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Maine_ARC_1

The Real Issue With CV Play, And A Solution

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So I have been personally racking my head over CV play. Personally, I am a cruiser player, but I have some CV experience (Which is why I dare write this). My job is to provide support to all my teammates, which includes carriers. In pursuit of trying to figure out how to best help a CV on my team do his job, I came across what I guess you could say is some sort of epiphany. As a cruiser, the only thing I can do to support my carrier is to beat back the hordes of ships coming to my cap circle, and of course, use Defensive Fire and Fighter Aircraft consumables to stop incoming CV waves at him. But, this kind of support really doesn't feel direct, since it heavily overlaps my other "duties" as a cruiser, plus my own personal protection and non-selfish goals of AA handiwork and teamplay. This is where the epiphany comes in:

How do you support a sniper?

At that moment it hit me. The issue with CV play is that the class itself is a poorly implemented sniper class that literally has all the issues a sniper class could ever have in a game. I kinda began to break down, in my head, the pro's and con's of CV play along with the game itself, and came to a few conclusions.

1. Classes have a job: DD's are the games scout class, Cruisers are the games Assault/attack class, BB's are the games tank class, and CV's are the games sniper class. If every added, Subs would be the games assassin class. These are what we would call a MOBA, or multiplayer online battle arena, designations. Each type of ship has a role, a job, a purpose. They may vary between units but they can each perform the same basic functions. These classes also need to counter each other uniquely in order to have dynamic gameplay. This leads to point 2.

2.  Counterplay is everything: A cruiser can spam a Battleship with HE, while a Battleship can return with devastating alpha strikes; A BB can push a flank and make cruiser flee out of range to support DD's, but DD's can spot the battleships and launch torpedoes to counter the push, and give cruisers light of sight with the enemy so they can retreat to a stronger position, ect ect. What can a CV do? It may attack isolated targets or even targets in a crowd, but all the enemy ship can do is just let some AI system respond, and can only really do something with 2 different pertaining buttons (defensive fire and catapult fighter). Compared to every other class, the level of commitment of each player is lopsided. One can press 1, maybe 2 buttons and move there ship and rely on a dice roll system while the other has total control of how they enter the engagement. The counter play just isn't there. The best counterplay is when you have options that bounce back and forth between both players of the same or different class where skill plus decision making of each individual determines the outcome of the situation. The minute any decision involved in that is in the hands of any 3rd party the whole concept of counterplay turns fairly mute. 

3. CV's are a poorly designed sniper class: People dislike snipers in the first place, it's the nature of them. In war, Snipers, Self Propelled Artillery, Strategic Bombers, and Carriers are all the exact same thing, packaged differently and with there respective nuances. Each of them can shoot the enemy with a minimal chance of retaliation, however there design for this makes them physically vulnerable. However, many fantastic games have learned to properly make a sniper class. The maps we have are inherently bad for snipers because everyone is literally on the same plane, the ocean. Snipers can't position themselves up high or down low. Snipers normally can move quicker but also have weak armor, while a CV's armor profile and HP is more akin to that of a Cruiser with a BB health pool, which is basically a cruiser that can take 2 extra hits, while moving like a cross between a BB and a CA/CL. Both of these factors are why (from a video game perspective) CV's get these "magical guns". An aircraft squadron is a CV's turret, the attack run is the CV's aim, and the shot is the ordinance drop; which is why a CV by nature is obtuse to the rest of surface ships, once again from a video game perspective.

4. Furthermore, CV weapons can be aimed with much more precision than the other classes despite RNG based mechanics, but the RNG level of mechanic is what makes playing a sniper, or CV for that matter, irritating. Sniper classes are also annoying because, with most games, they either punish too much or too little and countering them is a challenge. In this game, shooting down aircraft is essentially the same thing as shooting at a sniper in a nest but aiming so you literally shoot the trigger off the sniper rifle; so now the sniper can just go get a new gun. If he hits you with it and you are in a crowd, you won't be as hurt as if you are alone in a field of flowers. This essentially allows a crude and watered down version of spawnkilling as well, and a design rule of a sniper class is that if it can easily spawnkill, and the spawnkills aren't related to the enemy teams skill, the sniper needs to get toned back a smidge in power. To relate back to point 2, this makes the interaction between ships annoying. A CV runs over at the start of a match and hits your ship in a crowd for 3k, but you shred his squadron. He comes back 2 more times and finishes the job. You don't feel like you counter played, you feel like you got spawnkilled. Oh, and while you got killed, his aircraft spotted enemy ships way before the DD's got a chance to when in real life any sniper like unit relies on recon/intelligence/scouting before being usable. (NO, CV'S CAN NOT ACTUALLY SPAWNKILL IN A LITERAL SENSE, I AM USING THE WORD FOR AN EASY EXAMPLE, DON'T GO INTO HYSTERIA MODE).

I guess sitting on this, I tried to think of a solution. One that makes CV's a lot more like an actual sniper class. The biggest hindrance to this is the nature of the maps, as snipers like cover for shooting.
So I came up with what I guess you could say is a plausible/possible solution to enhance the dynamics of CV play. All of these bullet points are part of the same solution, just broken down for readability.

1. CV Squadron speeds need to be reduced. They should not be able to prance around the map at lightning speed. 100 knots or so on average would be a good trial speed for them, as aircraft are inherently faster than surface ships, but surface ships shouldn't be outpaced 5 times their speed. 2 to 3 times their speed would be fairly more appropriate. AA would also have to be respectfully adjusted to deal with such a situation. 

2. CV Ships themselves need to have better physical concealment. Yes, I do not like the idea of a CV being this large island that is as stealthy as an ant in a parking lot, but we don't have a multi-level terrain that allows for hiding cover. CV's having slower squadrons need to get closer, so lowering concealment without penalty to the player would be nice.

3. Allow CV's to use the repair and fighter consumable at there own discretion, with universal consumable access to each from each squadron and ship control interface. People can figure them out, that is what tier 4 cv's and co-op games are for. If you want your CV to heal or your CV to launch a self-defense fighter, it should be your call.

4. The CV can only spot for himself but can update the minimap for last known positions previously spotted ship every 5 to 7 seconds if that ship is undetected but spotted by carrier aircraft. This means a CV would have to tail a ship for 5 to 7 seconds within spotting range for the minimap to update and would mean that following said ships would expose aircraft to AA fire but allowing them to spot in situations where each team is depleted of teammates.

5. CV's should get a spotter aircraft consumable with 1 charge per squadron type that is only available 5 minutes before the match ends, usable to spot for the team for a 1-minute duration within a radius. This would allow each CV to still provide utility in spotting at the end of a match for allies while not being able to have an overwhelming air presence in spots.

6. CV's should be able to "lock on" to an enemy target by manually pressing X, much like other classes. When a CV locks on a target, incoming AA of other ships would be reduced by 15%, but the AA of the locked on ship would extend by 2 km for each layer. This would mean the player could still attack ships in a crowd, but would have to focus on one ship. If a ship at the last minute breaks the lock, then the aim of the aircraft would be stuck in the most inaccurate aim possible for the squadron until the attack is made or the aircraft time out. This would stop any blind-fires of a CV sneaking up on someone, and make interaction more 1 on 1 and force a CV to pick a target each time. Surface detection ranges for surface ships would have to be raised back up, for this part, but it would give a CV a chance to mitigate AA bubbles. CV's would not get a lead indicator for attacks.

I understand that this sounds rather...far fetched, but I think decently it could work. CV's need to become more like an actual sniper to work, period. Right now they are a mobile spawn point for flying turrets, not a ship launching aircraft. That is the problem with CV. It isn't anything to do with CV's not being compatible, it has to do with CV's not fulfilling there roll correctly. Even if the first 4 parts of my proposal were applied, I think we would see a way better CV environment where sniper fire is actual sniper fire and not dice rolls for flying turrets.


 

Edited by Maine_ARC_1
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The only thing that has a realistic chance to consistently kill a CV is another CV.  Therefore, CVs must counter each other.  If you can't have CVs countering each other then you can't have CVs in the game.

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2 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

The only thing that has a realistic chance to consistently kill a CV is another CV.  Therefore, CVs must counter each other.  If you can't have CVs countering each other then you can't have CVs in the game.

Snipers shooting other snipers is problematic. My first and third point of my solution is part of CV vs CV play issue, which is part of the general play as well. Every class should be able to strike every class equally. Some may do more damage than others, but each need to have scratch on each other.

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8 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

The only thing that has a realistic chance to consistently kill a CV is another CV.  Therefore, CVs must counter each other.  If you can't have CVs countering each other then you can't have CVs in the game.

Alternatively, players need to be able to choose loadouts so they can suppress the opposing CV with fighters instead of merely being toxic cancer damage vehicles. That would bring back the chess game. 

But it is too late to save CVs. The devs simply want artillery and there is no way around it. That's why they are the most coddled type in the game...

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1 minute ago, Maine_ARC_1 said:

Snipers shooting other snipers is problematic. My first and third point of my solution is part of CV vs CV play issue, which is part of the general play as well. Every class should be able to strike every class equally. Some may do more damage than others, but each need to have scratch on each other.

Snipers that can snipe with impunity most of the game are far more problematic.  CVs countering each other has many problems.  CVs with no counter break the game every game.

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Just now, Taichunger said:

Alternatively, players need to be able to choose loadouts so they can suppress the opposing CV with fighters instead of merely being toxic cancer damage vehicles. That would bring back the chess game. 

But it is too late to save CVs. The devs simply want artillery and there is no way around it. That's why they are the most coddled type in the game...

Yeah, at the bare minimum, you need some way to pressure the CV. 

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1 minute ago, Taichunger said:

But it is too late to save CVs. The devs simply want artillery and there is no way around it. That's why they are the most coddled type in the game...

No, it is not too late to save CV's. If the community gives up and decides to stop being the change they want to see, then it's a group problem.
 

 

2 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

Snipers that can snipe with impunity most of the game are far more problematic.  CVs countering each other has many problems.  CVs with no counter break the game every game.

We already have snipers that can snipe with impunity. Them landing a hit or not is a different story, but they can still be a sniper.

CV's countering each other has only the issues of damage. DD's get reduced damage vs BB calibers, what says that a CV can't get reduced damage when attacked by another CV?

CV's have many counters. Right now they are all just really lacking in potency to be meaningful counterplay.

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7 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

The only thing that has a realistic chance to consistently kill a CV is another CV. 

The idea that somebody should be able to consistently kill something else in this game is  a consistently weird religious ideal people seem to have in this game.

Nobody owes you a kill.

Nobody owes you not dying.

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1 minute ago, Taichunger said:

But it is too late to save CVs. The devs simply want artillery and there is no way around it. That's why they are the most coddled type in the game...

I'm not convinced of that. I do feel that they are finding their way with CVs as we go along here and that's fine by me. CV's are a critical element to fit into the matrix, either your ace (Pearl Harbour), or your Fail (Midway etc). It's not an easy task the developers have here. A more realistic prep and load out of planes on the deck rather than instantly appearing and taking off etc. CV CAP to counter strikes against planes on deck above all etc. All sorts of things that could be better represented and handled, some of which already mentioned in this thread.

And Maine a fine thought-provoking thread, keep it up. +1 You have to know they are wrestling with the CV conundrum as we speak. All the grief they cause me aside, I really value their presence in the game (I don't play them for reasons I have stated elsewhere) and look forward to their evolution in game terms. Hell I may even try my hand at them again (I love the Kaga).

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Just now, Maine_ARC_1 said:

CV's have many counters. Right now they are all just really lacking in potency to be meaningful counterplay.

It's your thread, so I'll just leave with you this parting question:

"How do you stop a CV from sending planes at you?"

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Just now, CommodoreKang said:

It's your thread, so I'll just leave with you this parting question:

"How do you stop a CV from sending planes at you?"

That is what I try to address in this proposal. The only way to make a sniper stop shooting you is to become an unappealing target. This system aims at solving that. The sniper should not be able to spot, it should just shoot. That's it's goal. It's the nature of a sniper. There is no changing that nature without another rework. WG has also said no to a handful of things, so you have to work within the lines of what they have given us.

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27 minutes ago, Maine_ARC_1 said:

So I have been personally racking my head over CV play. Personally, I am a cruiser player, but I have some CV experience (Which is why I dare write this). My job is to provide support to all my teammates, which includes carriers. In pursuit of trying to figure out how to best help a CV on my team do his job, I came across what I guess you could say is some sort of epiphany. As a cruiser, the only thing I can do to support my carrier is to beat back the hordes of ships coming to my cap circle, and of course, use Defensive Fire and Fighter Aircraft consumables to stop incoming CV waves at him. But, this kind of support really doesn't feel direct, since it heavily overlaps my other "duties" as a cruiser, plus my own personal protection and non-selfish goals of AA handiwork and teamplay. This is where the epiphany comes in:

How do you support a sniper?

At that moment it hit me. The issue with CV play is that the class itself is a poorly implemented sniper class that literally has all the issues a sniper class could ever have in a game. I kinda began to break down, in my head, the pro's and con's of CV play along with the game itself, and came to a few conclusions.

1. Classes have a job: DD's are the games scout class, Cruisers are the games Assault/attack class, BB's are the games tank class, and CV's are the games sniper class. If every added, Subs would be the games assassin class. These are what we would call a MOBA, or multiplayer online battle arena, designations. Each type of ship has a role, a job, a purpose. They may vary between units but they can each perform the same basic functions. These classes also need to counter each other uniquely in order to have dynamic gameplay. This leads to point 2.

2.  Counterplay is everything: A cruiser can spam a Battleship with HE, while a Battleship can return with devastating alpha strikes; A BB can push a flank and make cruiser flee out of range to support DD's, but DD's can spot the battleships and launch torpedoes to counter the push, and give cruisers light of sight with the enemy so they can retreat to a stronger position, ect ect. What can a CV do? It may attack isolated targets or even targets in a crowd, but all the enemy ship can do is just let some AI system respond, and can only really do something with 2 different pertaining buttons (defensive fire and catapult fighter). Compared to every other class, the level of commitment of each player is lopsided. One can press 1, maybe 2 buttons and move there ship and rely on a dice roll system while the other has total control of how they enter the engagement. The counter play just isn't there. The best counterplay is when you have options that bounce back and forth between both players of the same or different class where skill plus decision making of each individual determines the outcome of the situation. The minute any decision involved in that is in the hands of any 3rd party the whole concept of counterplay turns fairly mute. 

3. CV's are a poorly designed sniper class: People dislike snipers in the first place, it's the nature of them. In war, Snipers, Self Propelled Artillery, Strategic Bombers, and Carriers are all the exact same thing, packaged differently and with there respective nuances. Each of them can shoot the enemy with a minimal chance of retaliation, however there design for this makes them physically vulnerable. However, many fantastic games have learned to properly make a sniper class. The maps we have are inherently bad for snipers because everyone is literally on the same plane, the ocean. Snipers can't position themselves up high or down low. Snipers normally can move quicker but also have weak armor, while a CV's armor profile and HP is more akin to that of a Cruiser with a BB health pool, which is basically a cruiser that can take 2 extra hits, while moving like a cross between a BB and a CA/CL. Both of these factors are why (from a video game perspective) CV's get these "magical guns". An aircraft squadron is a CV's turret, the attack run is the CV's aim, and the shot is the ordinance drop; which is why a CV by nature is obtuse to the rest of surface ships, once again from a video game perspective.

4. Furthermore, CV weapons can be aimed with much more precision than the other classes despite RNG based mechanics, but the RNG level of mechanic is what makes playing a sniper, or CV for that matter, irritating. Sniper classes are also annoying because, with most games, they either punish too much or too little and countering them is a challenge. In this game, shooting down aircraft is essentially the same thing as shooting at a sniper in a nest but aiming so you literally shoot the trigger off the sniper rifle; so now the sniper can just go get a new gun. If he hits you with it and you are in a crowd, you won't be as hurt as if you are alone in a field of flowers. This essentially allows a crude and watered down version of spawnkilling as well, and a design rule of a sniper class is that if it can easily spawnkill, and the spawnkills aren't related to the enemy teams skill, the sniper needs to get toned back a smidge in power. To relate back to point 2, this makes the interaction between ships annoying. A CV runs over at the start of a match and hits your ship in a crowd for 3k, but you shred his squadron. He comes back 2 more times and finishes the job. You don't feel like you counter played, you feel like you got spawnkilled. Oh, and while you got killed, his aircraft spotted enemy ships way before the DD's got a chance to when in real life any sniper like unit relies on recon/intelligence/scouting before being usable. (NO, CV'S CAN NOT ACTUALLY SPAWNKILL IN A LITERAL SENSE, I AM USING THE WORD FOR AN EASY EXAMPLE, DON'T GO INTO HYSTERIA MODE).

I guess sitting on this, I tried to think of a solution. One that makes CV's a lot more like an actual sniper class. The biggest hindrance to this is the nature of the maps, as snipers like cover for shooting.
So I came up with what I guess you could say is a plausible/possible solution to enhance the dynamics of CV play. All of these bullet points are part of the same solution, just broken down for readability.

1. CV Squadron speeds need to be reduced. They should not be able to prance around the map at lightning speed. 100 knots or so on average would be a good trial speed for them, as aircraft are inherently faster than surface ships, but surface ships shouldn't be outpaced 5 times their speed. 2 to 3 times their speed would be fairly more appropriate. AA would also have to be respectfully adjusted to deal with such a situation. 

2. CV Ships themselves need to have better physical concealment. Yes, I do not like the idea of a CV being this large island that is as stealthy as an ant in a parking lot, but we don't have a multi-level terrain that allows for hiding cover. CV's having slower squadrons need to get closer, so lowering concealment without penalty to the player would be nice.

3. Allow CV's to use the repair and fighter consumable at there own discretion, with universal consumable access to each from each squadron and ship control interface. People can figure them out, that is what tier 4 cv's and co-op games are for. If you want your CV to heal or your CV to launch a self-defense fighter, it should be your call.

4. The CV can only spot for himself but can update the minimap for last known positions previously spotted ship every 5 to 7 seconds if that ship is undetected but spotted by carrier aircraft. This means a CV would have to tail a ship for 5 to 7 seconds within spotting range for the minimap to update and would mean that following said ships would expose aircraft to AA fire but allowing them to spot in situations where each team is depleted of teammates.

5. CV's should get a spotter aircraft consumable with 1 charge per squadron type that is only available 5 minutes before the match ends, usable to spot for the team for a 1-minute duration within a radius. This would allow each CV to still provide utility in spotting at the end of a match for allies while not being able to have an overwhelming air presence in spots.

6. CV's should be able to "lock on" to an enemy target by manually pressing X, much like other classes. When a CV locks on a target, incoming AA of other ships would be reduced by 15%, but the AA of the locked on ship would extend by 2 km for each layer. This would mean the player could still attack ships in a crowd, but would have to focus on one ship. If a ship at the last minute breaks the lock, then the aim of the aircraft would be stuck in the most inaccurate aim possible for the squadron until the attack is made or the aircraft time out. This would stop any blind-fires of a CV sneaking up on someone, and make interaction more 1 on 1 and force a CV to pick a target each time. Surface detection ranges for surface ships would have to be raised back up, for this part, but it would give a CV a chance to mitigate AA bubbles. CV's would not get a lead indicator for attacks.

I understand that this sounds rather...far fetched, but I think decently it could work. CV's need to become more like an actual sniper to work, period. Right now they are a mobile spawn point for flying turrets, not a ship launching aircraft. That is the problem with CV. It isn't anything to do with CV's not being compatible, it has to do with CV's not fulfilling there roll correctly. Even if the first 4 parts of my proposal were applied, I think we would see a way better CV environment where sniper fire is actual sniper fire and not dice rolls for flying turrets.


 

This isn't an DnD style MMO. It's warships. Classes perform plausibly similar to their real life counterparts. CV s were and are strong in real life, ergo, they are strong in game.

 

Just now, Maine_ARC_1 said:

That is what I try to address in this proposal. The only way to make a sniper stop shooting you is to become an unappealing target. This system aims at solving that. The sniper should not be able to spot, it should just shoot. That's it's goal. It's the nature of a sniper. There is no changing that nature without another rework. WG has also said no to a handful of things, so you have to work within the lines of what they have given us.

The CV isn't a sniper. It's a CV.

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1 minute ago, _Caliph_ said:

This isn't an DnD style MMO. It's warships. Classes perform plausibly similar to their real life counterparts. CV s were and are strong in real life, ergo, they are strong in game.

 

The CV isn't a sniper. It's a CV.

Oh I agree, BUT, this game is entertainment. Things have to give. I totally understand what you are saying, but the issue with CV is about fun. You can not have historical accuracy, or nods, while also having a balanced game, and both being 100% congruent. Historical accuracy stops where game balance starts. The CV in this game, with this game being entertainment, is a sniper. A sniper prays on weak targets, as do CV's. This is an acceptance of the facts in front of us. I would like a CV to be a CV, but that went away when RTS died. A CV isn't a CV anymore, it's a sniper. The game design is already at the point in which we have arrived at; we must work through the challenge.

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4 minutes ago, Maine_ARC_1 said:

Oh I agree, BUT, this game is entertainment. Things have to give. I totally understand what you are saying, but the issue with CV is about fun. You can not have historical accuracy, or nods, while also having a balanced game, and both being 100% congruent. Historical accuracy stops where game balance starts. The CV in this game, with this game being entertainment, is a sniper. A sniper prays on weak targets, as do CV's. This is an acceptance of the facts in front of us. I would like a CV to be a CV, but that went away when RTS died. A CV isn't a CV anymore, it's a sniper. The game design is already at the point in which we have arrived at; we must work through the challenge.

Then you have no real argument just moving goalpost and fantasy crafted to support your narrative. Ships do not have to be equal to have balance. Both sides get a CV mirrored so its individual power isn't relevant to balance. If you like the power of a CV then play one. If you can't then play what you can deal with.

It's not a sniper. A sniper is a human being with a rifle. This is a ship designed to carry a swarm of armed aircraft. Not the same thing.

Edited by _Caliph_

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Just now, _Caliph_ said:

Then you have no real argument just moving goalpost and arguments crafted to support you narrative. Ships do not have to be equal to have balance. Both sides get a CV mirrored so its individual power isn't relevant to balance. If you like the power of a CV then play one. If you can't then play what you can deal with.

I would like to see an individual call out as to how I am moving the goal post.  I agree with you saying that a CV is a CV and not a sniper, but in the context of this game, that statement is no longer accurate now that RTS doesn't exist. CV is a sniper. To make it balanced, you have to be able to counter the sniper. Since you can't see him, but you can see his attacks, the counterplay needs to come through the attack system and how the CV's themselves are designed, period.

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2 minutes ago, Maine_ARC_1 said:

I would like to see an individual call out as to how I am moving the goal post.  I agree with you saying that a CV is a CV and not a sniper, but in the context of this game, that statement is no longer accurate now that RTS doesn't exist. CV is a sniper. To make it balanced, you have to be able to counter the sniper. Since you can't see him, but you can see his attacks, the counterplay needs to come through the attack system and how the CV's themselves are designed, period.

If you say it 500 more times at no point will a CV be a sniper. It's an aircraft carrier. A BB is not a tank. It's a battleship. This is not World of Warcraft.

Edited by _Caliph_

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29 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

The only thing that has a realistic chance to consistently kill a CV is another CV.  Therefore, CVs must counter each other.  If you can't have CVs countering each other then you can't have CVs in the game.

WG listened to the community on this one. Both CV players and non CV players and it's a major issue.

Dumbing down CV vs CV interaction was a mistake and one, way before rework I was vocal against.

@Maine_ARC_1 the sniper idea is slightly off. They lack the alpha and surprise factor. A better comparison would be extreme range cruisers. Something like a legendary Henry. 

the ideas for spotting are poorly thought out. As a CV player I wouldn't stay in the back and snipe. As a matter of fact my suggestion for balancing the two lines was to to decrease the detectability and reload times for us CVs to match the IJN ones.. the issue for my USN CVs was always being detected 1/2 a map away by surface ships.

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17 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

I'm not convinced of that. I do feel that they are finding their way with CVs as we go along here and that's fine by me. CV's are a critical element to fit into the matrix, either your ace (Pearl Harbour), or your Fail (Midway etc). It's not an easy task the developers have here. A more realistic prep and load out of planes on the deck rather than instantly appearing and taking off etc. CV CAP to counter strikes against planes on deck above all etc. All sorts of things that could be better represented and handled, some of which already mentioned in this thread.

And Maine a fine thought-provoking thread, keep it up. +1 You have to know they are wrestling with the CV conundrum as we speak. All the grief they cause me aside, I really value their presence in the game (I don't play them for reasons I have stated elsewhere) and look forward to their evolution in game terms. Hell I may even try my hand at them again (I love the Kaga).

I appreciate the kind words.

You also touched on why my solution, in general, is the way it is. WG already framed the square for how CV's are supposed to work. We have to move inside there lines or else we will be yelling at a brick wall.

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32 minutes ago, Maine_ARC_1 said:

So I have been personally racking my head over CV play. Personally, I am a cruiser player, but I have some CV experience (Which is why I dare write this). My job is to provide support to all my teammates, which includes carriers. In pursuit of trying to figure out how to best help a CV on my team do his job, I came across what I guess you could say is some sort of epiphany. As a cruiser, the only thing I can do to support my carrier is to beat back the hordes of ships coming to my cap circle, and of course, use Defensive Fire and Fighter Aircraft consumables to stop incoming CV waves at him. But, this kind of support really doesn't feel direct, since it heavily overlaps my other "duties" as a cruiser, plus my own personal protection and non-selfish goals of AA handiwork and teamplay. This is where the epiphany comes in:

How do you support a sniper?

At that moment it hit me. The issue with CV play is that the class itself is a poorly implemented sniper class that literally has all the issues a sniper class could ever have in a game. I kinda began to break down, in my head, the pro's and con's of CV play along with the game itself, and came to a few conclusions.

1. Classes have a job: DD's are the games scout class, Cruisers are the games Assault/attack class, BB's are the games tank class, and CV's are the games sniper class. If every added, Subs would be the games assassin class. These are what we would call a MOBA, or multiplayer online battle arena, designations. Each type of ship has a role, a job, a purpose. They may vary between units but they can each perform the same basic functions. These classes also need to counter each other uniquely in order to have dynamic gameplay. This leads to point 2.

2.  Counterplay is everything: A cruiser can spam a Battleship with HE, while a Battleship can return with devastating alpha strikes; A BB can push a flank and make cruiser flee out of range to support DD's, but DD's can spot the battleships and launch torpedoes to counter the push, and give cruisers light of sight with the enemy so they can retreat to a stronger position, ect ect. What can a CV do? It may attack isolated targets or even targets in a crowd, but all the enemy ship can do is just let some AI system respond, and can only really do something with 2 different pertaining buttons (defensive fire and catapult fighter). Compared to every other class, the level of commitment of each player is lopsided. One can press 1, maybe 2 buttons and move there ship and rely on a dice roll system while the other has total control of how they enter the engagement. The counter play just isn't there. The best counterplay is when you have options that bounce back and forth between both players of the same or different class where skill plus decision making of each individual determines the outcome of the situation. The minute any decision involved in that is in the hands of any 3rd party the whole concept of counterplay turns fairly mute. 

3. CV's are a poorly designed sniper class: People dislike snipers in the first place, it's the nature of them. In war, Snipers, Self Propelled Artillery, Strategic Bombers, and Carriers are all the exact same thing, packaged differently and with there respective nuances. Each of them can shoot the enemy with a minimal chance of retaliation, however there design for this makes them physically vulnerable. However, many fantastic games have learned to properly make a sniper class. The maps we have are inherently bad for snipers because everyone is literally on the same plane, the ocean. Snipers can't position themselves up high or down low. Snipers normally can move quicker but also have weak armor, while a CV's armor profile and HP is more akin to that of a Cruiser with a BB health pool, which is basically a cruiser that can take 2 extra hits, while moving like a cross between a BB and a CA/CL. Both of these factors are why (from a video game perspective) CV's get these "magical guns". An aircraft squadron is a CV's turret, the attack run is the CV's aim, and the shot is the ordinance drop; which is why a CV by nature is obtuse to the rest of surface ships, once again from a video game perspective.

4. Furthermore, CV weapons can be aimed with much more precision than the other classes despite RNG based mechanics, but the RNG level of mechanic is what makes playing a sniper, or CV for that matter, irritating. Sniper classes are also annoying because, with most games, they either punish too much or too little and countering them is a challenge. In this game, shooting down aircraft is essentially the same thing as shooting at a sniper in a nest but aiming so you literally shoot the trigger off the sniper rifle; so now the sniper can just go get a new gun. If he hits you with it and you are in a crowd, you won't be as hurt as if you are alone in a field of flowers. This essentially allows a crude and watered down version of spawnkilling as well, and a design rule of a sniper class is that if it can easily spawnkill, and the spawnkills aren't related to the enemy teams skill, the sniper needs to get toned back a smidge in power. To relate back to point 2, this makes the interaction between ships annoying. A CV runs over at the start of a match and hits your ship in a crowd for 3k, but you shred his squadron. He comes back 2 more times and finishes the job. You don't feel like you counter played, you feel like you got spawnkilled. Oh, and while you got killed, his aircraft spotted enemy ships way before the DD's got a chance to when in real life any sniper like unit relies on recon/intelligence/scouting before being usable. (NO, CV'S CAN NOT ACTUALLY SPAWNKILL IN A LITERAL SENSE, I AM USING THE WORD FOR AN EASY EXAMPLE, DON'T GO INTO HYSTERIA MODE).

I guess sitting on this, I tried to think of a solution. One that makes CV's a lot more like an actual sniper class. The biggest hindrance to this is the nature of the maps, as snipers like cover for shooting.
So I came up with what I guess you could say is a plausible/possible solution to enhance the dynamics of CV play. All of these bullet points are part of the same solution, just broken down for readability.

1. CV Squadron speeds need to be reduced. They should not be able to prance around the map at lightning speed. 100 knots or so on average would be a good trial speed for them, as aircraft are inherently faster than surface ships, but surface ships shouldn't be outpaced 5 times their speed. 2 to 3 times their speed would be fairly more appropriate. AA would also have to be respectfully adjusted to deal with such a situation. 

2. CV Ships themselves need to have better physical concealment. Yes, I do not like the idea of a CV being this large island that is as stealthy as an ant in a parking lot, but we don't have a multi-level terrain that allows for hiding cover. CV's having slower squadrons need to get closer, so lowering concealment without penalty to the player would be nice.

3. Allow CV's to use the repair and fighter consumable at there own discretion, with universal consumable access to each from each squadron and ship control interface. People can figure them out, that is what tier 4 cv's and co-op games are for. If you want your CV to heal or your CV to launch a self-defense fighter, it should be your call.

4. The CV can only spot for himself but can update the minimap for last known positions previously spotted ship every 5 to 7 seconds if that ship is undetected but spotted by carrier aircraft. This means a CV would have to tail a ship for 5 to 7 seconds within spotting range for the minimap to update and would mean that following said ships would expose aircraft to AA fire but allowing them to spot in situations where each team is depleted of teammates.

5. CV's should get a spotter aircraft consumable with 1 charge per squadron type that is only available 5 minutes before the match ends, usable to spot for the team for a 1-minute duration within a radius. This would allow each CV to still provide utility in spotting at the end of a match for allies while not being able to have an overwhelming air presence in spots.

6. CV's should be able to "lock on" to an enemy target by manually pressing X, much like other classes. When a CV locks on a target, incoming AA of other ships would be reduced by 15%, but the AA of the locked on ship would extend by 2 km for each layer. This would mean the player could still attack ships in a crowd, but would have to focus on one ship. If a ship at the last minute breaks the lock, then the aim of the aircraft would be stuck in the most inaccurate aim possible for the squadron until the attack is made or the aircraft time out. This would stop any blind-fires of a CV sneaking up on someone, and make interaction more 1 on 1 and force a CV to pick a target each time. Surface detection ranges for surface ships would have to be raised back up, for this part, but it would give a CV a chance to mitigate AA bubbles. CV's would not get a lead indicator for attacks.

I understand that this sounds rather...far fetched, but I think decently it could work. CV's need to become more like an actual sniper to work, period. Right now they are a mobile spawn point for flying turrets, not a ship launching aircraft. That is the problem with CV. It isn't anything to do with CV's not being compatible, it has to do with CV's not fulfilling there roll correctly. Even if the first 4 parts of my proposal were applied, I think we would see a way better CV environment where sniper fire is actual sniper fire and not dice rolls for flying turrets.


 

Since you have two numbered lists, I'll do the first one starting with 1.1 and the second list starting with 2.1.

1.1: CV, BB, CA, DDs are NOT a effing "class"!!!  They are ship TYPES!!!

1.2: Right now, CVs are good at hitting isolated targets, quick scouting, and finishing off badly damaged targets. 

1.3: face palm.  No.  Just no.

1.4: Sure, you can aim torpedoes with precision.  But that's no guarantee that those damned 35 kt torps will hit.  Or sure, you can aim DBs quite well, but sometimes you're freaking lucky to have any DBombers survive to drop even a single bomb, unless you catch a weak AA BB all by its lonesome.

 

And list two.

2.1: CV Squadron speeds.  HELL TO THE NO!!!!  CV planes are already waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too damned slow!!!  You want to get around to the side of a BB to drop torps?  It's already extremely difficult to do unless you're in a CV with particularly fast planes, and you burn your speed boost.  BBs get to fire a volley every ~30 seconds.  CVs get to fire a volley (i.e. send out a strike) a lot less often, given how long it takes to fly your planes from a safe position in the rear to wherever your target is.  If you want to remove CVs from the damned game, JUST DO IT!  This would be a massive, MASSIVE unjustified nerf.

2.2: Better CV concealment.  Sure, who wouldn't love better concealment.  But NOT as a justification for slowing down their planes and forcing CVs to operate WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too close to the enemy!!!

2.3: Manual usage of the ship's own DCP and Fighter consumables would be nice.  So would allowing them to mount premium versions of those consumables.

2.4: whatever.

2.5: No need for such additional complexity.

2.6: Again, this sounds too complex.  The game should be simpler, not more complex.

 

I don't see the CV as a sniper, which to me implies a unit that relies on stealth not on out-ranging its enemies.  To me, it's just another ship except that its weapons outrange every other ship type's weapons.  If any ship type in this game is a sniper, it's a stealthy torpedo boat DD.

 

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3 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

WG listened to the community on this one. Both CV players and non CV players and it's a major issue.

Dumbing down CV vs CV interaction was a mistake and one, way before rework I was vocal against.

@Maine_ARC_1 the sniper idea is slightly off. They lack the alpha and surprise factor. A better comparison would be extreme range cruisers. Something like a legendary Henry. 

the ideas for spotting are poorly thought out. As a CV player I wouldn't stay in the back and snipe. As a matter of fact my suggestion for balancing the two lines was to to decrease the detectability and reload times for us CVs to match the IJN ones.. the issue for my USN CVs was always being detected 1/2 a map away by surface ships.

I disagree with CV's not being congruent to snipers ingame. I say that because WG is constantly making changes so that the classes and game mechanics resemble nothing of there original status. Things like radar, hydro, smoke, and other consumables have changed to where you could say any ship using those would play differently after all those changes. I look at how WG is further developing WOWS, and I would say that Wargaming has WOWS in a state where we are seeing the CV become a sniper. A low alpha sniper is still a sniper.

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1 hour ago, Maine_ARC_1 said:

4. The CV can only spot for himself but can update the minimap for last known positions previously spotted ship every 5 to 7 seconds if that ship is undetected but spotted by carrier aircraft. This means a CV would have to tail a ship for 5 to 7 seconds within spotting range for the minimap to update and would mean that following said ships would expose aircraft to AA fire but allowing them to spot in situations where each team is depleted of teammates.

This. One of the biggest problems is the ability of a cv player to completely shut down a DD player. Hopefully WG actually takes note of these tips and tries to implement them.

 

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6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Since you have two numbered lists, I'll do the first one starting with 1.1 and the second list starting with 2.1.

1.1: CV, BB, CA, DDs are NOT a effing "class"!!!  They are ship TYPES!!!

1.2: Right now, CVs are good at hitting isolated targets, quick scouting, and finishing off badly damaged targets. 

1.3: face palm.  No.  Just no.

1.4: Sure, you can aim torpedoes with precision.  But that's no guarantee that those damned 35 kt torps will hit.  Or sure, you can aim DBs quite well, but sometimes you're freaking lucky to have any DBombers survive to drop even a single bomb, unless you catch a weak AA BB all by its lonesome.

 

And list two.

2.1: CV Squadron speeds.  HELL TO THE NO!!!!  CV planes are already waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too damned slow!!!  You want to get around to the side of a BB to drop torps?  It's already extremely difficult to do unless you're in a CV with particularly fast planes, and you burn your speed boost.  BBs get to fire a volley every ~30 seconds.  CVs get to fire a volley (i.e. send out a strike) a lot less often, given how long it takes to fly your planes from a safe position in the rear to wherever your target is.  If you want to remove CVs from the damned game, JUST DO IT!  This would be a massive, MASSIVE unjustified nerf.

2.2: Better CV concealment.  Sure, who wouldn't love better concealment.  But NOT as a justification for slowing down their planes and forcing CVs to operate WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too close to the enemy!!!

2.3: Manual usage of the ship's own DCP and Fighter consumables would be nice.  So would allowing them to mount premium versions of those consumables.

2.4: whatever.

2.5: No need for such additional complexity.

2.6: Again, this sounds too complex.  The game should be simpler, not more complex.

 

I don't see the CV as a sniper, which to me implies a unit that relies on stealth not on out-ranging its enemies.  To me, it's just another ship except that its weapons outrange every other ship type's weapons.  If any ship type in this game is a sniper, it's a stealthy torpedo boat DD.

 

I understand your viewpoint and where you are coming from. How would you like to see CV's better ballanced?

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1 hour ago, CommodoreKang said:

The only thing that has a realistic chance to consistently kill a CV is another CV.  Therefore, CVs must counter each other.  If you can't have CVs countering each other then you can't have CVs in the game.

As a cv player, I disagree with this.   My biggest concern when playing a cv is not the other cv, but the pesky cockroaches called DD's.  A good dd driver is hard to kill and if they get through there isnt much a cv can do to them resulting in the dd spotting the cv for the BB's and cruisers to get involved.....or worse yet, getting off torpedo spreads that kill me.  When I am playing cv's I am paying very close attention to the minimap and where all the dd's are and if I dont know, I go spot them with the planes.  When they do get through, i am moving and moving as fast as I can.  With all that said, we are lucky that most dd's end up dead in the first 5 mins of a battle...mostly due to poor play.  But the really good dd players?  They are a huge problem to cv players.  I am not just talking about their ability to kill the cv, but the problems they cause in caps, harrassment with torps on team mates, and potential kills of team mates.   Bottom line.....dd's are a pain in the [edited], especially if they are good.

45 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

It's your thread, so I'll just leave with you this parting question:

"How do you stop a CV from sending planes at you?"

A good cv player knows how to use fighters and proper placement of the fighters...that is one way.   There are others....if a cv player doesnt know how to use his planes properly, he can end up with very small squadrons very quickly due to.....AA.   

Finally, CV's are not a sniper.  Not even close.  They no longer can get the alpha damage of days gone by.   It takes a ton of attacks to just get close to 100k.  And kills only come from going after low life ships.  This is especially true at tier 4......and to some extent tier 6.  Tier 8 is difficult because of being uptiered to tier 10 AA.   Tier 10 requires knowledge of AA equipped ships and proper use of your fighters and planes.   While the cv's can obtain 100k+ damage regularly, it is quite difficult and requires skill.

For those of you that want to add things to cv's. keep in mind WG has already said one of their goals was to make cv's easier to play with less multi-tasking,  Adding things to the cv would require a larger dose of multi tasking and that just will not happen. 

Edited by BaronVonTom
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Just now, BaronVonTom said:

As a cv player, I disagree with this.   My biggest concern when playing a cv is not the other cv, but the pesky cockroaches called DD's.  

 

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2 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

 

Yep very well written and 100% correct.  But mid way through a battle, a good dd driver can be a huge problem to a cv.

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