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LemSat87

The overpen dilemma

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Greetings everyone,

I've been watching videos and I just can't figure out what i'm doing wrong.  I'm running the US BB line and currently play between my Texas and New Mexico...and am constantly scoring overpens on a ship that is flashing their broadside to me.  They flash that broadside and my mouth waters, thinking i'm going to score a citadel, and *BOOM* overpen…..it's quite disheartening, especially when the ship fires back and they then land a juicy citadel.  Crosshair is at the waterline and i'm getting better at leading, but I just can't figure it out.

Any tips would be appreciated.  Thanks!

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"New Mexico" and "Accuracy" are like "Oil" and "Water."

 

Shot placement is everything.  Your aim may be right but dispersion may still screw you.  Just keep at it.  Also, some BBs have inherently garbage accuracy to begin with.  You played New Mexico, OP.  If you ever try Fuso in the same tier from the IJN side of the house, it's a better world in terms of gunnery.

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You're not necessarily doing anything "wrong."  Ships that appear to be broadside often aren't.  Optical illusions.  Also, the shells you are landing may not be hitting citadel areas.  They are likely hitting superstructure or the fore/aft ends of ships which have minimal armor and nothing important inside them.  

Keep plugging away.  Until you get your lead down consistently, I advise aiming a little higher.  Slamming your shells into the upper belt will get you reliable pens but few citadels.  Your damage will get more consistent.  As you get the lead down and are able to reliably aim for particular sections of a ship, drop the aim back down to the waterline and try and farm those cits.

Good luck to you!

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I appreciate your responses!  Trying my best to improve my gameplay and not be a salty mf'er when I get blapped :)

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Hey

It's the game; I see Waaaaaaaaaaay more Over pens than ever before and I think Wargaming has messed with the BB mechanics to create this so many people cried about BB's being too powerful.  Today I played the Alsace for 106344 damage:  21 over pens, 37 pens, 2 broken shells, 21 ricochets (mostly AP), then played Jean Bart for 70,710 damage: 4 over pens, 29 pens, 15 broken shells, 1 ricochet (Mostly HE) and then Gascogne for 38, 084:  13 Over pens, 7 pens, 2 ricochets (Mostly AP) and it's one of my best over 100K ships.   The shear numbers of over pens is ridiculous, far worse than it used to be, seems to have nothing to do with aiming, broadside ships versus angled.  I shot at a broadside Alaska at 8km with Alsace and got 4 over pens (waterline shot).   Gascogne shot a near stationary Baltimore at 4km in the butt and got nothing but over pens.  This type of stuff is what will drive me from this game, its' seems to not matter with tier, what Im shooting at, even getting 4-5 pens on a DD with HE doesn't kill them.  This game no longer makes any sense.  Cruiser play is now more rewarding but even playing the Charles Martel for around 70K in a T10 game only yielded 3 fires with flags and DE.  Frustration is reaching new heights, and I ask why do I keep playing.

 

Pete

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On 4/11/2019 at 7:01 PM, LemSat87 said:

Greetings everyone,

I've been watching videos and I just can't figure out what i'm doing wrong.  I'm running the US BB line and currently play between my Texas and New Mexico...and am constantly scoring overpens on a ship that is flashing their broadside to me.  They flash that broadside and my mouth waters, thinking i'm going to score a citadel, and *BOOM* overpen…..it's quite disheartening, especially when the ship fires back and they then land a juicy citadel.  Crosshair is at the waterline and i'm getting better at leading, but I just can't figure it out.

Any tips would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Depending on the ship itself, the citadel might not be right where you're shots are hitting. Typically, you'll find it right below the funnels and the turrets, but some ships are weird. Go to the tech tree and fine the ship that's giving you trouble, and check out it's armor profile. Pay attention to how far down the cit is and just how far it spans the ship. Accuracy on the Texas and the New Mexico isn't all that great, so watch where the shells are hitting too. Might just be they're hitting where you didn't aim them 

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On 4/11/2019 at 1:05 PM, Visidious said:

Try aiming slightly higher or slightly lower than your currently doing

or more forward or more back.  i get a lot of cit hits at the stern hits where the armor  is thinner.  good when aiming at DDs...lots of times i would knock out their engines and they are dead in the water and easy kill for you  or the team.   

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I get the overpens sometimes. But how in the hell does a 203mm AP shell overpen a Yamato completely broadside to me and I’m aiming upperbelt.

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3 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

It's the game; I see Waaaaaaaaaaay more Over pens than ever before and I think Wargaming has messed with the BB mechanics to create this so many people cried about BB's being too powerful.  Today I played the Alsace for 106344 damage:  21 over pens, 37 pens, 2 broken shells, 21 ricochets (mostly AP), then played Jean Bart for 70,710 damage: 4 over pens, 29 pens, 15 broken shells, 1 ricochet (Mostly HE) and then Gascogne for 38, 084:  13 Over pens, 7 pens, 2 ricochets (Mostly AP) and it's one of my best over 100K ships.   The shear numbers of over pens is ridiculous, far worse than it used to be, seems to have nothing to do with aiming, broadside ships versus angled.  I shot at a broadside Alaska at 8km with Alsace and got 4 over pens (waterline shot).   Gascogne shot a near stationary Baltimore at 4km in the butt and got nothing but over pens.  This type of stuff is what will drive me from this game, its' seems to not matter with tier, what Im shooting at, even getting 4-5 pens on a DD with HE doesn't kill them.  This game no longer makes any sense.  Cruiser play is now more rewarding but even playing the Charles Martel for around 70K in a T10 game only yielded 3 fires with flags and DE.  Frustration is reaching new heights, and I ask why do I keep playing.

 

Pete

I'm relatively new to WOW and I have the same problem, broadside shells over-penning a BB! I mean it should at leas cause flooding then, right?

And don't get me started on accuracy, seems like just aiming for center mass would do better at point blanc range but I keep trying to hit specific targets, under turrets and bridge and shells go everywhere else!

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3 hours ago, xTrowax said:

Depending on the ship itself, the citadel might not be right where you're shots are hitting. Typically, you'll find it right below the funnels and the turrets, but some ships are weird. Go to the tech tree and fine the ship that's giving you trouble, and check out it's armor profile. Pay attention to how far down the cit is and just how far it spans the ship. Accuracy on the Texas and the New Mexico isn't all that great, so watch where the shells are hitting too. Might just be they're hitting where you didn't aim them 

True

I just got the Colorado the other day...and the first game with it I got 4 citadel hits. I'll just have to keep fooling around with it

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7 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

It's the game; I see Waaaaaaaaaaay more Over pens than ever before and I think Wargaming has messed with the BB mechanics to create this so many people cried about BB's being too powerful.  Today I played the Alsace for 106344 damage:  21 over pens, 37 pens, 2 broken shells, 21 ricochets (mostly AP), then played Jean Bart for 70,710 damage: 4 over pens, 29 pens, 15 broken shells, 1 ricochet (Mostly HE) and then Gascogne for 38, 084:  13 Over pens, 7 pens, 2 ricochets (Mostly AP) and it's one of my best over 100K ships.   The shear numbers of over pens is ridiculous, far worse than it used to be, seems to have nothing to do with aiming, broadside ships versus angled.  I shot at a broadside Alaska at 8km with Alsace and got 4 over pens (waterline shot).   Gascogne shot a near stationary Baltimore at 4km in the butt and got nothing but over pens.  This type of stuff is what will drive me from this game, its' seems to not matter with tier, what Im shooting at, even getting 4-5 pens on a DD with HE doesn't kill them.  This game no longer makes any sense.  Cruiser play is now more rewarding but even playing the Charles Martel for around 70K in a T10 game only yielded 3 fires with flags and DE.  Frustration is reaching new heights, and I ask why do I keep playing.

 

Pete

I'm seeing a lot of talk about his recently and come to think of it....I have seen as many cits of my own lately.

Good news is, I'm not getting cit as much either.

It goes both ways.

Edited by Renuz

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Also important is that you can overpen a citadel, which happens often on light cruisers with big guns: the fuse on the shell (which weighs as much as a car and is moving well past the speed of sound) doesn't even notice the inch thick (25mm) steel plate in front of it. Or the next couple. Steel is strong, but it isn't that strong. 

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If you think NM is bad try the Bismark "yikes" sometimes her  dispersion is as bad as some tier 3 BBs...just yesterday I was shooting at the waterline of a broadside Cleveland in my Bismark at 10km and 4 shells landed 10 yards short and 4 others landed 10 yard over and past the Cleveland.. Next game I was in my NC...Have the same issue as you at times but like others here have said practice will help you improve but will not eliminate those dud games when it seem like you can not hit anything right. 

Edited by timinindiana

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8 hours ago, Legio_X_ said:

I get the overpens sometimes. But how in the hell does a 203mm AP shell overpen a Yamato completely broadside to me and I’m aiming upperbelt.

I made a similar comment & was given links to videos explaining AP & how it works. I've had one shell hit the radar antenna and got a citadel or just clip the fantail with the same results. I've also hit BB's 2 tiers above at maximum in the heaviest armor part of the enemy ship at maximum range and got overpens. This is just the opposite of how the videos explained the workings of AP. 

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10 hours ago, Renuz said:

I'm seeing a lot of talk about his recently and come to think of it....I have seen as many cits of my own lately.

Good news is, I'm not getting cit as much either.

It goes both ways.

Hey

Not really; don't you think that a well placed shot should be rewarded or if your in your BB and your close to a cruiser or another BB even that your guns should do more damage than nothing but over pens, or you shoot another BB at 16km away and yet all you get is over pens.  Especially when the game mechanics used to be such that your BB used to be able to do great damage with well placed shots but now it's easier to just shoot HE or play a cruiser simply because they are more consistent.  I think Wargaming has changed the mechanics of AP for BB's because people complained about how powerful they were, and yet they didn't tell anyone it was nerf'd for fear they would lose the BB playing population since it's such a large segment.  Either way, it's changed, just record your damage and what your shells did and see for yourself.  Now not every shot is going to be perfect, broadside and obviously a AP shot on a DD is going to over pen.  But look at the overall picture, the average seems to be around 2-3 over pen/ricochet's for each full pen.  Not to also mentioned the numbers of pen hits for no damage has increased as well.

 

Pete

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On 4/11/2019 at 4:11 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

"New Mexico" and "Accuracy" are like "Oil" and "Water."

 

Shot placement is everything.  Your aim may be right but dispersion may still screw you.  Just keep at it.  Also, some BBs have inherently garbage accuracy to begin with.  You played New Mexico, OP.  If you ever try Fuso in the same tier from the IJN side of the house, it's a better world in terms of gunnery.

Haze makes a good point about Fuso, but don't give up on NM. You can get better average damage broadsides by switching aim points to center your shot groups on the upper belt area of ships. Unsaturated decks and superstructure are juicy sources of damage & shouldn't be overlooked in the "Quest for Citadels". With New Mexico; 9-12km is ideal. The trick is not letting torp-happy small botes get closer.

On 4/11/2019 at 7:13 PM, Pope_Shizzle said:

You're not necessarily doing anything "wrong."  Ships that appear to be broadside often aren't.  Optical illusions.  Also, the shells you are landing may not be hitting citadel areas.  They are likely hitting superstructure or the fore/aft ends of ships which have minimal armor and nothing important inside them.  

Keep plugging away.  Until you get your lead down consistently, I advise aiming a little higher.  Slamming your shells into the upper belt will get you reliable pens but few citadels.  Your damage will get more consistent.  As you get the lead down and are able to reliably aim for particular sections of a ship, drop the aim back down to the waterline and try and farm those cits.

Good luck to you!

Pope_Shizzle knows.

 

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19 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

It's the game; I see Waaaaaaaaaaay more Over pens than ever before and I think Wargaming has messed with the BB mechanics to create this so many people cried about BB's being too powerful.  Today I played the Alsace for 106344 damage:  21 over pens, 37 pens, 2 broken shells, 21 ricochets (mostly AP), then played Jean Bart for 70,710 damage: 4 over pens, 29 pens, 15 broken shells, 1 ricochet (Mostly HE) and then Gascogne for 38, 084:  13 Over pens, 7 pens, 2 ricochets (Mostly AP) and it's one of my best over 100K ships.   The shear numbers of over pens is ridiculous, far worse than it used to be, seems to have nothing to do with aiming, broadside ships versus angled.  I shot at a broadside Alaska at 8km with Alsace and got 4 over pens (waterline shot).   Gascogne shot a near stationary Baltimore at 4km in the butt and got nothing but over pens.  This type of stuff is what will drive me from this game, its' seems to not matter with tier, what Im shooting at, even getting 4-5 pens on a DD with HE doesn't kill them.  This game no longer makes any sense.  Cruiser play is now more rewarding but even playing the Charles Martel for around 70K in a T10 game only yielded 3 fires with flags and DE.  Frustration is reaching new heights, and I ask why do I keep playing.

 

Pete

WG messed with overall AP mechanics when they did the so called 'DD ONLY NERF'.   Based on the massive increase in over pens I've seen since that patch, the developers must've made a change to ALL AP mechanics, not just DDs.  Whether on purpose or inadvertently, who knows.  Perhaps is just a side effect of the change for DDs they couldn't fix and just left it that way without telling us.  Wouldn't be the first time.

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55 minutes ago, SeaborneSumo said:

WG messed with overall AP mechanics when they did the so called 'DD ONLY NERF'.   Based on the massive increase in over pens I've seen since that patch, the developers must've made a change to ALL AP mechanics, not just DDs.  Whether on purpose or inadvertently, who knows.  Perhaps is just a side effect of the change for DDs they couldn't fix and just left it that way without telling us.  Wouldn't be the first time.

Hey

It's one thing to changes game mechanics but at least be honest and up front about it and the reasons why.  We were told in 0.8.0 that it was the carrier rework and that's what everyone thought, OK; BUT then why did they go and change the AFT decreasing everyone's AA range by 20% (just for the CV's?), but then they also go and Nerf ALL of the Carriers, BB's and Cruisers concealment also.  Oh sure, it wasn't a lot but it was still a Nerf that wasn't told to anyone and again for what purpose?   It's this lack of clarity, lack of explanation that helps to push perceptions negatively of Wargaming.  It's as bad a pumping up hype for a new ship (or ship line even), have the CC's put out video content (But is has WIP on them) and then Nerf the hell out of it just before release (Azuma comes to mind).  At one point do bean counters fail to understand people might start saying enough is enough and play something else (WOT comes to mind).

 

Pete

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On 4/11/2019 at 7:11 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

"New Mexico" and "Accuracy" are like "Oil" and "Water."

 

Shot placement is everything.  Your aim may be right but dispersion may still screw you.  Just keep at it.  Also, some BBs have inherently garbage accuracy to begin with.  You played New Mexico, OP.  If you ever try Fuso in the same tier from the IJN side of the house, it's a better world in terms of gunnery.

Spot on USN BB advice as usual, Haze. 

I might also suggest that New Mexico, although being slow in every sense possible (reload, rudder shift, top speed, turret traverse) can be effective in a close range engagement if you think wayyyy ahead about where your guns need to be pointed. Also, if you're planning on engaging just about any (non-DD) target with <5K HP left, load HE and aim at the main deck. If you only need to eek out a couple thousand damage, it's better to maximize your shotgun effect than to aim for the citadel and get screwed by dispersion. (Admittedly your mileage may vary with that tactic. I would never chastise a BB player for shooting AP at a target showing its broadside.) 

Also get used to feeling like you're "punching at thin air", since it happens from time to time, even to Yamatos and Republiques

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On 4/16/2019 at 1:48 PM, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

It's the game; I see Waaaaaaaaaaay more Over pens than ever before and I think Wargaming has messed with the BB mechanics to create this so many people cried about BB's being too powerful.  Today I played the Alsace for 106344 damage:  21 over pens, 37 pens, 2 broken shells, 21 ricochets (mostly AP), then played Jean Bart for 70,710 damage: 4 over pens, 29 pens, 15 broken shells, 1 ricochet (Mostly HE) and then Gascogne for 38, 084:  13 Over pens, 7 pens, 2 ricochets (Mostly AP) and it's one of my best over 100K ships.   The shear numbers of over pens is ridiculous, far worse than it used to be, seems to have nothing to do with aiming, broadside ships versus angled.  I shot at a broadside Alaska at 8km with Alsace and got 4 over pens (waterline shot).   Gascogne shot a near stationary Baltimore at 4km in the butt and got nothing but over pens.  This type of stuff is what will drive me from this game, its' seems to not matter with tier, what Im shooting at, even getting 4-5 pens on a DD with HE doesn't kill them.  This game no longer makes any sense.  Cruiser play is now more rewarding but even playing the Charles Martel for around 70K in a T10 game only yielded 3 fires with flags and DE.  Frustration is reaching new heights, and I ask why do I keep playing.

 

Pete

Im with you... nothing like 12 overpens to a broadside wooster from gk/monty at the waterline under 10k away to spontaneously materialize a tinfoil hat on my head... conqs short fuse has actually been a huge bonus lately over other bbs. Shells actually detonate in the citadel.

Idk... i just assume the weak armor on some ships allows shells to pass through the citadel completely without doing epic damage... i had thought it was an instant citadel if struck and penetrated but now i wonder if it can pen fully through... maybe someone with more information on the actual game mechanics knows?

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Hey

The sad part is that it never used to be this bad; I had some terrible luck in the GK at the start of CB today and switched to the Repub. and best game was 165K, other great game was 5 kills in another battle, both were wins.

 

Pete

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I agree with you SR. I don't think they have the courage to tell us the extent of the changes to avoid less activity with their most played class and hoped to pass the changes under the radar with the DD AP nerf. Sad really as I noticed it way back and it does look bad on WG. It's frustrating. Some will  stop playing and paying - quietly. 

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8 hours ago, dice33 said:

I agree with you SR. I don't think they have the courage to tell us the extent of the changes to avoid less activity with their most played class and hoped to pass the changes under the radar with the DD AP nerf. Sad really as I noticed it way back and it does look bad on WG. It's frustrating. Some will  stop playing and paying - quietly. 

Hey

Yeah this isn't some thing that just happened just recently but a while back, maybe close to a year ago now and it's seems like it getting worse, small changes but noticeable.  They try to "Balance" things but end up making the gameplay more and more inconsistent; with BB's being the biggest category of players, they don't come out and say they are nerfing things.  Just like the changes I saw with the Hindenburg/Roon before the clan battles season just before they nerf'd the reload times.  It's only one second but the ship played so much different and I suspect there were other game mechanic changes that took place.  Well, then it was under performing, so they gave it an additional heal BUT it never needed that heal before that, so why did it all of sudden start under performing and need a heal?  This was about the same time Moskva got the 50mm armor, just before Stalingrad.  And now we don't see nearly as many Hindy's in clan battles as before because it's not the beast it once was, was this by design?  I think so.  We see a lot of bias against German and Japanese ships if you take the time to look.

 

Pete

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AP is fine.  I think you guys are confusing bad shot placement for bad AP performance.  There are ships, including gargantuan Battleships, that you don't hit at the right spot, it's nothing but Overpens.

 

I repeat again:  Your aim may be just fine.  But dispersion may screw you.  Even Yamato from time to time throws out salvos that make you say, "WTH was that?!?"  Even in Des Moines, I remember being in a bow on engagement, 7km or less, with a Moskva trading HE shells.  Even at those super ranges, I noticed a bad salvo where the shells flew out in a "V" formation with the shells landing on the water to the sides of Moskva.  And that's "Cruiser Dispersion."  And those are issues just to hit the ship.  Now imagine if the shells stray off, but they still hit the target.  Instead of a waterline strike you see shells scatter to the superstructure, upper hull, or whatever for regular Pen at best, Overpen maybe, or even fall into the water.

 

Also, shot placement for certain targets has to be taken into account.  You're aiming for the right spot to get a waterline Citadel but that target may not be like other ships to get such a Citadel strike.  Example is Dallas with her citadel shown below:

P02tq1m.jpg

A lot of guys will lead the ship and traditionally citadel them in the forward half, particularly underneath the two forward guns or below the forward superstructure area.  They lead the target well ahead because they don't want the shots to fall behind, so they give an extra bit of lead to prevent that.  But as you can see, against Dallas, that will get you Overpens.  You see a broadside Dallas, try to hit waterline and between the smoke stacks and then crush them.

A traditional waterline salvo pretty much anywhere will work against DM & Henri IV.

IhDtMLk.jpg

qn6bz83.jpg

But depending on the range, it may not work against Alaska, as you can see below, particularly if you have high velocity shells that fly at level arcs.

cZJcTji.jpg

 

Even against another BB target, a broadside waterline salvo is no guarantee of a Citadel.  You may even get Overpens or Bounces!

"WTH Haze, how is that possible?"

Read up on this thread where someone in his Roma (powerful AP shells) slammed a broadside Richelieu at 7.4km and got nothing but Overpens.  Read up and see why that was so:

Roma's 380mm AP is very powerful, stronger than even a number of 406mm shells in raw AP Penetration, and at that range, one should feel confident to plow through Belt Armor and get Citadel strikes against another BB.  But Richeleiu and other High Tier French BB armor schemes are deceptively tough in dealing with AP (they melt to HE DPM though).  The thread explains why.

"All or Nothing" Battleship armor schemes :Smile_trollface:

 

Aiming for and hitting the waterline is usually a safe bet for getting Citadel hits.  But as you can see, depending on RNG and the target, and engagement circumstances, that won't work out as well as one hopes for.  There are times that the best you can hope for are Penetration hits.  Take what you can.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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