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Imperial_Magnate

GZ feedback

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I have been anxiously awaiting the release of the Graf Zep for a while and have played 7 games in it today. My experience with it has been... horrible. While there is a lot to learn about how it differs in play from the USN line (which I mostly played), the performance gap is clearly evident. Taking damage as a basic metric I average 96k damage in the Saipan, 91k in the Enterprise, and a meager 73k with the GZ.

The rocket planes are slow and feel like they are made of wet paper, even when facing equal or lower tiered ships. I haven't ran into a Mino yet but I get the feeling it wouldn't even be able to get a single attack before all the planes were dead. Their max speed is equal to the *cruising* speed of the Saipan or the Enterprise. The pen on them is nice but against most things I can only get off 1 pass, maybe 2, before they are so damaged another pass would just be all losses.

The dive bombers feel great but have horrible results. They suffer from two main issues; 1) AP bombs are generally inferior to HE bombs. HE bombs can effectively hurt DDs, AP cannot. HE bombs require less details with angle or alignment to the ship while still putting out great damage. To do similar damage with AP requires citadel hits, which is iffy even on a stationary target due to RNG. Add onto that someone actively maneuvering and it's a considerable challenge. 2) Only 2 bombs. Enterprise drops 6 bombs (35,400 potential dmg), Shokkaku drops 3 bombs (22,800 potential damage) and the GZ has a paltry 2 bombs (14,000 potential damage). Yes the GZ has an easier drop pattern to score hits with but it drops so few bombs a good GZ drop is about equal to a decent drop with the other two, but lacks the extra potential to deal more damage with skillful play so the best they can output is "meh" damage.

Torp bomber feel good but only a bit more then my USN ones and certainly not enough to make up for vastly underwhelming rockets and bombers.

Saipan has T10 planes with horrible plane recharge, with skillful play to manage planes it handles just fine.

Enterprise has fast plane regen with decent torps, rockets, and AP bombs with potential. Plus it has double sized fighter drops (10 vs 5).

GZ has hybrid Tiny Tims/HVARs with gutted speed and health, decent torps, and AP bombs with a cool drop pattern but horrible damage output. 

Am I missing something here or is the GZ just a bad ship?

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AFAIK, no, GZ is better than Shokaku, but they all pale in comparison to Lexington.

GZ has the really fast torpedo bombers that don't run out as fast as Saipan and that's its main selling point.

Edited by MrDeaf

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At this point it is just a bad ship.

The bombers are fairly fast, and the ship itself is tough with good self defense armament. But the planes are fragile and their damage has been nerfed to hell. Fast means you can outrun some fighters and scout well, but tier X (and most IX and even US VII-VIII) guaranteed AA damage just melts them.

I am so sorry for your purchase.

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9 minutes ago, Telastyn said:

At this point it is just a bad ship.

The bombers are fairly fast, and the ship itself is tough with good self defense armament. But the planes are fragile and their damage has been nerfed to hell. Fast means you can outrun some fighters and scout well, but tier X (and most IX and even US VII-VIII) guaranteed AA damage just melts them.

I am so sorry for your purchase.

I feel like if they just bumped up the HP a bit and turned it's attack runs from 4 runs of 2 planes to 3 runs of 3 planes it would help immensely. It is amusing to be able to outrun fighters, although you cannot outrun them forever and that hardly compensates for all of it's other flaws.

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She's not the easiest CV to drive, but you can get her to work.

 

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I find her to be a horrible disappointment. The bombs are useless on anything smaller than a BB. 2 bombs dropping parallel just straddle most cruisers or overpen. The torp planes are great but good luck hitting ANYTHING with those slow a$$ torps. I actually don’t mind the rockets but the simply melt T9 or higher. I’m sure I’m not using her to her full potential but I’ll be going back to my Kaga and use GZ for display in my port. What a bust.

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I like her, but she's not without her difficulties. They really need to change her dive bombers to sortie in flights of three, not two. As it stands, they're marginal weapons at best and utterly worthless most of the time. Truth be told, I end up using her fighters where I'd use the dive bombers of other non-UK CVs, and mostly relegate her bombers to scouting and spotting.

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She's definitely different. The AP bombs are great for getting citadels, but those individual hits are just so underwhelming. When I see a citadel ribbon I'd like to see the target's health drop more than what a Tiny Tim run from Midway would do. The torps are good, but all these different arming times and speeds that different CVs have just keep throwing off my aim. The rockets feel nice and punchy despite having only a two plane flight, though the speed on those Me 155As is just... Blegh. I'm getting Seafire flashbacks. Poor, poor Seafires... .

Anyway, it's also rather amusing to me that the fastest planes in the entire game are Graf Zeppelin's bombers, where every other carrier has fighters as their fastest squadron.

This is definitely a ship that takes some getting used to, but I think I like her.

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1 hour ago, Imperial_Magnate said:

I have been anxiously awaiting the release of the Graf Zep for a while and have played 7 games in it today. My experience with it has been... horrible. While there is a lot to learn about how it differs in play from the USN line (which I mostly played), the performance gap is clearly evident. Taking damage as a basic metric I average 96k damage in the Saipan, 91k in the Enterprise, and a meager 73k with the GZ.

The rocket planes are slow and feel like they are made of wet paper, even when facing equal or lower tiered ships. I haven't ran into a Mino yet but I get the feeling it wouldn't even be able to get a single attack before all the planes were dead. Their max speed is equal to the *cruising* speed of the Saipan or the Enterprise. The pen on them is nice but against most things I can only get off 1 pass, maybe 2, before they are so damaged another pass would just be all losses.

The dive bombers feel great but have horrible results. They suffer from two main issues; 1) AP bombs are generally inferior to HE bombs. HE bombs can effectively hurt DDs, AP cannot. HE bombs require less details with angle or alignment to the ship while still putting out great damage. To do similar damage with AP requires citadel hits, which is iffy even on a stationary target due to RNG. Add onto that someone actively maneuvering and it's a considerable challenge. 2) Only 2 bombs. Enterprise drops 6 bombs (35,400 potential dmg), Shokkaku drops 3 bombs (22,800 potential damage) and the GZ has a paltry 2 bombs (14,000 potential damage). Yes the GZ has an easier drop pattern to score hits with but it drops so few bombs a good GZ drop is about equal to a decent drop with the other two, but lacks the extra potential to deal more damage with skillful play so the best they can output is "meh" damage.

Torp bomber feel good but only a bit more then my USN ones and certainly not enough to make up for vastly underwhelming rockets and bombers.

Saipan has T10 planes with horrible plane recharge, with skillful play to manage planes it handles just fine.

Enterprise has fast plane regen with decent torps, rockets, and AP bombs with potential. Plus it has double sized fighter drops (10 vs 5).

GZ has hybrid Tiny Tims/HVARs with gutted speed and health, decent torps, and AP bombs with a cool drop pattern but horrible damage output. 

Am I missing something here or is the GZ just a bad ship?

I have the Saipan and Kaga (both purchased quite a while ago) and bought the Enterprise today.  I held off on the  GZ because I don't have a CV captain to put in her, and I'm kinda glad I did.

Some thoughts.

1. While I agree that HE bombs are more flexible, AP bombs (not specifically the GZ's AP bombs and DBs, mind you) can be quite useful.  However, it really helps if an AP DB CV has good rocket planes so that you have a good anti-DD option.  If you're stuck with AP bombs and weak rocket planes, you're in a bit of a bind vs DDs.

2. It would be nice if the Saipan's plane replenishment rate was somewhat better to offset her small number of active planes.  Otherwise, she's a good CVL.  The rockets are a pain vs DDs, but the HE DBs are an acceptable alternative.

3.  Hard to complain about the Enterprise.  Her planes may not be as good individually as those on the Saipan, but at least she has plenty of them with a good replenishment rate.  And the rocket planes use the small rockets that are good vs DDs which makes up for the AP bombs that aren't.

4. The Kaga is sorta-kinda like the Enterprise.  A big Fleet Carrier with lots of planes.  Her torp planes are probably her best weapon.

I hope that the GZ gets some rebalancing later down the road.  I understand that "someone" has to be the weakest tier 8 CV, but it'd be nice if she wasn't so uncomfortable sounding.

 

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2 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

She's definitely different. The AP bombs are great for getting citadels, but those individual hits are just so underwhelming. When I see a citadel ribbon I'd like to see the target's health drop more than what a Tiny Tim run from Midway would do. The torps are good, but all these different arming times and speeds that different CVs have just keep throwing off my aim. The rockets feel nice and punchy despite having only a two plane flight, though the speed on those Me 155As is just... Blegh. I'm getting Seafire flashbacks. Poor, poor Seafires... .

Anyway, it's also rather amusing to me that the fastest planes in the entire game are Graf Zeppelin's bombers, where every other carrier has fighters as their fastest squadron.

This is definitely a ship that takes some getting used to, but I think I like her.

Yeah, that is profoundly weird.  

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shot-19_04.12_22_06.41-0049.thumb.jpg.20aedd312847f925f7453299598178d3.jpg

 

Only played one in mine so far! 

 

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1 hour ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

28 torp hits?! I’m doing it wrong

Torp acceleration is a must without it never gonna hit anything. And he had a large chunk of flood damage as 28 torp hits even on light TDS ships isnt close to 120k dmg. 28 hits at around 3k each is only about 85k dmg.

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3 hours ago, Imperial_Magnate said:

I have been anxiously awaiting the release of the Graf Zep for a while and have played 7 games in it today. My experience with it has been... horrible. While there is a lot to learn about how it differs in play from the USN line (which I mostly played), the performance gap is clearly evident. Taking damage as a basic metric I average 96k damage in the Saipan, 91k in the Enterprise, and a meager 73k with the GZ.

The rocket planes are slow and feel like they are made of wet paper, even when facing equal or lower tiered ships. I haven't ran into a Mino yet but I get the feeling it wouldn't even be able to get a single attack before all the planes were dead. Their max speed is equal to the *cruising* speed of the Saipan or the Enterprise. The pen on them is nice but against most things I can only get off 1 pass, maybe 2, before they are so damaged another pass would just be all losses.

The dive bombers feel great but have horrible results. They suffer from two main issues; 1) AP bombs are generally inferior to HE bombs. HE bombs can effectively hurt DDs, AP cannot. HE bombs require less details with angle or alignment to the ship while still putting out great damage. To do similar damage with AP requires citadel hits, which is iffy even on a stationary target due to RNG. Add onto that someone actively maneuvering and it's a considerable challenge. 2) Only 2 bombs. Enterprise drops 6 bombs (35,400 potential dmg), Shokkaku drops 3 bombs (22,800 potential damage) and the GZ has a paltry 2 bombs (14,000 potential damage). Yes the GZ has an easier drop pattern to score hits with but it drops so few bombs a good GZ drop is about equal to a decent drop with the other two, but lacks the extra potential to deal more damage with skillful play so the best they can output is "meh" damage.

Torp bomber feel good but only a bit more then my USN ones and certainly not enough to make up for vastly underwhelming rockets and bombers.

Saipan has T10 planes with horrible plane recharge, with skillful play to manage planes it handles just fine.

Enterprise has fast plane regen with decent torps, rockets, and AP bombs with potential. Plus it has double sized fighter drops (10 vs 5).

GZ has hybrid Tiny Tims/HVARs with gutted speed and health, decent torps, and AP bombs with a cool drop pattern but horrible damage output. 

Am I missing something here or is the GZ just a bad ship?

Many remember the GZ when it was OP. I must ask are the comparisons being made to the old version GZ or to other post rework CV's?

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I must ask are the comparisons being made to the old version GZ or to other post rework CV's?

The just before rework GZ was hilariously, laughably overpowered.

The just after rework GZ was... pretty strong but challenging to play. Once I got my aim down with TB I could pretty comfortably do 100k and at times get ~30 hits when top tier. The dive bombers were decent because the targeting was more consistent once you got a feel for the drop angles, and the fighters were good as far as fighters go (because you could fire, turn, fire again on same target) even if they did less damage and were just as RNGy. But the planes still were still weak. So if you couldn't dodge flak, you lost a squadron. If you flew anywhere near a mino, you lost a squadron. You lost planes to pretty much anything so had to pick your targets and get out fast (just like today).

Then they (rightfully) nerfed return to carrier which was vital to all of those "lose a squadron" scenarios. Then fighters got slower targeting so they couldn't target dds effectively or the same target (assuming they lived), and the dive bombers had their targeting and damage nerfed. And then torp bombers had increased targeting time, and decreased damage, and then the flooding change happened, and then the torp damage got nerfed again (and the rocket damage buffed). So the skill tests are still there but not the rewards.

These days I don't even take her out. All the work dodging flak and picking targets and aiming torps gets me 55k as bottom tier (which is almost all the time as tier 8) unless I can catch a yammy or kurfurst and flood them. The Lex, Implacable, or even Shokaku are easier to play and yield nearly double the damage. It's sad, but the way things are.

Edited by Telastyn
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1 hour ago, kgh52 said:

Many remember the GZ when it was OP. I must ask are the comparisons being made to the old version GZ or to other post rework CV's?

Im just comparing GZ to other currently reworked CV.  Compare her DB to any other T8 cv and they are the worst in all but speed, even with a double cit they do barely more then a HE db drop and the HE db are far easier to get 10-15k dmg since GZ db rarely hits both bombs let alone 2 cits.   Her fighters compared to others arent the worst but close to it, while their dmg and pen is good their health is so low they get vaporized before they can do much.  Torpedo planes speed is by far the best, allowing you to get in a bunch of attacks, problem is they lack dmg vs other torp planes coming in last in dmg.

DB - Worst of the T8 cv even though they are hella fast.  Just lack in dmg ability.

Fighters - Near bottom of T8 only Kaga i think is worse.  They are slow, which is surprising if they were fast like rest of her planes they might be good.

Torp planes - Middle of the pack due to slow torp speed and crap dmg.  

Edited by JToney3449
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I got my Graf from a crate today, and so far she's been rather unique to play.  I can't make a good judgement on power level so far, but here's what I've found:

1)  The insane speed of the TBs means I often end games with the full 16 plane compliment on deck.  The planes fly extremely fast, so by the time the temporary immunity to continuous damage after the drop wears off your remaining planes are well into the long range aura and safe.  I regularly get all three drops off with survivors from every run.
2)  The DBs are horribly inconsistent due to their perfectly circular drop zone.  It also seems like the bombs have poor sigma compared to Shokaku's AP bombs.
3)  Despite the inconsistency of the DBs, they have excellent pen, can be used from any angle and have no prep time when dropping.  So while the results are inconsistent, getting the planes on target is simple.
4)  TURNAROUND SPEED.  Probably the most underrated aspect so far, but GZ gets much more runs with all her planes over the course of a game assuming you don't suicide them.  Sure the damage either is low or inconsistent, but you get many many shots at it.  You can also respond immediately to targets of opportunity.
5)  You can't punish DDs as effectively as other CVs.  Your slow planes are actually very nimble so getting fully aimed shots on DDs is quite easy.  But the low number of planes per attack and low speed means you'll can easily use up 2 TB runs worth of time doing so.

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1 hour ago, Telastyn said:

These days I don't even take her out. All the work dodging flak and picking targets and aiming torps gets me 55k as bottom tier (which is almost all the time as tier 8) unless I can catch a yammy or kurfurst and flood them. The Lex, Implacable, or even Shokaku are easier to play and yield nearly double the damage. It's sad, but the way things are.

agreed, just came out of a battle like that with Graf. If you want to win, you have to accept a gruelling and tedious (costly) game of cat and mouse versus dds, expensive attacks on other ships, and very modest dmg results, (most of the time).

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Here is what I find with GZ. 

Fighters are ok... I straight up use them on BB and CL CA. Just go in from stern to bow etc. Never from the side. Pretty accurate and avg 5 to 6k.. just don't send full squad ever. They won't last for second strike near any decent aa ship.

As for TB. You need to play it differently than IJN or USN.  Zoom and boom works pretty well.   Find the clearest path for the strike on the way in and out. Don't bother turning back until you are more than 6 km away after you drop the trop. The key is to use the speed to get in and out of AA bubble asap find a new entry and go again 

DB..  notice how the bomb spread and usually miss when you go straight in from the bow or stern?  Try plan your attack from the side. If you time drop right. Both bomb will hit often. 

The GZ is not bad. The planes survives better than enterprises in t10 games because you can get out of the AA bubble faster. As long as you don't charge into 3+ ships. You will be fine.

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Graf is  one of the strongest  t8 cv even after  nerf. She just plays different than US , and ijn counterparts. 

Bombs are alittle underwhelming  but hit are very consistant once you get use to drops1 hit 7k 2 bomb hits 14k

Torps are zoom in zoom out speed boost drop close. Very fast just use them smart and don't wipe your torp groups.

Fighters are slow but good avrg fighters, very avrge

Used correctly her floor is high and so is her ceiling. Just don't Rambo your squads into AA find the stragglers and make them pay Burn, flood roation and when it's broken AP bomb them for multiple 14k hits till death and repeat.

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3 hours ago, OppressorUnion said:

Graf is  one of the strongest  t8 cv even after  nerf. She just plays different than US , and ijn counterparts. 

Bombs are alittle underwhelming  but hit are very consistant once you get use to drops1 hit 7k 2 bomb hits 14k

Torps are zoom in zoom out speed boost drop close. Very fast just use them smart and don't wipe your torp groups.

Fighters are slow but good avrg fighters, very avrge

Used correctly her floor is high and so is her ceiling. Just don't Rambo your squads into AA find the stragglers and make them pay Burn, flood roation and when it's broken AP bomb them for multiple 14k hits till death and repeat.

Except those bombers only get 7k vs a quarter of your enemies in a normal game, and the flood chance on torps is pitiful. 

The only time she is one of the strongest t8s is when you're paired down and can just hammer away at Queen Elizabeths and loner Bismarcks. 

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