which serve as the HAK's  Alpha attack is very mediocre at best.  The 4 torp Attack planes are slow and very easy to evade. The 2  torp Attack Planes have low alpha and an abysmal flood chance.  The AP Dive bombers are again very inconsistent. You are more likely to over pen or pen without citdaling which again has a low alpha. The Rockets planes have a decent chance to set a fire, but have low alpha and low survivability. The Hak cannot reliably defend itself against DDs much less attack because of the torps again are easily evades, the rockets planes are useless also due to past nerfs. The AP planes are also useless vs DDs because of the horrible aiming reticule and the increase chance of over pens.  The Midway HE Dive bombers have a greater consistent Alpha than any of the Haks Aircrafts. The consistent DOT fire is the icing on the cake. The Midway has a greater flood chance due to more torps in the water. The midways rocket planes hit harder and have a greater fire chance.

What I propose is that the Hak is given the ability to have a 3 Torp plane attack with a decent aim time ( Increase flood chance would be great). The AP dive bombers are increased to 4 (5 would be great) planes in an attack run. The rocket planes need a lot of help but increase the planes that make an attack run would be a good start.  I have attached 2 screenshots from a previous game and also a replay, that will aid in my discussion. I am not a good CV player by any measure but I had a decent damage output in this game. in the beginning, I tried to keep the team out of the cap while the AA bubbles thinned out. Which is why my damage output was slow to start. I appreciate the feedback.  compete

shot-19.04.13_22.16.11-0936.jpg

cen Hak.jpg

20190413_215952_PJSA110-Hakuryu_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

Wait, you're crying about 91k damage and finishing at the top of the team....as a CV?

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6 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

And despite that, Midway was still doing worse than the reduced Hakuryu.

No.  And I have some actual stats to prove it.  In the last week in NA Hakuryu has a total of 226 players that played a total of 3789 games.  They averaged a 49.6% WR and 84k damage.  This is a small player pool and will mostly represent dedicated players, with each player on average playing ~17 games this week, but in reality a few players will have played many more.

Contrast this with Midway's much healthier player pool of 608 in the same timeframe, who played a total of 10509 games, or roughly 16 each on average.  Generally speaking, smaller player pools will generally indicate one of several things-- a ship has limited access, it is played mostly by dedicated players because it is strange, difficult, or awkward, but will have solid stats as a result of those dedicated players, or it is extremely weak or the player base doesn't understand it well yet and it will likely transition towards case two.  Hak's access is not appreciably limited versus Midway's, and yet its playerbase and games played are roughly a third each, despite the fact that Midway possesses a higher winrate even with its more diluted playerbase at 50.55%, and higher average damage at just shy of 88k.

Those numbers seem very different from the ones you pulled?  Yeah, because that's how worthless WoWS-Numbers is for this stuff-- that's how much these numbers change with patches and how badly represented they often are by total averages.  It's all indicative of just how truly insane Hak's performance was at the start, and how many people jumped onboard to play it as a result (and subsequently jumped ship as it became extremely weak).  Hak isn't just a bit weak, though, Midway (and to a lesser extent Lexington) are simply too strong.

For reference, this data and a lot more can be pulled pulled from MapleSyrup.  The site is pretty obtuse to use but it not only directly polls wargaming's API for this data, it also splits the data by region and shows last week and last two months as separate blocks so you can actually compare trends and the effects of recent changes.

Edited by Sturmgrunder
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5 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Those "pre nerf" states didn't last long on the CVs, 3 weeks tops.  Most of the stats compiled now are with their current, reduced states, 7 weeks worth right now.  And with the "reduced" Hakuryu still doing better than the pre-DB drop fix Midway, that should be telling right there.

  Haze, the Hak pre-nerf hammer turned in huge damage numbers and was played by many.  Now in the post nerf hammer time-frame, it's not played as much and the damage potential is not near to what it use to achieve.  So your stats pulled are skewed, it should only shows the post nerf results.

  I'm not advocating it go back to the original 8.0 CV rework, but it was hit with 5 big nerfs at once (torp activation, torp aim, rocket plane aim time,  aiming movement disruption sensitivity,  torp flooding chance).  All these really specifically hurt/aimed at the Hak (but did affect T8/10...not T4/6).  It was a WG knee jerk reaction to it over-performing.

  All WG really had to do to specifically tone down the Hak was the torp activation/aim time/range, but with the others it just made it into a "not fun" to play ship. 

  Under the current state of CVs, the Midway is the more reliable damage dealer with it's dive bombers alpha and all-around tougher planes which can press the attack.  The Hak has a very difficult time pressing an attack.

vr,

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7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Hakuryu looks to be doing alright from the stats I pulled 8 hours ago.

O6k2c2K.jpg

Kinda scratching my head around the fact that none of the CVs except Audacious have a win rate above 50%.

If there are always carriers on both sides of the match, one side has to win and the other side has to lose right? 
Those 48%~ win rates for both Hakuryu and Midway don't seem to add up and I doubt it's because Audacious is stealing all the wins since we never even see those in a match.

Anyone with an explanation to where all the missing wins went for these WoWs stats?

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7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The Midway and Hakuryu stats with the dates beside the name are the Pre-CV Rework Stats.

The rest are CV Rework stats.

 

I already know what you're going to say, i.e. the state of Hakuryu at launch of the CV Rework and how she got nerfed, i.e. the torpedo bombers.  Midway TBs also got nerfed not long after.

 

Hakuryu: "Significant changes have affected the alternative plane torpedo module for Hakuryu. The attack run preparation is now longer, and more difficult - the parameters of the aiming were changed and the angles of the torpedo spread were increased even when aiming is at its most accurate. In addition, the speed of aircraft when returning to the aircraft carrier is reduced and the delay before the start of a new attack is increased. We have significantly changed the characteristics of torpedoes: reduced speed, increased detection radius and arming time."

 

Midway: "Due to the excessive efficiency on account to the large number of torpedoes in the attack flight, the attacking potential of Midway's torpedo bombers is reduced: their torpedoes have been replaced with weaker ones (the maximum damage is now 4,233 instead of 5,367) and the chance of flooding is reduced. Other parameters remain unchanged."

 

Tier X Midway is using Tier IV Langley Torps now.

 

Both Midway and Hakuryu have about equal time in their post-nerf states as each other.

Which is why you should chose Audie before they kick it between the propellers as well.

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7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The Midway and Hakuryu stats with the dates beside the name are the Pre-CV Rework Stats.

The rest are CV Rework stats.

 

I already know what you're going to say, i.e. the state of Hakuryu at launch of the CV Rework and how she got nerfed, i.e. the torpedo bombers.  Midway TBs also got nerfed not long after.

 

Hakuryu: "Significant changes have affected the alternative plane torpedo module for Hakuryu. The attack run preparation is now longer, and more difficult - the parameters of the aiming were changed and the angles of the torpedo spread were increased even when aiming is at its most accurate. In addition, the speed of aircraft when returning to the aircraft carrier is reduced and the delay before the start of a new attack is increased. We have significantly changed the characteristics of torpedoes: reduced speed, increased detection radius and arming time."

 

Midway: "Due to the excessive efficiency on account to the large number of torpedoes in the attack flight, the attacking potential of Midway's torpedo bombers is reduced: their torpedoes have been replaced with weaker ones (the maximum damage is now 4,233 instead of 5,367) and the chance of flooding is reduced. Other parameters remain unchanged."

 

Tier X Midway is using Tier IV Langley Torps now.

 

Both Midway and Hakuryu have about equal time in their post-nerf states as each other.

Not even close. Midway DBs can delete DDs from the game while Hak has to send wave after wave with rockets. The time saved between the two is insurmountable if the Midway uses a kill DDs first strategy. Dead DDs = uncontested caps = Midway wins.

 

Edited by _Caliph_
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1 hour ago, hyuuu said:

Kinda scratching my head around the fact that none of the CVs except Audacious have a win rate above 50%.

If there are always carriers on both sides of the match, one side has to win and the other side has to lose right? 
Those 48%~ win rates for both Hakuryu and Midway don't seem to add up and I doubt it's because Audacious is stealing all the wins since we never even see those in a match.

Anyone with an explanation to where all the missing wins went for these WoWs stats?

A guess would be those numbers are for all game played, including co-op where the players are learning to play and losing some games.  There are no enemy CVs in co-op.

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