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Admiral_Thrawn_1

Will there be an Italian Non Doubloon Ship?

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I was wondering if in the near future Wargaming might consider having an Italian Premium Ship available for Free XP, Coal, Steel, or earnable via an event? Because we have Free XP, Coal, and Steel available for pretty much every nation except Poland, Commonwealth, and Pan Asian. And since Italy was one of the top naval powers in the world it does make sense for them to be represented by such a ship.

Actually a little surprised Wargaming has not tried having Roma available for Coal or Steel considering despite it being great looking ship, famous history, and having good speed plus BC playstyle you really don’t seem that many running around in game. So it’s not an OP ship that will flood out the que, but could help drain Free XP, Coal, or Steel supplies from players such as myself. I would without hesitation speed 1 or 2 million Free XP for Roma if that were an option. After all Italian ship lines are said to be added within 12 months or less so having Italian captains getting trained would be good idea. And let’s face it I guess I enjoy the Battle Cruiser and fast BB playstyle a little too much. :Smile_smile:

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I believe WG tries to reserve reward ships for nations that are already out. I'm hyped for Italian BBs as much as the next guy, but I dont really feel like a coal or steel ship will happen before any lines drop. Too many people would go in blind and be disappointed, unlike the Nelson or Salem where they are unique ships but still follow a similar national flavor.

 

I'm pretty sure Roma was out before coal and steel ever entered the game, so obviously it was out of the question to begin with. 

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I was wondering if in the near future Wargaming might consider having an Italian Premium Ship available for Free XP, Coal, Steel, or earnable via an event? Because we have Free XP, Coal, and Steel available for pretty much every nation except Poland, Commonwealth, and Pan Asian. And since Italy was one of the top naval powers in the world it does make sense for them to be represented by such a ship.

Actually a little surprised Wargaming has not tried having Roma available for Coal or Steel considering despite it being great looking ship, famous history, and having good speed plus BC playstyle you really don’t seem that many running around in game. So it’s not an OP ship that will flood out the que, but could help drain Free XP, Coal, or Steel supplies from players such as myself. I would without hesitation speed 1 or 2 million Free XP for Roma if that were an option. After all Italian ship lines are said to be added within 12 months or less so having Italian captains getting trained would be good idea. And let’s face it I guess I enjoy the Battle Cruiser and fast BB playstyle a little too much. :Smile_smile:

I'm sure there will be. Patience.

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1 hour ago, _1204_ said:

I believe WG tries to reserve reward ships for nations that are already out. I'm hyped for Italian BBs as much as the next guy, but I dont really feel like a coal or steel ship will happen before any lines drop. Too many people would go in blind and be disappointed, unlike the Nelson or Salem where they are unique ships but still follow a similar national flavor.

 

I'm pretty sure Roma was out before coal and steel ever entered the game, so obviously it was out of the question to begin with. 

But some ships Wargaming adds in for coal later such as that Russian BB and the French Agile.

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

And since Italy was one of the top naval powers in the world it does make sense for them to be represented by such a ship.

First, let me say that I have no issues with Italy getting a Non-Doubloon Premium ship in there tech tree; hey, they might even deserve it.

But NOT because they were one of the TOP Naval Powers in the World. The Italian Navy first suffered from a lack of vision regarding the effectiveness of Carrier based air power, evidenced by the near total destruction of most of their ships which tried to operate further out than their land based air force could cover. That lack of insight, coupled with their fleet being geared for a WW1 style conflict rather than a WW2 conflict, handicapped them from 1939 on, and their effectiveness was, as a result, severely limited. 

And then the Brits nailed them at Taranto and that was pretty much the end of the Italian Navy's contribution to WW2.

In my opinion, in order to be a true World Class Naval Power of the First Rate, you need to be combat effective on any ocean or sea you choose to sail upon. IJN, yes; USN, yes; RN, yes; but the Regia Marina? No, not really.

Still doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see many, many more of their ships in the game.

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7 minutes ago, Umikami said:

First, let me say that I have no issues with Italy getting a Non-Doubloon Premium ship in there tech tree; hey, they might even deserve it.

But NOT because they were one of the TOP Naval Powers in the World. The Italian Navy first suffered from a lack of vision regarding the effectiveness of Carrier based air power, evidenced by the near total destruction of most of their ships which tried to operate further out than their land based air force could cover. That lack of insight, coupled with their fleet being geared for a WW1 style conflict rather than a WW2 conflict, handicapped them from 1939 on, and their effectiveness was, as a result, severely limited. 

And then the Brits nailed them at Taranto and that was pretty much the end of the Italian Navy's contribution to WW2.

In my opinion, in order to be a true World Class Naval Power of the First Rate, you need to be combat effective on any ocean or sea you choose to sail upon. IJN, yes; USN, yes; RN, yes; but the Regia Marina? No, not really.

Still doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see many, many more of their ships in the game.

I think it’s safe to say that it is top 5. 

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13 minutes ago, Umikami said:

 

And then the Brits nailed them at Taranto and that was pretty much the end of the Italian Navy's contribution to WW2.

 

When you say things like this you prove your ignorance. Taranto happened in November of 1940. Are you seriously trying to argue that the Regia Marina ceased to function at this point? Supplies magically made it to Africa how?

 

Pick up a book that isn't based of 1950s British pulp history, please. Not for me, but to do service to the sacrifice and memories of the men who fought and died for their country with honor and conviction. 

https://www.amazon.com/Naval-War-Mediterranean-Jack-Greene/dp/1848326181
https://www.amazon.com/Struggle-Middle-Sea-Vincent-OHara/dp/1844861023

Edited by Sparviero
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2 hours ago, pastore123 said:

I think it’s safe to say that it is top 5. 

IJN

USN

Royal Navy

German Navy

And here I would have put the French Navy until their surrender to Germany.

So …. No, not really top 5.

Maaaaaaaaybe top 6.

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2 hours ago, Sparviero said:

Supplies magically made it to Africa how?

I would imagine supplies made it to Africa by merchant transport, covered by German and Italian air power, and harassed by Allied air power, with naval units of the Royal Navy, USN, German Navy, and Italian Navy trying their very, very best to avoid ALL enemy air forces, as in most cases when any of them failed to do so they were badly mauled. 

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8 minutes ago, Umikami said:

IJN

USN

Royal Navy

German Navy

And here I would have put the French Navy until their surrender to Germany.

So …. No, not really top 5.

Maaaaaaaaybe top 6.

I’m not sure how the French navy even compared. 

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Just now, pastore123 said:

I’m not sure how the French navy even compared. 

That's ok, because I'm not responsible for you being unsure of yourself, or the French. (Yet they are in the game and the Italians …. ?)

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40 minutes ago, Umikami said:

That's ok, because I'm not responsible for you being unsure of yourself, or the French. (Yet they are in the game and the Italians …. ?)

Indeed you’re not. Nice play on words. One of the more powerful bb’s in the French line didn’t even make it past ballistic testing (Richelieu). Not sure how that’s even relevant.

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Nope.  Russian BBs based of drunken sketches on cocktail napkins and Comrade Stalins wet dreams are far more important than a navy of real ships that fought back and forth across the Med against the Royal Navy.  Besides, WG can't try to overcharge you for tech tree ships

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The earliest we'd get an Italian FXP Premium would be if WG ended up needing to make use of a last-minute removed design that originally was almost-finalized for release.

Nelson being the example of this. Originally T7 in the RN BB line, removed to make way for KGV after testing showed issues with both Nelson and KGV (Nelson's armor/citadel issues and KGV's 14" issues at T8+), then given a quick gimmick (Mega Heal) and then released as an FXP Premium. If I'm not misremembering, Rodney was also planned to have been the FXP Premium had the RN BB line released as initially planned, sharing almost the exact same setup as Nelson, just with a catapult plane option.

Beyond that, there's nothing WG would have on hand at this moment to release as an FXP Premium or Coal/Steel Premium, simply because WG hasn't really cemented what flavors/gimmicks they intend to give the Italian lines. Since Premium ships are usually balanced against the line by having similar yet different play styles or gimmicks, or a unique element that doesn't fit the line perfectly, it also affects what WG can charge them for.

That being said, there are a two obvious candidates that are mostly asset-reuse:

  • T6 "Giulio Cesare" / "Giunio Brutus" / "Leonardo da Vinci" - We all know that WG worked out how to rebalance Giulio Cesare at T6, and even had the option of re-releasing a T6 version of Giulio Cesare using a late-war refit, but said that they would simply sit on the idea for the time being. Depending on the degree of changes and play style, a T6 "Giulio Cesare" would be one option. The problem though is that given the lack of a line and a serious flavor/gimmick, it wouldn't be easy determining what currency she's worth. She also runs into another issue; that of the refit Andrea Doria/Caio Duilio, which would be very similar.
  • T9 Impero - Using Phoenix_jz's T9 Impero as a basis, Impero would be an ideal candidate, being Roma++. Armor-wise, she could end up similar to the Russian BBs in the sense that she'd be extremely tanky, even if she does retain a high citadel. Give her a conventional BB Repair Party and DCP consumable set, slightly more accurate Roma guns, and SAP instead of HE, and she'd be a solid T9. weaknesses would still include a high citadel (but not easy to get to), learning when to use AP or SAP shells, and lower HP (comparatively) for the tier. If anything, she'd be similar to JB in the sense that while an earlier sister is a tier lower, Impero won't need to have armor/equipment selectively omitted for tier-balance reasons, and would be a better version of her sister, a tier higher. Instead of getting a gimmick in MBRB and Speed Boost, Impero would benefit from having strong armor and solid top speed.

Another quick one would be Andrea Doria, but like mentioned, the refit is very similar to Giulio Cesare.

  • T6 Andrea Doria - Technically, Andrea Doria's refit would basically be a better version of Giulio Cesare, with slightly better armor and even more AA but a different secondary setup. Like GC, the issue is more of what play style is she expected to have, and how similar or different does WG plan to make her compared to her line equivalent. On the low end, Andrea Doria would only have modest play style differences, and be marketed as an FXP ship or single-ship branch (similar to the differences between Slava and Kreml). On the other extreme high end, she could be uptiered and gimmicked to compensate (like both Duke cruisers were).

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1 hour ago, pastore123 said:

I’m not sure how the French navy even compared. 

Well, the French were basically building to counter the Italians and Germans - Richelieu/JB were specifically supposed to counter Littorio/Vittorio Veneto (Romas) 

 

46 minutes ago, pastore123 said:

One of the more powerful bb’s in the French line didn’t even make it past ballistic testing (Richelieu).

To be fair here, it's not because they didn't want to.... It's more to do with them being invaded in 1940. 

 

I would argue USN, IJN, RN, KM, MN would be the top 5. #6 basically comes down to how you define top - Are we talking about having big ships, but never really using them (Italy), Having a bunch of big, but old ships, and only using them a moderate amount (Russia), having a bunch of small ships that just did convoy work (Canada, I'll admit this is a bit of a stretch), or just having a few ships here and there that did a fair bit of fighting (the Dutch, the Australians)?

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19 minutes ago, TheOmegaDuck said:

Well, the French were basically building to counter the Italians and Germans - Richelieu/JB were specifically supposed to counter Littorio/Vittorio Veneto (Romas) 

 

To be fair here, it's not because they didn't want to.... It's more to do with them being invaded in 1940. 

 

I would argue USN, IJN, RN, KM, MN would be the top 5. #6 basically comes down to how you define top - Are we talking about having big ships, but never really using them (Italy), Having a bunch of big, but old ships, and only using them a moderate amount (Russia), having a bunch of small ships that just did convoy work (Canada, I'll admit this is a bit of a stretch), or just having a few ships here and there that did a fair bit of fighting (the Dutch, the Australians)?

Italy just didn’t have big ships. Although it didn’t have the resources like oil or the manufacturing capabilities during the war, it was still running missions, albeit limited in capacity, but nonetheless, doing those missions. Here is a website you can check out to get a summary of the issues the Regia Marina faced: http://www.regiamarina.net/detail_text.asp?nid=296&lid=1

For me, I’d still place the Regia Marina in the top 5 because of the ships it possessed, the quality of the ships (regardless of how Il Duce had decided to utilize air power in the Mediterranean), and on the fact that they actually had a lot of different ships and ran missions in the Mediterranean. 

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In one corner you have a navy that the British spent most of their time engaging in surface battles and failed to shut down convoys. Indeed preferring to put months long delays of supplies by going around Africa to keep their own convoys safe. In the other corner you have a navy that struggled to build four destroyers. Yes, yes a completely apples to apples comparison. :cat_cool:

 

gL04uA.gif

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5 hours ago, Umikami said:

First, let me say that I have no issues with Italy getting a Non-Doubloon Premium ship in there tech tree; hey, they might even deserve it.

But NOT because they were one of the TOP Naval Powers in the World. The Italian Navy first suffered from a lack of vision regarding the effectiveness of Carrier based air power, evidenced by the near total destruction of most of their ships which tried to operate further out than their land based air force could cover. That lack of insight, coupled with their fleet being geared for a WW1 style conflict rather than a WW2 conflict, handicapped them from 1939 on, and their effectiveness was, as a result, severely limited. 

And then the Brits nailed them at Taranto and that was pretty much the end of the Italian Navy's contribution to WW2.

In my opinion, in order to be a true World Class Naval Power of the First Rate, you need to be combat effective on any ocean or sea you choose to sail upon. IJN, yes; USN, yes; RN, yes; but the Regia Marina? No, not really.

Still doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see many, many more of their ships in the game.

 

5 hours ago, pastore123 said:

I think it’s safe to say that it is top 5. 

Yeah the Regia Marina was in top 5 after RN, USN, IJN, and French Navy. Or at least this how the navies were Ranked back in the day, although might want to say top 6 since not exactly sure at the moment where Germany falls in the list.

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There were 5 nations in a position strong enough to be worth binding by the London and Washington Naval Treaties. Italy was one, being granted parity with France for tonnage. Top 5.

Come WWII the Italian Navy was vastly more impactful than the French. Even if you add Germany into the mix, you'd kick down France for Italy in a heart beat. Top 5.

 

As for Italian FXP or otherwise 'free' premiums. Sure, I think a line to go with them would be nice and it's a shame that right now France are going to get 3 lines before the Italians get 1. Say what you will, France is not 3x more deserving than Italy. I think @YamatoA150 has some good suggestions on quick and easy options. Otherwise there are plenty of candidates if you look widely enough. WG has seemed to like battleship clones, odds and ends destroyers and 'large cruisers'. Those are all possible, and I think Ansaldo had some designs for big >22,000t cruisers - which may have been available in Russian archives as I think there were potential sales.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yeah the Regia Marina was in top 5 after RN, USN, IJN, and French Navy. Or at least this how the navies were Ranked back in the day, although might want to say top 6 since not exactly sure at the moment where Germany falls in the list.

I think that in 1939, I would have rated the IJN first, the USN second (even giving it it's handicap of being a split / two ocean navy), Then the RN, Germany, and a coin toss between France and Italy (though that wouldn't last long as France would soon surrender and the Allies would begin to gang up on Italy, effectively taking both fleets out of the running for top anything other than "Fleet with the most ships at the bottom of the Med" award.) And honestly, I'm not sure Germany, without her air support and submarine fleet, could have held her own against either France or Italy in their pre-war condition in a straight up fleet battle. The German navy was designed for merchant raiding, and not for battle line action against an enemy of equal size and ability. I do admit that such a battle would be an interesting mental exercise, but given that none of the three produced and carriers, it really boils down to a Society for Creative Anachronisms sort of a battle, with no real relevance.

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