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misanthrope0

Bring CV vs CV fighting back

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In at least a plane level. Let CV's not mount rockets and let these planes operate as fighters and fly faster. Let them take a strafe consumable instead of the horribad AI fighters with agro. Them stand back and let the fur fly.

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How about reverting to patch 0.8.0 and maybe add you suggestion...

As CV are atm,  I dont think it will add anything to the current improvised CV meta.

But you never know.

 

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How about no?

As far as I personally am concerned this carrier rework can go to hell; I'm not much beyond the distance needed to play 'My Heart Bleeds for You,' on the world's smallest violin, from openly hoping the rework fails utterly.

At the same time though; go back to active carrier sniping and Strafe? SCREW THAT.

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Nah. I think the Fighters consumable needs to be improved for both CVs and surface combatants, but that's about it.

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In my opinion the biggest issue pre-rework WAS the fact that carriers could fight each other. The better carrier just stomped the other, so one team had all the air support

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I'm a bit puzzled as to why some people like the idea of returning to 1 CV dominating the match so much.

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29 minutes ago, misanthrope0 said:

In at least a plane level. Let CV's not mount rockets and let these planes operate as fighters and fly faster. Let them take a strafe consumable instead of the horribad AI fighters with agro. Them stand back and let the fur fly.

The trouble with having fighters, given the current playstyle for CVs, is that it would essentially be a world of warplanes mini game inside world of warships.

5 minutes ago, _1204_ said:

In my opinion the biggest issue pre-rework WAS the fact that carriers could fight each other. The better carrier just stomped the other, so one team had all the air support

While I understand your point, I would disagree with your conclusion.  Every carrier is equal, it is the captains that make the difference.  If your own air power can't effectively help counter the red air power, I would say it is a poor game design.  I am sure the BBs would prefer it if the red BBs weren't effective against them.

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6 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

Every carrier is equal, it is the captains that make the difference.  If your own air power can't effectively help counter the red air power, I would say it is a poor game design.  I am sure the BBs would prefer it if the red BBs weren't effective against them.

Exactly what I was saying. Poor game design gave the better carrier a huge advantage. If you get outplayed in a BB, no biggie. You still have the whole enemy to deal with. I'd you get outplayed in a CV, the enemy pretty much had free reign. 

 

No other class could manage a WR in the low 30s or high 20s... but with CVs it was possible pre-8.0

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While I’d like to see fighters tweaked a bit, I have no interest in going back to the bad old days from before the rework. 

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1 hour ago, Carrier_Ikoma said:

I'm a bit puzzled as to why some people like the idea of returning to 1 CV dominating the match so much.

Its a veiled CV complaint. The player wants the CVs fighting each other all round and believes this will allow him/her to play without CV interference.

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1 hour ago, Carrier_Ikoma said:

I'm a bit puzzled as to why some people like the idea of returning to 1 CV dominating the match so much.

 

3 minutes ago, Your_Ship_Is_On_Fire said:

Its a veiled CV complaint. The player wants the CVs fighting each other all round and believes this will allow him/her to play without CV interference.

Pre-rework CVs were rare. Post-rework they are common. To people who are against CVs, this is the most important thing. Lets disregard the fact that while CVs are more influential overall in the current iteration of the game (since they are common in matches and players need to consider building for AA), they are much less influential in any individual battle than they were under RTS.

CVs are just more annoying now, with the high number of weaker sorties, but they are arguably less dangerous since they cannot nuke you at will.

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This can be a very slippery slope.

 

One one hand it's nice to have CVs being more direct and countering opposing aircraft, shooting up bomber groups and all that.  When I played my CVs in the Pre-Rework days, I liked having a high fighter presence covering my team's DDs at the caps, because DDs always get focused by CVs at the start of the game.  The other issue is just like how things were before the CV Rework.  The better players will wipe the skies clear of the opposing CV and establish dominance.  Even in the current "regenerating hangars" mechanic of the game, getting your squadrons ripped apart still depletes your reserves and the CV has to then spend a lot of time to recover and be relevant again.  During that time, the better CV player will do whatever he wants.

 

Basically, it's going to widen the gap between the good and bad CV players much more than it does right now.  This can go a lot of ways.  This isn't something like a good BB player one one team and a bad one on the other.  They may not even engage each other.  But CVs squared off with each other, whether they wanted to or not because they were dealing with the same airspace, same contested areas.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Strafes are what made bad (most) players not want to play CV and a part of why rework happened. People dont want anything but simple easy gameplay and struggle with even that. Unfortunately fighters and cv v cv is just not going to happen.

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1 minute ago, Kebobstuzov said:

Strafes are what made bad (most) players not want to play CV and a part of why rework happened. People dont want anything but simple easy gameplay and struggle with even that. Unfortunately fighters and cv v cv is just not going to happen.

Then the option to not play against CVs needs to happen.  Any unit without a counter should be an optional unit to play against.  It's quite simply unfair.  Life isn't fair but a game isn't life.

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15 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

Strafes are what made bad (most) players not want to play CV and a part of why rework happened. People dont want anything but simple easy gameplay and struggle with even that. Unfortunately fighters and cv v cv is just not going to happen.

Yes.  In the old system, Strafe got people deplaned.  The CV may still be there but literally cannot do anything because all the planes are gone.  Then the better CV player has established Air Superiority for the team and was completely free to spot, strike as he saw fit.  For example, VII Kaga had a godly attack power with all her TBs, so many torps in the water that even DDs had immense trouble not getting nuked by the sea of torps.  But all that attack power means nothing if Saipan just deplaned Kaga.

 

With regenerating hangars and direct air-to-air combat, you can't permanently shut down a CV anymore, but you can take them out of the picture for a good while.  It's just like a CV making bad bombing runs and getting their planes shredded by AA.  Only this time an opposing CV could take that fight directly to the other CV player's aircraft and rip them apart.  The former example requires the bad CV player to go somewhere and do something stupid.  The latter is trouble coming to find your planes where ever they may be at and ripping them apart.  People may like this, depending on their POV and whether they got the better CV or not.

 

It's cool a.f. when you got that Unicum CV player on your team in the old days deplaning the enemy CV and establishing dominance.  It's not as cool when you got the Potato CV driver that got deplaned and is non-factor for the rest of the game, all while you watch the enemy CV player do what he wants.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's cool a.f. when you got that Unicum CV player on your team in the old days deplaning the enemy CV and establishing dominance.  It's not as cool when you got the Potato CV driver that got deplaned and is non-factor for the rest of the game, all while you watch the enemy CV player do what he wants.

What's not cool AF is, now, when both CV drivers potato or not get do what they want to whomever they want wherever they want.

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2 hours ago, _1204_ said:

Exactly what I was saying. Poor game design gave the better carrier a huge advantage. If you get outplayed in a BB, no biggie. You still have the whole enemy to deal with. I'd you get outplayed in a CV, the enemy pretty much had free reign.

There is a very serious flaw in your logic on this.  By not having meaningful (player controlled) fighters CVs have free reign all game, every game.  At least in with the RTS version the CV players had to earn it, now they get it for free. 

1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

One one hand it's nice to have CVs being more direct and countering opposing aircraft, shooting up bomber groups and all that.  When I played my CVs in the Pre-Rework days, I liked having a high fighter presence covering my team's DDs at the caps, because DDs always get focused by CVs at the start of the game.  The other issue is just like how things were before the CV Rework.  The better players will wipe the skies clear of the opposing CV and establish dominance.  Even in the current "regenerating hangars" mechanic of the game, getting your squadrons ripped apart still depletes your reserves and the CV has to then spend a lot of time to recover and be relevant again.  During that time, the better CV player will do whatever he wants.

The problem with the old strafe was it was designed to be punishing.  It doesn't have to be that way.  There is no reason player controlled fighters can't be made to be more balanced by limiting the potential to completely deplane the opposing CV player(s). 

1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Basically, it's going to widen the gap between the good and bad CV players much more than it does right now.  This can go a lot of ways.  This isn't something like a good BB player one one team and a bad one on the other.  They may not even engage each other.  But CVs squared off with each other, whether they wanted to or not because they were dealing with the same airspace, same contested areas.

Adding player controlled fighters would still only allow you to control one squadron at a time.  This would help keep the better CV players in check by limiting them to focusing on damage or defending with fighters at any given time.  On the flip side the weaker CV players are only doing one thing at a time too, no longer multi-tasking they wouldn't be sitting ducks to the good CV players.  Again, assuming the fighters are more balanced than the old RTS system, player controlled fighters are a no brainer option to help balance CVs.  

Edited by Slimeball91

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4 hours ago, Your_Ship_Is_On_Fire said:

Its a veiled CV complaint. The player wants the CVs fighting each other all round and believes this will allow him/her to play without CV interference.

Nothing veiled about it. Currently CV' have nothing to worry about as direct counter to their physical ship. AA keeps them from attacking each other and DD's can't get anywhere near them without being focused. So they might as well battle it out in the skies. I think the idea of two CV's being left at the end of the match because everything else is dead which I have seen as an outcome too many times is ridiculous and takes the pressure off them dominating ships with repeated attacks.

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7 hours ago, CommodoreKang said:

Then the option to not play against CVs needs to happen.  Any unit without a counter should be an optional unit to play against.  It's quite simply unfair.  Life isn't fair but a game isn't life.

Yeah but therw is a counter. AA despite its hot and cold nature. And your maneuverability. Unless you think I should be able to opt out of seeing dds in my battleship because I cant counter a torpedo.

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Just now, Kebobstuzov said:

Yeah but therw is a counter. AA despite its hot and cold nature. And your maneuverability. Unless you think I should be able to opt out of seeing dds in my battleship because I cant counter a torpedo.

If you thinks it's a hard counter.  Fantastic.  I'm sure that helps make it seem fair. It's not though.  It's not even really a soft counter because it has to let strikes through.  But if you want to call it a soft counter, that's fine.  The hard counter to a DD is radar and killing it.  The majority of DDs have to get reasonably close to torp things.  That means that if someone spots it, you can probably shoot at it.  You also have the options of charging the DD or running from the DD.

A CV can sit in a corner and spam planes the entire game.  And until you can get to that corner there is no hard counter to their damage or spotting.  You can't shoot them.  You can't charge them.  And you can't run from them.

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I'm not necessarily for a 1 v 1 CV deathmatch at the beginning of every battle with the winner determining which team gets air support for the rest of the game but i do think that CVs should be just as susceptible to air attack as any other ship in the game.  If they are alone they are weaker and if they are in a group or a part of the overlapping scheme they are better protected.  Currently it seems they have a force field around them and it is basically a no fly zone.  Not great design imo.

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If WG wanted CVs to be more risky to play, then they would add a maximum operating range to the CV, say 17km, and also fix their concealment so they aren't spotted out at 17km, which is part of why it's hard to play in a forward position as a CV.

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8 hours ago, CommodoreKang said:

What's not cool AF is, now, when both CV drivers potato or not get do what they want to whomever they want wherever they want.

Not quite.  Because the Potato CV wouldn't know how to do effective strikes and likely send his planes against ships that he shouldn't have.

 

You wouldn't believe the amount of times CVs have gone after my obvious AA ships like Atlanta, Cleveland, Des Memes, High Tier USN BBs, etc.  Those ships have a high AA reputation, yet here come the planes.  The funniest sh*t was watching a Tier VI CV send their planes against my Alabama.

"Are you for reals?" was what I always thought :Smile_veryhappy:

 

I remember watching many Potato Tier VII Saipans still do poorly even with another CV opponent being totally inept in trying to stop them.

giphy.gif

 

I used to troll with non-obvious AA ships to be an AA trap, like Lyon and especially Gneisenau.  I'd spec them for AA and catch them, swatting their planes thinking these were bad AA ships.  But I excuse them, because I baited them to do that.  There's guys that will send their Tier VII-VIII planes against a very healthy Worcester, Des Moines, etc.  Those guys I just laugh about.

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